Robby's Thread
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: "I'm not lost for I know where I am. But however, where I am may be lost ..."
Posts: 5,273
You just appear to have come a little undone. I don't want to add to that.
When someone doesn't share my opinion, or my experiences, no I do not take that personally. I am sorry that you do.
When someone doesn't share my opinion, or my experiences, no I do not take that personally. I am sorry that you do.
So there.
I hope Robby doesn't close this thread. I can understand if he would / does though.
Mainly because yeh, it's 'not a friggin teaching thread'. Experience/s are so varied that it's almost impossible to (um) 'reconcile'.
And, feeling frustration, even peed off, is NOTHING TO DO with versions of my sobriety / your sobriety / alcoholism or any other 'ism'. It's quite normal. We seem to have forgotten this simple age-old fact, in the plethora of advice and self-improvement stuff which abounds in our society.
As you know and others know SoberL, anger etc is really only detrimental if if truly does overt harm to others. But passive disclaimers can be harmful too. They mess with even the clearest minds.
Anyway, regardless: if Robby decides it's time for this thread to be concluded, then, why not? 'Agree to disagree'. Newcomers are indeed not helpless either. They / we are just often told we are. They / we can move elsewhere. No drama. The internet is not a rehab :-) It's a conversation.
Mainly because yeh, it's 'not a friggin teaching thread'. Experience/s are so varied that it's almost impossible to (um) 'reconcile'.
And, feeling frustration, even peed off, is NOTHING TO DO with versions of my sobriety / your sobriety / alcoholism or any other 'ism'. It's quite normal. We seem to have forgotten this simple age-old fact, in the plethora of advice and self-improvement stuff which abounds in our society.
As you know and others know SoberL, anger etc is really only detrimental if if truly does overt harm to others. But passive disclaimers can be harmful too. They mess with even the clearest minds.
Anyway, regardless: if Robby decides it's time for this thread to be concluded, then, why not? 'Agree to disagree'. Newcomers are indeed not helpless either. They / we are just often told we are. They / we can move elsewhere. No drama. The internet is not a rehab :-) It's a conversation.
Like I've said again and again, I am defining what AA sobriety is to me. I don't friggin care if you've never heard about it before or not. Your hearing about it NOW. If you don't agree, say so, and be done with me. Write me off as a whatever, and move on. Don't keep asking me over and over again about this elusive experience for YOU. For me, its all very real!
You attended AA for years, and still ended up drinking. And you want me to do what with that? I believe you returned to drinking, is what I'm doing with it, not a lot of success there for me, okay?
I'm saying AA is about both quitting and sobriety. BOTH. AA is not just about quitting. Or just about sobriety. It is about BOTH together. Doing AA successfully is doing BOTH TOGETHER.
AVRT is only about QUITTING.
There is no way you are being confused by what I'm saying. You don't agree, okay. Confused? NO WAY.
You attended AA for years, and still ended up drinking. And you want me to do what with that? I believe you returned to drinking, is what I'm doing with it, not a lot of success there for me, okay?
I'm saying AA is about both quitting and sobriety. BOTH. AA is not just about quitting. Or just about sobriety. It is about BOTH together. Doing AA successfully is doing BOTH TOGETHER.
AVRT is only about QUITTING.
There is no way you are being confused by what I'm saying. You don't agree, okay. Confused? NO WAY.
And of course, that is your mantra with me: you're confused.
Well, then so be it. You're confused.
Member
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Land of the free, Home of the Brave
Posts: 158
I've been reading through this thread for a couple of days..A lot of good things said here and some a little snarky. I must say. I don't want Robby's thread to turn into "a lousy drag" as Robby said.
I think we are all just trying to figure this thing out the best we can. I like to hear different thoughts, ideas, feelings etc. For me the bottom line is what is going to keep me from not drinking is not drinking! It is like when I look in the mirror and think do these pants make my butt look big? No my big butt makes my butt look big! Not to over simplify because it is a HUGE struggle any input , methods , tools whatever you want to call it..I'm in.
Taking what works and running with it.
Thanks everyone
I think we are all just trying to figure this thing out the best we can. I like to hear different thoughts, ideas, feelings etc. For me the bottom line is what is going to keep me from not drinking is not drinking! It is like when I look in the mirror and think do these pants make my butt look big? No my big butt makes my butt look big! Not to over simplify because it is a HUGE struggle any input , methods , tools whatever you want to call it..I'm in.
Taking what works and running with it.
Thanks everyone
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: "I'm not lost for I know where I am. But however, where I am may be lost ..."
Posts: 5,273
Originally Posted by bemyself
Newcomers are indeed not helpless either. They / we are just often told we are.
I would address your other comment to me about anger and passive disclaimers, but I'm not clear on what you mean. Stuff like this does not get me unglued...that's just me. I recognize that everyone is different.
Then why do you call it alcoholism??? Perhaps I'm a compulsive gambler, but I just don't know it because I don't gamble, and gambling doesn't have terrifically much to do with that particular ism either? When you replace alcohol with any other addictive substance or activity, it sounds ridiculous. Why does alcohol get awarded this superstitious, magical quality?
SoberKnitter,
"alcoholism" might not be what we'd call it today if we were to name it now.
i'm thinking now of what we call "eating disorders", and how we don't call that "foodism", because we know that it isn't about the food. it plays out around food.
so, in a similar manner, my alcoholism played/plays out around alcohol, but isn't exactly ABOUT alcohol.
does that show better what i mean?
nothing to do with awarding alcohol any qualities, magical or otherwise.
please do remember what i keep saying also: that i didn't start out seeing it that way at all; the way i see and understand it now took a long time and much grappling with things i didn't really want to look at, namely what i call "the choice-thing". i didn't want to be an alcoholic, SK, i would have rather had an alcohol addiction. much more straightforward.
and once again, i've responded without reading past your post, and i'd imagine someone else will have pointed out that aa does not require belief in god.
and there is a huge difference between a belief in god (you mean this as in "faith"?) and a tool: a tool is something we use that is designed to help us attain a certain result/goal.
faith is its own end. not there for a purpose of achieving something else.
does that clarify for you where i'm at/how i see things? p[lease keep asking if it doesn't and you want to; i enjoy it.
SoberKnitter,
"alcoholism" might not be what we'd call it today if we were to name it now.
i'm thinking now of what we call "eating disorders", and how we don't call that "foodism", because we know that it isn't about the food. it plays out around food.
so, in a similar manner, my alcoholism played/plays out around alcohol, but isn't exactly ABOUT alcohol.
does that show better what i mean?
nothing to do with awarding alcohol any qualities, magical or otherwise.
please do remember what i keep saying also: that i didn't start out seeing it that way at all; the way i see and understand it now took a long time and much grappling with things i didn't really want to look at, namely what i call "the choice-thing". i didn't want to be an alcoholic, SK, i would have rather had an alcohol addiction. much more straightforward.
and once again, i've responded without reading past your post, and i'd imagine someone else will have pointed out that aa does not require belief in god.
and there is a huge difference between a belief in god (you mean this as in "faith"?) and a tool: a tool is something we use that is designed to help us attain a certain result/goal.
faith is its own end. not there for a purpose of achieving something else.
does that clarify for you where i'm at/how i see things? p[lease keep asking if it doesn't and you want to; i enjoy it.
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: "I'm not lost for I know where I am. But however, where I am may be lost ..."
Posts: 5,273
Originally Posted by RobbyRobot
You attended AA for years, and still ended up drinking. And you want me to do what with that? I believe you returned to drinking, is what I'm doing with it, not a lot of success there for me, okay?
Yeah, faith needs works with it to become something of a purpose, and from there create an achievement. Faith on its own has no purpose. It is not a tool. Faith must bring something into play that without faith would not of otherwise come into play, in my opinion.
Experiences with faith differ, of course.
Experiences with faith differ, of course.
I'm just accepting the facts, that a return to drinking is not a success, after years of being in AA. This is not about me needing to experience that exact same failure to see failure for what it is: no way drinking again can be considered a success after years of AA.
People can of course successfully get their desire fulfilled by returning to drinking when what they want is to return to drinking.
Will you ever stop breaking my balls, Soberlicious?
People can of course successfully get their desire fulfilled by returning to drinking when what they want is to return to drinking.
Will you ever stop breaking my balls, Soberlicious?
whoa, have read the rest.
and have such conflicting emotions right now, and thoughts...
not a teaching thread, no, of course not.
but for myself, knowing how often i have been confused in this journey and been grateful over the years when someone has borne with me through those confusions and has tried many different ways of saying what they're saying until i could finally get it. or some of it.
and then, too, knowing that i personally was entirely incapable of understanding some things some people said to me until i could put aside my convictions and make space; until i spent time reading, re-reading, thinking, and yeah, asking a lot of questions. covering the same ground for ages.
so yeah, i get it when people say they're confused and find it confusing. and a week, a month, six months later are still confused about the same thing someone else has been saying all that time.
and i get the frustration and ****-off and hurt when personal experience is being questioned in this kind of , uh..."scientific prove-it-to-me-buddy-i'm-catching-you-in-a-contradiction" way.
what to do?
for myself, if i'm confused and really can't figure, i'll ask. not always, but i try to. i'll ask because i want to understand. and sometimes the way i (or others) ask is mistaken as combativeness. there's that.
but crumbs, there's nothing much better than someone really interested in understanding. and working on that regardless of confusion.
oh gee, i do go on so sometimes. sigh.
in any case, Robby, not a teaching thread, but lots to learn
i'm very glad you're sharing the to-me-intriguing way your way works for you. seeing what's possible in a program i saw as mostly rigid. you've widened the parameters for me.
and i hope there's still room for people's questions.
and have such conflicting emotions right now, and thoughts...
not a teaching thread, no, of course not.
but for myself, knowing how often i have been confused in this journey and been grateful over the years when someone has borne with me through those confusions and has tried many different ways of saying what they're saying until i could finally get it. or some of it.
and then, too, knowing that i personally was entirely incapable of understanding some things some people said to me until i could put aside my convictions and make space; until i spent time reading, re-reading, thinking, and yeah, asking a lot of questions. covering the same ground for ages.
so yeah, i get it when people say they're confused and find it confusing. and a week, a month, six months later are still confused about the same thing someone else has been saying all that time.
and i get the frustration and ****-off and hurt when personal experience is being questioned in this kind of , uh..."scientific prove-it-to-me-buddy-i'm-catching-you-in-a-contradiction" way.
what to do?
for myself, if i'm confused and really can't figure, i'll ask. not always, but i try to. i'll ask because i want to understand. and sometimes the way i (or others) ask is mistaken as combativeness. there's that.
but crumbs, there's nothing much better than someone really interested in understanding. and working on that regardless of confusion.
oh gee, i do go on so sometimes. sigh.
in any case, Robby, not a teaching thread, but lots to learn
i'm very glad you're sharing the to-me-intriguing way your way works for you. seeing what's possible in a program i saw as mostly rigid. you've widened the parameters for me.
and i hope there's still room for people's questions.
Then why do you call it alcoholism??? Perhaps I'm a compulsive gambler, but I just don't know it because I don't gamble, and gambling doesn't have terrifically much to do with that particular ism either? When you replace alcohol with any other addictive substance or activity, it sounds ridiculous. Why does alcohol get awarded this superstitious, magical quality?
SoberKnitter,
"alcoholism" might not be what we'd call it today if we were to name it now.
i'm thinking now of what we call "eating disorders", and how we don't call that "foodism", because we know that it isn't about the food. it plays out around food.
so, in a similar manner, my alcoholism played/plays out around alcohol, but isn't exactly ABOUT alcohol.
does that show better what i mean?
nothing to do with awarding alcohol any qualities, magical or otherwise.
SoberKnitter,
"alcoholism" might not be what we'd call it today if we were to name it now.
i'm thinking now of what we call "eating disorders", and how we don't call that "foodism", because we know that it isn't about the food. it plays out around food.
so, in a similar manner, my alcoholism played/plays out around alcohol, but isn't exactly ABOUT alcohol.
does that show better what i mean?
nothing to do with awarding alcohol any qualities, magical or otherwise.
I, like every other non-theist who has been to AA, have been told that one's higher power can be a doorknob, but read through the steps substituting any terrestrial thing for the word "God," and it's obvious why the doorknob thing sounds like unadulterated and insulting BS to most people.
It seems that many - including yourself and Robby - are practicing their own, modified versions of AA. This isn't a bad thing, but it does make it troublesome to talk about. I suppose I can call myself a Catholic and believe it to be so, but it will confuse the bejeesus out of people when I say that I don't believe in any of the church's doctrines, or that I find my Catholicism to be perfectly compatible with my job at an abortion clinic or a gay bar.
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: "I'm not lost for I know where I am. But however, where I am may be lost ..."
Posts: 5,273
Originally Posted by RobbyRobot
This is not about me needing to experience that exact same failure to see failure for what it is:
no way drinking again can be considered a success after years of AA.
There is a reason for using words like "not a lot of success" and "failure". The intent wasn't lost on me, Robby, nor was it lost on the poster, or the many lurkers here. It's that kind of subtle undermining that might make one wonder about wanting "AA sobriety".
Will you ever stop breaking my balls, Soberlicious?
You obviously have a strong opinion on something that you personally have never experienced. Hmmm...that is curious indeed.
The literature does not speak in terms of success/failure. It's progress, not perfection. The quote above is your opinion, stated as fact.
There is a reason for using words like "not a lot of success" and "failure". The intent wasn't lost on me, Robby, nor was it lost on the poster, or the many lurkers here. It's that kind of subtle undermining that might make one wonder about wanting "AA sobriety".
The literature does not speak in terms of success/failure. It's progress, not perfection. The quote above is your opinion, stated as fact.
There is a reason for using words like "not a lot of success" and "failure". The intent wasn't lost on me, Robby, nor was it lost on the poster, or the many lurkers here. It's that kind of subtle undermining that might make one wonder about wanting "AA sobriety".
As for you saying a certain intent on my part wasn't lost on you, on the poster, or on lurkers, you really need to just say it out plainly. Saying my use of failure is undermining is pure projection on your part about my intent.
And of course I have experienced failure. A return to drinking does not make people into failures of course, but drinking after years of not drinking is failure to not return to drinking, and that is important: drinking is absolutely NOT in any way a part of recovery, for any reason, for me.
Progress does not mean drinking is included as a positive progress. Progress means challenges in sobriety do not have to be met with perfection, imo.
I'm not selling or otherwise offering my ideas on AA sobriety to be taken up by others. I'm only sharing my experiences with being who I am as a recovered alcoholic drug addict, and how I have become recovered.
It's really not important to me if you want what I have or don't want it, soberlicious. You should want what you have for yourself. I can admire or not what others have, but I want my own, not theirs. The more people have for themselves what they themselves want, the more they will enjoy their own happiness and success while not drinking.
Like I said, I'm not any AA/AVRT poster child.
It seems that many - including yourself and Robby - are practicing their own, modified versions of AA. This isn't a bad thing, but it does make it troublesome to talk about. I suppose I can call myself a Catholic and believe it to be so, but it will confuse the bejeesus out of people when I say that I don't believe in any of the church's doctrines, or that I find my Catholicism to be perfectly compatible with my job at an abortion clinic or a gay bar.
No one person or interpretation speaks for AA. We each can safely and without penalty have our own way of experiencing the AA program.
I'm very sure of my way, very little doubt remains. I have extremely high confidence in my experiences, and I have the results to back me up, so I'm very sure of my practice of the AA program.
Same with AVRT, for that matter.
I am not speaking for AA/AVRT. I'm speaking for myself.
The other thing I want to remind us of in this thread, is we cannot talk about the steps themselves, even in a positive way. We can talk about our experiences, but not directly about Step whatever. That's the rules for this forum, and I agree with those rules.
The 12 step forum can be used for positive talks about the steps.
The 12 step forum can be used for positive talks about the steps.
but crumbs, there's nothing much better than someone really interested in understanding. and working on that regardless of confusion.
oh gee, i do go on so sometimes. sigh.
in any case, Robby, not a teaching thread, but lots to learn
i'm very glad you're sharing the to-me-intriguing way your way works for you. seeing what's possible in a program i saw as mostly rigid. you've widened the parameters for me.
and i hope there's still room for people's questions.
oh gee, i do go on so sometimes. sigh.
in any case, Robby, not a teaching thread, but lots to learn
i'm very glad you're sharing the to-me-intriguing way your way works for you. seeing what's possible in a program i saw as mostly rigid. you've widened the parameters for me.
and i hope there's still room for people's questions.
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