TheBob1

You know LexieCat, I think it really does boil down to the fact that I have not yet accepted the fact that she (alcoholism, she, whomever/whatever) has essentially f'd up our lives and according to you and most here, there is probably no turning back. What I'm hearing and trying to avoid with all my might is that a death (of sorts) has occurred and I can try as I may to resuscitate the "patient", but the chances are close to nil. The patient, so to speak, is brain -dead and hope is faded almost to black.

I have been fighting and grasping at straws to make it not so -and still will make any efforts I can before throwing in the towel. This is hard for me to fathom - not swallow, but even fathom that this is as far along and horrific as it appears now to be.

Naivete, ignorance, or denial - not sure which, but it feels like another family member has been caught in the clutches of cancer... The same feeling of helplessness setting in, death being all but a sure thing.

I think that's why the 200 posts and counting. The analysis paralysis. The searching...

I see but still can't believe my eyes.

honeypig

I cannot tell you how many times I've seen it said here: "When someone shows you who they are, believe them." And it's true. Absolutely true.

redatlanta

Please keep in mind that no one can decide the path of this. We all know the statistics. We see the results. We have seen spouses get on board, and not.

Lexie makes some good points that all options are painful in their own way, even recovery. That is true. I think sometimes that in trying to figure out what to do we forget we are already living in pain. So what's the difference? You started this thread because your wife threatened to acuse you of abusing her. Throughout this thread are many painful things. You already live this way Bob.

My perspective of this thread is not that everyone is telling you to accept she is a lost cause, rather to accept you cannot change her. 200 posts in you still are not.

and still will make any efforts I can before throwing in the towel". The effort you can make, which has been mentioned 100 times, you aren't doing. You are codependent. You are trying to manage and control this. You can't. If you will take the focus off of her, and put the focus on you things WILL change. You seem to think your only option is to divorce. You have boxed yourself in to this mindset. I also think longterm living with an active alcoholic is very difficult though there are people who do so and its ok for them - so the correct viewpoint is its just not ok for me. It may be ok for you, but it will never be unless you get some help with how to.

Would you consider going to a therapist that specializes in dealing with addiction within a family? This is something that all will benefit from particularly your son, even if he doesn't go and only you do.

daydreamer0217

I have not read all of the posts, too many for me but I want to say something that may **** people off, but I am going to say it anyway... take your son and get out, NOW, do not pass go, do not collect 200$ , get out. IN MY OPINION: leaving a child in a house where there is an abuse of alcohol is child abuse. Plain and simple. It is not about you and what you want and it is not about your wife, it is time to put this kid first. If you don't he will either 1 ) become an alcoholic or 2 ) marry one. if you make your son stay in this environment you are just as guilty as the wife. I know what I am talking about... trust me. get him out now, and if you arent strong enough, then find someone else to take him. someone needs to care about this boy more than anything else.

LexieCat

Well, hope for an easy, painless solution is pretty much gone. There is always hope, but not without a certain amount of pain, personal disruption, and hard work--on everyone's part.

Maybe rather than think of it as a death, think of it as a major disaster. My own analogy from my life is: I bought this house back in 2006. Older town home, but inspection showed it to be in wonderful shape. Three years after I bought it, I discovered major cracks developing in my foundation. I've spent tens of thousands in attorneys fees and engineering costs, but the bottom line is I'm screwed, in terms of easy, painless solutions. I had an appraisal recently and my house is worth less than a third of what I paid for it due to the damage. I couldn't sell it for its appraised value at this point. I can get as angry and indignant as I want to, but none of that will change the basic facts. I have a shot at getting SOME money by way of a lawsuit, but it won't make me whole financially. So all I can do is to accept the fact that I own this house with this damage, must continue to pay my mortgage (don't want to ruin my credit), and figure out a plan to repair the damage at some point.

Now, I'm not comparing the emotional pain of your situation to my financial pain as a result of this foundation problem. What I AM saying is that in both instances, there is no simple, painless solution. And ACCEPTING that is key to being able to move forward with a clear head and make the best decisions possible for the future. A lot of my decisions (planning to continue to work in retirement as long as I need to, deciding what kind of car I could afford to buy, etc.) are colored by the knowledge that I will need to get this house fixed eventually, and that it will be costly. Do I wish my choices were not overshadowed by that? Sure, but it is what it is. And the ironic, counterintuitive thing I have learned in recovery (from my relationships with alcoholics as well as my own alcoholism) is that acceptance really IS the answer to my pain.

Here's a quote from AA's Big Book that is the absolute favorite of probably 90-some percent of AA members: "And acceptance is the answer to ALL of my problems today. When I am disturbed, it is because I find some person, place, thing or situation- some fact of my life- unacceptable to me, and I can find no serenity until I accept that person, place, thing, or situation as being exactly the way it is supposed to be at this moment. Nothing, absolutely nothing, happens in God's world by mistake. Until I could accept my alcoholism, I could not stay sober; unless I accept my life completely on life's terms, I cannot be happy. I need to concentrate not so much on what needs to be changed in the world as on what needs to be changed in me and in my attitudes." Alcoholics Anonymous, page 417.

TheBob1

Not only would I consider it - contrary to so many here who seem to think I am "doing nothing", I am on two waiting lists for just such professional and have been seeing a counselor of my own weekly since this newfound chapter in my life began. While defending myself... Did I mention I am getting healthy (weight loss and exercise) and planning fun summer activities for both me AND my son... and more? In fact we just completed the first step in getting a diving (SCUBA) certification with my son, and we both loved it, thank you very much

Yes, I still need to get into an Alanon mtg I can stomach and get some "CYA" advice from a lawyer (I am on the books for an appt. for that as well). What I have regrettably NOT done yet (for reasons beyond my control) is have a good sit-down with a clear-minded spouse (a rare thing these days) who is not struggling with back pain (herniated disk) and/or under the influence of dr.-prescribed drugs for the ailment along with her self-precribed "liquid meds".

THAT is what I need to do most; And, have a strategy to give any ultimatums or "rules" some teeth. What and how to do this is probably what comprises half the 'wasted' space in this thread. That and getting my son to talk about it and how to save him going forward (another thread, maybe, and presumably many already existing ones I can peek in on...

TheBob1

Thank you for weighing in. Seems rash for my current situation but I do feel you and get your point quite well (if you read the novel-length thread, which I expect no one to do, you would know my beloved only son's interests are above my own).

I know you must have good reasons for suggesting this DayDreamer and indeed I share the fears you just noted. More than anything, I fear his going to drugs, which compared to when I was young, are a lot more addictive and dangerous.

Cutting and running won't really "work" in my case, I'm afraid. We are home - not just in the house, but the community. This is where we live. Yes, he is at risk of bad decision making with a future mate or as regards substance use going forward, but that is not enough to take such drastic steps, as much as I don't want those things for him in the future. And I'm sure such a step would end up bringing in the law, the lawyers, claims of kidnapping - - - oh God no!

TheBob1

Actually its an excellent analogy (esp. with real estate being my "401K") - thanks.

Great quote too, but I have a couple things: 1) I g o to the serenity prayer. t talks about changing things, not just accepting them (although I acknowledge you must accept before you can change - maybe that;s the point?)), and 2) Its still tough for me to swallow that I need to change, and I know you've heard it a hundred times, b/c I'm not the one who brought this on.

To anticipate your reply, I understand tis is about dealing with it and putting it in perspective for me ('me' being whomever is reading the book), not just changing what is unacceptable to me.

But yeah, "accepting" that this sh-- is here to stay - it is my reality for now and a long time going forward and screwing up my life - is really a big part of what I have been struggling with, not just what to do about it.

Uuuugh...... As many know by reading this epic-length thread, I don't always tackle life's problems in a prescribed method or order and I don't speak or know the self-help or psych lingo. Looks like "winging it" may be coming more to an end that I would care to admit, as the reason I am here is that I need help with this; And, thanks in great proportions going to those kind enough to care and speak up, I am working on it.

amy55

Bob,

Please stop "JADE"ing here. You don't need to. JADE = justify, argue, defend, explain.

Your feelings are very important here.

I hate to say this, but sometimes when a man comes here asking for help, I think we here tend to want to give more advice then ES&H. I think this is especially true because if there is domestic violence or abuse included, we really want to protect you from that. It's so hard for a man to say domestic abuse. It's so easy for a woman to change things around.

Domestic abuse/violence happens to both men and women. We know that here, but, and there is always a "but", it's hard for a man to admit it, and hard for a court to believe it.

I think that's why sometimes we push so hard here when talking to a man.

We want to be helpful, but we really also need to let you know of how things may go.

We always do push to keep yourself self, I think we do that more so then with women that come here, but it's not for the same reason. (Yes, if a woman is in an abusive situation, other advice might be given). Mostly for men, I think it's more like false charges can be filed against you, and you should document everything.

I'm really happy for you that you found this a safe place to go to, to vent when you need to, to celebrate the sometimes small things, it's like an outlet that you didn't think you would ever have. People understanding what you are going through.

We all have our own paths, our own journeys. We all do it at our own pace. I think we need to.

I for one, am really grateful that you are posting here.

((((((((((((((((((hugs))))))))))))))))))))))
amy

LexieCat

Yes, it's necessary to accept what IS and THEN figure out what is in your power to control (yourself, your own actions and words, to some extent your emotions--that's a little more advanced but there are ways to do that, too) and what is not in your power to control (the fact of your wife's alcoholism, her actions, your son's feelings). When you change your words and actions (and work on dealing with your own emotions constructively) the whole dynamic changes. Your wife won't necessarily get sober, your son won't necessarily become happy right away, but you won't be feeding into the sick dynamic. It's about keeping YOUR side of the street as healthy and sane as possible. And sometimes when the dynamic changes, other people change in response. Sometimes that response is uncomfortable for all parties in the beginning, because it's a change, and everyone gets comfortable with sameness--even when that sameness is sick. But it holds out that elusive hope you are looking for--hope for yourself and your son, and hope for your wife, too, if she chooses to avail herself of help.

LexieCat

One other thing--boundaries are good, ultimatums and "rules" are not so. Reminder: your wife is an adult--dysfunction and all. "Rules" are for kids, not for adults in their own home. Now, if YOU choose to divorce her or separate or take some other action in response to her continued drinking, THAT is a boundary--a decision on what YOU will do if your boundary is crossed. As we mentioned, there isn't anything legally you can do to her if she chooses to continue to drink. So "rules" are useless, as well as being inappropriate for adults in their own home. BOUNDARIES, on the other hand, control YOUR actions in response to their being violated. Which is why I was suggesting you have a plan B if she chooses not to quit drinking. What will you do to enforce your boundary?

jjj111

Bob, just to elaborate on this rules v. boundaries thing: a rule attempts to control someone else's behavior (which we know you can't really control), while a boundary is a statement of how YOU will behave and what you're willing to put up with. So a rule would be "my wife is not allowed to drink in the house." A boundary would be "I will not live with my wife while she is drinking. If she chooses to drink, I will consult an attorney and find a way to either move out or keep the house and she can leave." In the first case, it's about what she does, and in the second case it's about what you do. That's what Lexie is talking about when she says you have to have a plan B. Because if you tell your wife you won't live with her drinking, and she continues to drink, then you have to find a way to not live with her drinking or you're just making empty threats and not really enforcing a boundary.

Anyway, I hear you that you aren't prepared to leave right now, but it couldn't hurt to talk to a lawyer, just to know your options. I've heard you catastrophize a lot about what would happen if you did decide to try to separate yourself from the marriage--you might be charged with kidnapping, you might be forced to leave the house, might lose custody of your son, etc. Why not just get an opinion from an expert about what might actually happen, so you can consider your options based on something more realistic than your worst fears? It doesn't mean you have to pursue it.

jjj111

Sorry, I just saw that you posted that you are going to see a lawyer. I think that's a good call.

daydreamer0217

I tell you that from the viewpoint as a child that grew up in a house of abuse. I am 45 and still deal with the consequences of my mom not knowing how to leave. She did the best she could. But. She was the adult. I was the kid. It screwed both me and my sister up. So. I dont think it's extreme at all. No excuse changes that. If this continues you will be paying it back in ways you can never imagine. Financially. With therapy. Or drugs. Or alcohol. Or a pregnancy because they have a warped sense of love. I speak of what i know. But... i am here for you whatever you decide.

TheBob1

A quick thanks to you and Lexie for the explanations/clarification. I was actually a bit muddy on the distinction.

I differ a bit on whether one can make rules for an adult in their own home. I have always been of the mindset that offending behavior must yield to the non-offending (like if someone decides to start smoking in a home where no one does, they need to take it outside or stop if the others don't like it and are negatively impacted).

Besides, I see the drinking, or rather the behavior that results from the drinking, to be offensive, often childish, and DAMAGING, so why not treat the offender like a teenager? If she has to sneak around to get a buzz... GOOD! Hell, she already does anyway. Would that be degrading? Yes... GOOD!! Why should she be allowed to maintain a sense of dignity while she tears down my life and the very home she "has the right" to drink in??? I refuse to buy into the notion she "can drink if she wants". Not if it is ruining the family unit, the marriage, me, and our son (just ask the recent poster who is pushing me to dump and run asap!).

There is more than one way to skin a cat (no pun intended Lexie).

Just thinking out loud - not saying I am going to do that, but am strongly considering it. I lived with a smoker for 12+ years. I smoked too for a few years but then quit completely. I did not take a stand against continued smoking - that would have been unfair and no one but me was annoyed by it, so we came to some reasonable agreements. But should it be the same with drinking? Naaaah. I nor any habit (like smoking) ever destroyed a home life as drinking can, and in my situation now, DOES. Worst I ever did was get drunk and say stupid things and felt like an idiot the next day while I nursed a hangover.

Quick shout out to the RA's here:

DOES ANYBODY MISS HANGOVERS!?! LOL! Really, am I right? I have never wanted to be put out of my misery more than when I had a really bad hangover.

But I digress. Just talkin' now...

amy55

I think this thinking is totally off the wall. I am an RA. I was also in an abusive relationship.

You can't control another person. That person has every right to do whatever they want to do.

I know sometimes emotions get out of control also. I wanted my ex to stop drinking and stop abusing me. I could say that all that I wanted to, but if I didn't have actions behind me to stop the abuse or how I dealt with it, it would have meant nothing.

What are your action plans?

Any actions or just to keep watching. No one ever said that was wrong either.

I don't know, sometimes you find you have a big problem, you can either jump into action, or you can sit and watch. Inaction is also an action. I say this because of the many times sometimes it takes for someone to leave a relationship.

Not pushing you on anything, just here to listen to what you are talking about, and here to give you (((((hugs)))))

amy

Latte

"My son won't go with me, by the way. Just figured out today he seems to think this is my fault-because Mom said so in a very authoritative and dramatic way."

Look up Parental Alienation.

My thoughts are with you.

Latte

My ex hired a lawyer and took steps to keep the kids safe when I could not stay clean for the life of me. The lawyer who to refer the ex to to put things in place to protect our children, both physically and psychologically. I didn't hit anyone but I did do other things that endangered them. I wouldn't feel comfortable giving you his personal information, but suffice to say-a divorce lawyer will be able to help you through the system. That does not mean that they will call in the state-just direct you to where to access help, therapy, people who know how to to deal with abusers such as your wife.

LexieCat

There are cheaper options than a lawyer to access help and therapy. Lawyers charge 200+ an hour (sometimes WAY plus). I wouldn't use a lawyer for anything other than LEGAL advice. As Latte mentioned, SOME of them know that kind of info, many don't, and there are cheaper, more well-qualified people who can direct you to therapists, etc.

Bob, I totally get the frustration, but any attempt to solve your problem by treating her like an unruly teenager is going to backfire. It will not have the desired effect on her, and it is likely to have severe negative consequences for you and your son. What you are talking about are power and control tactics, which ARE considered abusive--exactly what you didn't want to be accused of. You may not LIKE the fact that she has a right to drink in her own home, but she does, in fact, have that right. An all-out battle of wills between the two of you is likely to be more damaging to your son than the alternatives you are trying so hard to avoid.

You're also forgetting/underestimating how powerful alcoholism is as a disease. This isn't a simple behavior issue, like not picking up socks or leaving the cap off the toothpaste. This is something an alcoholic is COMPELLED to do. And until she is truly ready to quit, she will find a way to do it. In addition, trying to force the situation (outside of the context of a carefully planned intervention) is likely to make her feel even more justified in continuing to drink.

daydreamer0217

I Am not pushing youto do anything except putting your child first. Somebody needs to. He needs a voice.... you just dont want to hear it