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Old 03-12-2013, 09:42 PM
  # 161 (permalink)  
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As far as remembering what it felt to be like in all kind of different altered states, I can remember that quite vividly. From alcohol, to pills, coke, meth, the subtle differences between the different anabolic steroids, the hallucinogens, etc.etc., they were all quite different. The one thing they all have in common is they take you further and further away from reality.

The human brain is not made to function in very altered states for extended periods of time and that seems to be why all substances have withdrawal profiles all their own. The brain is trying to normalize but it almost seems like it has to relearn what normal even is. I doubt I'll ever forget those feelings.
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Old 03-13-2013, 09:58 AM
  # 162 (permalink)  
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I know for me, AV chatter is no big deal. It's like when you've seen one pile of doggie-do-do, well, you've seen them all. I only look close enough not to actually step into it, lol. Do I really "look" at dog crap when I'm out and about?

No, I don't. Its barely in my awareness to enable me to step around such crap. So, hearing the same old AV again and again, can be tuned out, for me anyways. I'm completely satisfied with this arrangement everlasting.

I do realize though that many folks practicing their AVRT seek putting their AV into a complete silence, and wanting it actually to be forever silenced in many views that I have listened to over the years, not just here on SR.

I was wanting to talk about this with you guys. Who simply selectively tunes out their AV, rather then seeks to silence it? And who is dissatisfied with having a non-silenced AV?
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Old 03-13-2013, 10:55 AM
  # 163 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by RobbyRobot View Post
Like I said, YES I CAN.



So, yeah. I can remember my feelings of my intoxication, in a physical sense, not simply a mental construct. With "feelings" and "headspace"

Can't be clearer then what I've already said.

And so now what?

I'm glad that I have forgotten what that pleasure from drinking actually FEELS like.

I would think that if PhDs (Phormer Drunks) had a choice, they would say they would rather NOT be able to recall the actual sensation of pleasure created by ethanol in their blood.

So, if there were a way to accelerate that loss of memory of the pleasure, that would be a good thing. I'm not suggesting electroshock therapy, or anything that invasive. Maybe there is no way to speed it up. Maybe it's variability in different people is genetic and not life-style-based.
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Old 03-13-2013, 11:14 AM
  # 164 (permalink)  
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I'm in the ignore camp. I regard my AV as something beyond my control. If I could make it stop I would. I have to hear it, but I don't have to listen to it. I believe if I ignore it long enough it will quiet down some - but I've no control over that (and I'm not really bothered by it).
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Old 03-13-2013, 11:15 AM
  # 165 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by GerandTwine View Post
I'm glad that I have forgotten what that pleasure from drinking actually FEELS like.

I would think that if PhDs (Phormer Drunks) had a choice, they would say they would rather NOT be able to recall the actual sensation of pleasure created by ethanol in their blood.

So, if there were a way to accelerate that loss of memory of the pleasure, that would be a good thing. I'm not suggesting electroshock therapy, or anything that invasive. Maybe there is no way to speed it up. Maybe it's variability in different people is genetic and not life-style-based.
Well, speaking for myself, it looks like you're asumming I remember my past sensations as nothing but pleasure. Is that so?

I know the Beast is all about pleasure. I'm not my Beast though, I'm me. I can switch with my Beast and feel what it feels of course, but I'm still me while that switch goes on.

I recall the horrors of my sensations of being drunk and high on LSD for instance, and not "pleasure" although sometimes it feels good to feel bad, you know, like when suicidal, for those who have been there, they'll understand. Being 12 and drunk is not a happy pleasure, let me add that into the conversation.

We didn't agree last time we talked about this topic, and so we are unlikely to agree now either. No matter. We can still have a great discussion even with agreeing to disagree, yeah?

My Beast feels pleasure from alcohol and being high. I do not.

I feel like crap from alcohol and drugs. My Beast does not.

My Beast and I share feelings though on many levels of course. What I and my Beast don't agree with is who or what is actually feeling the pleasure and pain of drinking and getting high?

My Beast of course wants me to believe it was, and would be again, me feeling pleasure from drinking.

My Beast is stupid. I am not. I win.

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Old 03-13-2013, 11:21 AM
  # 166 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Nonsensical View Post
I'm in the ignore camp. I regard my AV as something beyond my control. If I could make it stop I would.

I have to hear it, but I don't have to listen to it.

I believe if I ignore it long enough it will quiet down some - but I've no control over that (and I'm not really bothered by it).
I hear you loud and clear 5x5. Selective listening. Awesome. Works for me too.
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Old 03-13-2013, 11:30 AM
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Oddly enough, selective attention is also known as the cocktail party affect. Are we learning to apply sensory input filters to neurological activity?
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Old 03-13-2013, 03:05 PM
  # 168 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by trachemys View Post
Oddly enough, selective attention is also known as the cocktail party affect. Are we learning to apply sensory input filters to neurological activity?
I dunno, are we? Perhaps some are doing as you're wondering. Perhaps not.

For me, selective listening is indicated by practicing intelligent choice in all my affairs day to day. Concentrated, directed awareness is a useful skill. I less filter my AV then I do become indifferent and eventually dissociate from IT.
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Old 03-13-2013, 06:06 PM
  # 169 (permalink)  
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Hi Robby,
I don't mean to hijack your thread, but could you tell me which book re: AVRT would be most helpful? I've been to the website and there are several.

I'm definitely an alcoholic, but I haven't had a drink in 21 years. My problem is perscription pain pills...has been for 20 years. I've had several surgeries and may possibly need another, so I have to really think about how I might handle the NEVER again philosophy. I guess AVRT would tell me that's the beast talking, don't know.

Anyway, thank-you thank-you to everyone who posts in this section. I come here daily to read and I've learned so much.
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Old 03-13-2013, 06:24 PM
  # 170 (permalink)  
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hi lovetosail,

No worries about hijacking

"Rational Recovery: The New Cure for Addiction" is THE book to define, and explain AVRT, as Jack Trimpey understands it. This book is sufficient enough to be of good use going forward. I intend on eventually reading "The Art of AVRT." I already have "The Small Book." Haven't read it as yet.

I hear you about experiencing surgeries over time. I've had more than enough myself since early childhood. Just last August, I had elective surgery re: total right leg amputated. Seems strange for it to be elective, but there it is nonetheless. At the same time I had a hip-fusion reversed. Fortunately, both have been successful, and I continue to discover ever more benefits and advantages for having had the surgery. My medical history is um, complicated, but I just wanted to say I have empathy for you, and feel free to share yourself on my thread, no problemo.

Thanks, lovetosail. Good to "meet" you. No worries.
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Old 03-14-2013, 02:05 AM
  # 171 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by RobbyRobot View Post
Well, speaking for myself, it looks like you're asumming I remember my past sensations as nothing but pleasure. Is that so?
No, but it is only the pleasure that I'm interested about here. AVRT reveals that is the ONLY reason addicted people continue to drink/use - to get that deep pleasure, however temporary it may be. That's why people cave in to the Beast, because they decide THEY want to feel that pleasure again, and they go along with IT by voluntarily going through all the complex motions needed to get the stuff into their blood.

Originally Posted by RobbyRobot
I know the Beast is all about pleasure. I'm not my Beast though, I'm me. I can switch with my Beast and feel what it feels of course, but I'm still me while that switch goes on.

I recall the horrors of my sensations of being drunk and high on LSD for instance, and not "pleasure" although sometimes it feels good to feel bad, you know, like when suicidal, for those who have been there, they'll understand. Being 12 and drunk is not a happy pleasure, let me add that into the conversation.

We didn't agree last time we talked about this topic, and so we are unlikely to agree now either. No matter. We can still have a great discussion even with agreeing to disagree, yeah?

My Beast feels pleasure from alcohol and being high. I do not.

I feel like crap from alcohol and drugs. My Beast does not.
The Voice of the Beast fades away once the substance enters the bloodstream. IT has done its job. The mind altered person is then running the show, solo, and that's when bad things may happen, though often they don't. In fact, many people who take a break from quitting very often don't have any problems while engaging in getting that deep pleasure again. In AVRT they haven't had a "slip" or a "relapse", they've just had some drinks, the first one being totally in the control of their better judgement. They've gotten that deep pleasure again, and it's paid off with nothing bad happening. People here on SR report such episodes fairly frequently.

Originally Posted by RobbyRobot
My Beast and I share feelings though on many levels of course. What I and my Beast don't agree with is who or what is actually feeling the pleasure and pain of drinking and getting high?

My Beast of course wants me to believe it was, and would be again, me feeling pleasure from drinking.

My Beast is stupid. I am not. I win.

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Old 03-14-2013, 05:00 AM
  # 172 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by GerandTwine View Post
The Voice of the Beast fades away once the substance enters the bloodstream.
This has not been my experience. Trying to manage some semblance of control before I started, I would attempt to buy a single evening's supply of alcohol. The beast is always keeping track of how much I have left. Once he sees I will run out before I pass out he tells me to make a plan to get more. Not always easy when I would have to sneak out after the wife went to bed, but before the stores stopped selling alcohol.
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Old 03-14-2013, 09:20 AM
  # 173 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by GerandTwine View Post
No, but it is only the pleasure that I'm interested about here. AVRT reveals that is the ONLY reason addicted people continue to drink/use - to get that deep pleasure, however temporary it may be. That's why people cave in to the Beast, because they decide THEY want to feel that pleasure again, and they go along with IT by voluntarily going through all the complex motions needed to get the stuff into their blood.
I agree with all the above, yes, for addicted people. It becomes a curious point though when we also consider that with total permanent abstinence we at the same time, as defined by AVRT, are in fact no longer addicted persons. Cured. Done. Kaput. We close the book on our past addiction. With AVRT there is no treatment, no maintinence. SInce I'm no longer addicted to alcoholism, using AVRT definitions, I'm not surprised I don't easily remember the pleasure of drinking, except by switching roles with my Beast, but I do very easily remember the displeasure drinking brought me, and that without switching, of course.


Originally Posted by GerandTwine
The Voice of the Beast fades away once the substance enters the bloodstream. IT has done its job. The mind altered person is then running the show, solo, and that's when bad things may happen, though often they don't. In fact, many people who take a break from quitting very often don't have any problems while engaging in getting that deep pleasure again. In AVRT they haven't had a "slip" or a "relapse", they've just had some drinks, the first one being totally in the control of their better judgement. They've gotten that deep pleasure again, and it's paid off with nothing bad happening. People here on SR report such episodes fairly frequently.
Certainly I agree the Addictive Voice fades in and out since its immediate barking is not required for IT (the Beast) to NOW feel pleasure. Having said that, the Beast (IT) doesn't fade in the least, still there being a Beast, no less or more. Alcohol does nothing to rid us of the Beast.

Nonsensical as much notes this in his short post above in this thread. My experience matches his time and time again. When my Beast felt the gravy-train was risking coming up short, absolutely I would "hear" my Beast speak to me. Was it as Addictive Voice though? Yeah, I ws deluded into thinking it was me myself, at the time. Looking back, it was all AV, from my Beast, making arrangements for me to stay wet at all costs.

As said, when I drank, I was deluded into believing that IT was ME. I had zero separation of I and IT. So did I in fact feel pleasure from alcohol, or was I in fact feeling my Beasts pleasure? For me, I was feeling my Beasts pleasure. For myself, I was feeling anything but pleasure. I was feeling all the negative effects of the alcohol on my psyche and my body.

Interesting discussion.

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Old 03-14-2013, 09:47 AM
  # 174 (permalink)  
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I agree - interesting discussion.

How do non-addicts experience pleasure from alcohol? They are having pleasure, not their beasts, yes?

IF that is the case (lots of room for discussion on that topic, I think), then I would also be capable of having a pleasant sensation from alcohol, not only my beast.

It's a moot point, since my beast's pleasure is so overwhelming I'd never be able to differentiate it during a drinking experience (or recall it). I just think it's probably still in there. The beast is additive, often overwhelming, to my normal (non-addict) brain experiences. It doesn't have the power to alter my normal brain's physiology, though.
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Old 03-14-2013, 03:43 PM
  # 175 (permalink)  
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Who simply selectively tunes out their AV, rather then seeks to silence it? And who is dissatisfied with having a non-silenced AV?

i do neither with my "av". when i hear it, i pay attention. i look at the space i'm in when "it" comes, and i assume it has everything to do with where i'm at in that moment, and nothing to do with actually wanting to drink.
it tells me something. not about wanting to drink, but about something i'm experiencing that's not feeling "right".

hm...i'm thinking much relapse prevention is linked to not dismissing or ignoring.
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Old 03-14-2013, 03:47 PM
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Rob,

i have this question for you that keeps coming up in my mind for quite a while now, and i don't know where to put it (if there's a more appropriate thread, please can you direct me to it): re the AA HP, you're saying yours is internal, and it's all an inside job.
so my confusion is around the "inside/internal" part, since my understanding was/is that HP is supposed to be exactly NOT internal, but something bigger/not you/outside of yourself. (and i'm not talking about "supernatural" here.)
any clarification i'd greatly appreciate.

what am i missing or misunderstanding here?
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Old 03-14-2013, 06:34 PM
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since my understanding was/is that HP is supposed to be exactly NOT internal, but something bigger/not you/outside of yourself.
Within the AA model, one's HP need not be supernatural, but it does need to be outside of oneself. People do it every which way there is...but I'm talking about the HP concept as it is defined by the program.

Interestingly, it was the founders' beliefs that an alcoholic DID indeed need to find God...The God of Christianity, but fearing resistance, the concept of "God of your understanding" was used instead to make it more palatable to non-believers or the unsure. The original program began as a Christian fellowship. Here nor there really, just an historical sidenote.
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Old 03-14-2013, 08:13 PM
  # 178 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by soberlicious View Post
Within the AA model, one's HP need not be supernatural, but it does need to be outside of oneself. People do it every which way there is...but I'm talking about the HP concept as it is defined by the program.
No. An HP can of course be an entirely inside experience if that is one's understanding. Such an arrangement is entirely accepted within the HP concept as defined by AA.

We can't get into quoting AA steps in this forum, but having said that, an HP is TOTALLY at a members ABSOLUTE personal understanding, as they so see fit to think and believe it is. The general fact that most members simply accept the Christian God as their HP, and that is the generalised popular understanding, does not mean their understanding is "more" AA then any member which doesn't have the Christian God as their HP.

You would be perhaps surprised to know what some people have as HP's and they are very much still AA members.

Didn't you say you knew about AA? Perhaps I'm thinking about someone else. I know you don't do AA program, but I thought you had some relative experiences with AA?
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Old 03-14-2013, 08:20 PM
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Originally Posted by fini View Post
Rob,

i have this question for you that keeps coming up in my mind for quite a while now, and i don't know where to put it (if there's a more appropriate thread, please can you direct me to it): re the AA HP, you're saying yours is internal, and it's all an inside job.
so my confusion is around the "inside/internal" part, since my understanding was/is that HP is supposed to be exactly NOT internal, but something bigger/not you/outside of yourself. (and i'm not talking about "supernatural" here.)
any clarification i'd greatly appreciate.

what am i missing or misunderstanding here?

Where and how do you understand that a person's HP MUST be external to themselves?

Certainly, a power greater then myself, yes. Must be external to me? No, that is not a requirement. There is nothing for me to clarify for you, because the restrictions you're supposing don't exist as a requirement for me to embrace when I create my OWN understanding of my HP.

Does that help?

Thanks for the question. Perhaps you could explain to me why you think such restrictions exist?
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Old 03-14-2013, 08:28 PM
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Originally Posted by fini View Post
Who simply selectively tunes out their AV, rather then seeks to silence it? And who is dissatisfied with having a non-silenced AV?

i do neither with my "av". when i hear it, i pay attention. i look at the space i'm in when "it" comes, and i assume it has everything to do with where i'm at in that moment, and nothing to do with actually wanting to drink.
it tells me something. not about wanting to drink, but about something i'm experiencing that's not feeling "right".

hm...i'm thinking much relapse prevention is linked to not dismissing or ignoring.
So, you don't really mean by definition, the Addictive Voice of AVRT, I'm thinking? I thought you don't really do AVRT as outlined. I thought you generalise and re-define for yourself what is or isn't AV.

If you don't call your "AV" a kind of AVRT AV, what else might you refer to it as? I'm curious is all, no big deal. I'm not calling you out, just interested since when you say above your "AV" has nothing to do with you actually wanting to drink.
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