BackToSquareOne

I think the whole process worked a little differently for me. The first thing was a deep knowing that I was done with alcohol for good. Anxiety, depression or whatever other curve balls life could throw my way, I was just going to have to deal with those things without the crutch of alcohol.

After the decision was made I simply disregarded all thoughts of drinking as irrational. By not attaching any importance to the thoughts they became fewer and further between. I do realize that to AVRT the thoughts are quite rational. I guess you could say my method was AVRT like without actually being AVRT. I would say it's a safe bet that since alcohol was first invented people have been using AVRT like methods which wouldn't qualify as AVRT proper.

RobbyRobot

I would totally be in agreement with all that. I find it real interesting how definitions sometimes hang people up, as if somehow definitions have more value in themselves then simply articulating one's honest and earnest experiences. Defining alcoholism, and alcoholic come to mind. Addiction too is another. Sobriety as well. Spiritual experiences. And let's not leave out God and Higher Power.

So I've 30+ years of experiences with "my definitions" and how interesting to be challenged that perhaps what I know works for me, and others, somehow can't stand up to examination and discussion, lol.

Its about having a sure knowledge of ones successes over ones faliures, and at the same time, to not be comparing myself to others with an eye to judge quality and quantity. Comparisons of ourselves with others can often enough simply lead us into a place of creating vanity over our experiences.

I suppose some people might assume I would be defensive about these definitions, and maybe even a bit afraid of being shown my experiences don't stand up for themselves, and leave me with my ass hanging out...



These kind of discussions always work best when folks simply talk their talk, ask a few questions, give a few answers, and get on with whatever. Not for nothing, but BTSO is a great example of a guy who just shares and dosen't judge for the sake of judgement. There are other examples too of course. When folks start telling other folks what is and isn't spiritual, HP, God, AA, AVRT, alcoholism, alcoholic, etc etc the conversation changes into a debate.

Where's the fun in that? Of course, I do realize this is a secular forum, I'm just now speaking to the mix within this thread.

Experiences rule. Rhetoric drools. Truth and fact prevail. Dogma and doctrine trail. Observation is always relative to the observer. My observation is we know enough to know we don't know enough about everything under the sun. There is so much more to discover. The journey ain't over yet.

Okay, okay. I got one...

fini

So, you don't really mean by definition, the Addictive Voice of AVRT, I'm thinking?
yeah, i thought of that later and went "ooops!".
shouldn't have posted that as clearly i don't talk of AV as defined by AVRT.
my apologies

fini

Certainly, a power greater then myself, yes. Must be external to me?

Perhaps you could explain to me why you think such restrictions exist?

because the only way i can see "greater than me" is something that can't all be internal. if it were all internal, it would be "me-sized" or smaller.

sigh. this is one of my most basic and most important-to-me questions. and most confusing, really.

RobbyRobot

I appreciate your obvious sincerity, fini. It's awesome to see you stand against your struggles even when some doubts are about. Well done.

For me, imagination is an excellent "go-to" resource when all else is coming up unsatisfied. Imagination is a powerful and often under-appreciated "thinking tool" to bring to the table along with reason, logic, intution, science, experience, etc.

Just some background now, from me about me. I've spent collectively, several years in plaster casts from toe to chest in childhood and into my late teenage years. Only my upper shoulders, arms, and head would be free. My left leg below my knee too. My longest stint was like almost 9 months bed-ridden. I was 12. I actually outgrew it and had to have a replacement. This particular surgical "mistake" eventually ended up with me having my amputation as a correction to that "mistake" more then 40 years later.

Anyways, after a time, you kinda go bonkers, you know, just laying there. I could not even attend school. I missed the entire 8th grade. I was home-schooled by a teacher provided by the schoolboard: Mrs. Todd. I remember her well. A wonderful person, an older experienced teacher, and just a great person. Jjust to say, I also missed almost the entire 5th grade too. Or was it the 4th, lol.

Kids and imagination go hand in hand, yeah? Kids don't stop to wonder if they have step acrossed a boundary and into imagination -- they just follow the money. As kids grow up they of course learn that certain imaginations will always remain so, even if they were once understood as factual. Life is just like that, and we're all the better for it.

Sometimes though, the windows into imagination can be too soon closed, or otherwise the curtains called into function, and doing what curtains do, the window is now not really a window, but more something else altogether in appearance and function on simple observance.

After a time, quite a few windows can get re-assigned in one's mind, and soon enough a kind of darkness decends and prevails. Sometimes the darkness is enough to seek out a singularity of a new light source which will once and for all provide sustained illumination.

And sometimes, no singularity is discoverd. And sometimes, a singularity is discovered. Almost always, robust imagination played an essential part of every known advance in human history across all disciplines and societies within civilizations.

I myself make abundant use of my skills with imagination. I'm not alone in this of course. Many famous, and even infamous individuals used imagination time and again with great success. And likewise, so too just the regular guy.

My psyche is absolutely paradoxically infinitely much greater in breadth and depth than "I" am. Yes, I am of course my psyche, yet I am not able to be aware of my entire psyche in any one moment. My psyche surpasses me. Totally. I'm much smaller then I appear to be even to myself, lol.

Actually, I have a theory, that some folk bind up their internal windows so has to limit their own awareness to just how huge a human psyche actually is: this done so that they can "honestly" say to themselves certain "points of interest" are nothing more then just fairy-tales and childish stories of yesterday's news.

Ignorance is often its own best company. And arrogance is often enough just an over-grown bully looking for fresh meat. Humans are as humans do, yeah?

So, for me, fini, everything you need to be you is already inside YOU. In my mind, same for everyone. In me, I found my AA HP, even though I was totally agnostic, there it was all the same.

Thanks, fini. Great discussion.

soberlicious

What I mean is one cannot be their own higher power...I mean of course they may if they wish, but the AA concept of HP does not allow self as higher power.

Yes, I have extensive experience with AA.

and ps sidenote, again... what the program has morphed into is not what the founders intended.

RobbyRobot

I completely agree one cannot be their own higher power, and stay true to AA sobriety.

As for what the original boys intended, I've no remarkable opinion, but I suspect the AA program is even more effective today as a meeting place for recovering and recovered minded folk then it ever was back more then 75+ yrs ago. Is that from morphing, or was it always a kind of meeting place?!

And as an aside too:

It's a moot point for me, unworthy of debate, is AA effective or not as a meeting place, and if so, does this in itself aid in recovery and socializing whilst enjoying quick friendships and easy fellowships. Quitting is universally effective, and AA is clear about quitting drinking on a permanent foundation of abstinence. After that, its really just so much personal choice and all that which makes AA what it is, and always was: simply a step by step program of conditions to fan the embers of any desire to quit into flames of sobriety to stay quit, and therafter increase the joy and happiness of one's life thru daily practice of the 12 steps in all daily affairs.

Hmmm. With this aside, I'm right on the edge of too much AA talk...

fini

so.....would i be understanding properly if i think you're saying that you're not your psyche? and that the breadth of your psyche and whatever power your psyche has is not your own power, though it is yours to access and use?

and if i misunderstand, then would the secular 12-step forum be a better place for this under step 2, maybe? though i'm not doing steps nor have done them, but that does seem to be what i'm asking about.

RobbyRobot

Several working definitions of psyche exist relative to the field of discussion re: psychology, philosophy, and ancient or modern times. For example:

My own preferred working model is aligned with Carl Jung: "I have been compelled, in my investigations into the structure of the unconscious, to make a conceptual distinction between soul and psyche. By psyche, I understand the totality of all psychic processes, conscious as well as unconscious. By soul, on the other hand, I understand a clearly demarcated functional complex that can best be described as a "personality". (Jung, 1971)

This for me simplifies everything, and allows for me to keep my Christianity out of my addiction recovered state of being. Nice and neat. My soul is elsewhere of my psyche.

So, since my personality is not entirely of my psyche, even while within my psyche, and so to answer you, I am within the totality of my mind, my psyche, but I'm also outside of my psyche too, as a distinct personality. Outside isn't really the best word... more a different plane...

a bit awkward, eh?!

hahaha. I love paradox and impossible concepts to no end!!

bemyself

Fini, don't know if this will help you re the HP thing:

Personally, I've found it helpful to use the Buddhist concept of Big Mind. I'm not literate enough in Buddhist-speak :-) to describe it, but my understanding (and experience, through meditation) is that it's something similar to what Robby notes as Jung's 'psyche'.

Essentially - always a dangerous word, as per Robby's points about 'definitions / schmef-initions' :-) - Big Mind is simply about touching something which is much greater than our Small Minds. SM for me is kind of the crap that my 'monkey mind' comes up with a million times a day, bombarding me / us with all manner of Terribly Important Things. They flow as a river, and a very turbulent river, at that.

when we can practise observing these Terribly Important Things we of course see that they are, more often than not, just ridiculously puny things. We've simply allowed them (in small mind thinking - and the feelings that accompany it) to appear as barriers, obstacles, afflictions (indeed, Buddhism calls them 'kleshas'= afflictive emotions, generated of course by the mind, and manifesting in our bodies very often).

Another term for what appears in our usual small mind condition, which I find helpful (as a gardener) is 'mind weeds'. Any good gardener knows to keep pulling out the weeds before they choke the better, lovely plants. And who knows 'what / who' is enabling the plants - and the weeds - in a garden to grow, providing the sunlight, rain, soil organisms, etc etc? On THAT, I'm agnostic.

But Big Mind (call it Jung's universal / collective unconscious if you like, or anything else - the forces of the universe itself, etc), is always there available for us - if only we open those damn curtains Robby mentioned. Zen, I think, says: 'behind the clouds, there is always blue sky'. Some call that Blue Sky Mind.

Whatever works for me / you / us, eh?

bemyself

PS it just occurred to me, too, that AV is DEFINITELY (for once, some conviction is called for :-)) part of Small Mind. You know, the thought of having a drink - or forty - seems to be SUCH a Terribly Important Thing.

As AVRT shows: all an illusion, or should that be de-lusion? Doesn't really matter which, in that moment when It appears. It's puny, small.

More to the point: It prevents us from having access to Big Mind, clarity (i.e. seeing things just as they are. ) No doubt the primary reason why, for thousands of years, Buddhists take one of a number of vows, including not putting intoxicating substances into the body. Not dissimilar to the Big Plan, non?

BackToSquareOne

That's a fascinating topic which is still highly debated. Just what is consciousness? If you sit quietly and watch how thoughts rise in consciousness you find that there's often no rhyme or reason to the flow of thoughts. I've heard a neurologist make the remark that thoughts arise in consciousness before you actually think them. If you could really control your thoughts you'd be able to tell yourself to stop thinking, not be bored, anxious, depressed or whatever. Conversely you would be able to tell your mind to be happy, enlightened and in a constant state of bliss.

If you really think about it your subconscious mind is controlling all kinds of complicated bodily functions 24/7 that you never actually think about. Damage a part of your brain and you could be in a world of trouble. Is human consciousness just a bunch of chemical/electrical signals travelling across neurons, synapses and whatever?

What about the power of belief, how big of a role does that play in the workings of the human mind? I watched a Nat.Geo. special on witchdoctors, shamans, healers and the like and the conclusion was that their cures often do work but they only work on true believers. So then what of the power of belief, is there much more to that than meets the eye?

soberlicious

Indeed it is fascinating...
Bemyself, the buddhist concepts of Big Mind/Monkey Mind are very AVRTish in nature. I studied up on Buddhism long before encountering writings on AVRT and immediately noticed the parallels. I use to joke with a former member that I could envision he and JT drinking tea in monk robes lol

Buddhism does not embrace the idea of "self" and "soul", at least not in the way most western religions/philosophies do.

I love your gardening analogy. Weeding is important. Knowing that I can never stop the weeds from growing altogether, I can however manage the impact they have on my garden.

bemyself

BTSO, yes, 'consciousness' and 'belief': jeez, don't get me started


I'm drawn to what I can find of recent books on both topics, so yeh, I've also noted the experimental finding about 'thoughts arising in consciousness before [we] think them'. From memory, it's summat to do with....? Oh, blast, too early in the morning to coherently manage this one :-)

Interestingly - and probably unsurprisingly - Buddhism observed that very process too, a very long time ago.

Yeh, it would be nice, wouldn't it eh? if we could control our thoughts and be in a state of enlightened bliss! Heheh....about the best I can manage is mere moments of mindfulness throughout each day. I have humble aspirations: to simply return from any inner turmoil to a little equanimity. For me, recently, that feat alone is HUGE!

Soberlicious: JT in monks' robes? I sorta take your point (and had a good chuckle); equally though, now you've got me imagining some aged master wryly observing JT's passionate adherence to 'views' :-)

'self', 'soul' - 'no-self', 'no-soul'....sheesh, yeah, bowerbirds like me pluck at 'em all! I guess that 'my' clearer calmer moments are coming from, in the end of the analysis, that open space of Big Mind, where even such concepts - as much as we cling to them, including 'no self', 'no soul' - waft away into air. Pema Chodron I think often calls it just resting in spaciousness. When I'm beset by some irritation or another, especially a thought of drinking in our current context of discussion, that spaciousness of options, possibility, not-being-driven / compelled to or from anything, can be a tiny life saver. It might and usually does only last for a few minutes, if that, but it can sometimes change the tenor of my day.

After what feels like about a lifetime of almost continual suffering in various ways, I accept those moments of relief with gratitude and wonder.

And then have to go and do the weeding again :-)

fini

this whole SR thing is too busy and fast for me! i'm used to fewer people expressing fewer "thoughts" more slowly...no matter, i'll just lag as i'm attempting to articulate what i'm thinking.
if this gets too off-topic, please direct me somewhere else. (i'm also used to threads wandering-meandering all over the place from the start-topic)
anyway: interesting you bring up soul, Rob, as i was thinking of that, also. don't see it like Jung does, though, related to 'personality'. see it more as a mix of imminence and transcendent, but that's really neither here nor there.
okay, i think i get how you see psyche and how that works for you as "inside job". and i'm not sure where exactly i got the idea that HP isn't just supposed to be greater than me, but also external as in transcendent, which stumps so many, as it leads to "empowerment/disempowerment" confusions.
personally, i have no trouble accepting many "entities" (entirely the wrong word) as greater than me that are not theistic or even spiritual; time comes to mind quite easily.
but it doesn't address the "inside job".
hm.
must think more. sit with it. is there somewhere else in SR where people are talking about internal HP? huh? still have difficulty....LOVE difficulty, actually

bemyself, 'mind weeds'...yeah, that's a good one. am not very familiar with Buddhism, but have read enough to have come across the no-self and monkey mind, and hungry ghosts and...
hm. but BIG MIND ...i don't suppose it "resides" anywhere, so it would be neither internal nor external as really these are artificial when there is no self...is that what you're saying?

who's/what's JT?

thanks, all, for helping me with my questions.

RobbyRobot

Awesome, fini. No worries about perhaps going off topic about any and all of this, and no worries about fast posting either. The thread can handle several conversations all at the same time, no problemo.

I'm glad I'm making some sense with you about my "inside job" experiences, thank you. Interesting to hear your take on all this too. This is a very broad topic, layers deep, and very personal for all of us.

soberlicious

Jack Trimpey....about as far from OMMMMM as I would imagine,
but not really.
Hmmmmmmm

fini

duh!

you'd think i might have figured that one out, seeing as i actually read one of his books years ago and this forum mentions him so often...DUH!!!!!

thanks, soberlicious

Cleopatra1

great stuff here,,really enjoyed reading it all,,,now to find a dictionary x lol
its so nice to see this bit busy,,when i joined it was rather quiet,,so,,im liking this very muchly..even if i cannot contribute big words like the rest of ya,,,i understand the topic,and its fantabulous,,(my made up word lol),,
you clever bunch xx keep it up ,
lv cleo xxxx

RobbyRobot

(((Cleopatra)))!!!