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Old 03-23-2013, 07:10 AM
  # 221 (permalink)  
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okay so...yeah, i can "get" your view/experience of it as the sober mind taken over, but then my question is this: if your alcoholic mind is asleep and un-empowered then your AV is coming from...uh...?

i hope you get what i'm asking, cause i'm not sure myself just what that is. grrr.
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Old 03-23-2013, 07:11 AM
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Originally Posted by ananda View Post
I believe there is more commonality between my "different selves (alchoholic vs not drinking) and my connection to my human existance means I have more in common with my fellow humans. Yes! I am alchoholic! But much of my "suffering" is about being human....many of my fellow travelors who are not "alchoholic" suffer the same set backs and problems I do....I have the added part of alchoholism, but we are more the same then we are different.

Nands.
Bravo! Well said!
Me too, Nands. I also believe we're all more the same then we are different.

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Old 03-23-2013, 07:15 AM
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I know that some people quit drinking/using and claim that everything is peaches and cream, rainbows and sunshine.

BTSO,
yes, i've heard of those people.
i'm not one of them, though i did think originally that it would be that way.
the hard "work" started after i quit.
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Old 03-23-2013, 08:13 AM
  # 224 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by fini View Post
okay so...yeah, i can "get" your view/experience of it as the sober mind taken over, but then my question is this: if your alcoholic mind is asleep and un-empowered then your AV is coming from...uh...?

i hope you get what i'm asking, cause i'm not sure myself just what that is. grrr.
You know, sometimes "sureness" can be troublesome to innovation, so don't sweat being unsure, as there is also value in uncertainty, yeah?

AVRT is a thinking technique very useful in becoming indifferent to addictive desires. Addictive Voice is a phenomenon of having my own thoughts copied and pasted back to me in such a fashion as to leverage my Beasts desire for alcohol to invite me to pick up that drink.

AV is a normal thing, not unhealthy in itself, since it represents a kind of primal survival drive. The Beast is an abnormal "extra", if you will, desire for alcohol which otherwise is hiding inside/behind that otherwise healthy normal desire drive. Alcohol the drug obviously cannot simply be drank as a means to satisfy survival drives, it simply won't bring success for survival, as we all know from personal experience. With AVRT, alcohol is the ideal "solution" to satisfy my Beast/AV, and my AV is the only cause of the addiction.

Okay.

My alcoholic mind is itself a sickness that feeds off my otherwise healthy sober mind, exhausting it, using it, defeating it, destroying it. My alcoholic mind exists within my alcoholic illness, and my illness feeds off of my healthy mind, body, spirit. This feeding is chronic and can (will) eventually be fatal to me if not checked.

Since alcoholism is defined, for me, as an illness of mind, body, and spirit, no "cure" exists which answers for my holistic sum of mind, body, and spirit.

So we can easily see AVRT has no relationship with alcoholism whatsoever. AVRT is nothing more then an excellent thinking technique to simplify separation of addictive desire so as to more easily achieve permanent abstinence.

My being recovered from my alcoholism illness involves my entire psyche, body, and spirit. My alcoholism illness has nothing to do with primal survival drives.

So, my AV then is any (past, present, future) thought, image, feeling which suggests any future drinking. AVRT is the total cure to my AV. Eventually, I have become so indifferent to my AV that I can detect my AV without stress or struggle. My AV looks to me as obviously as rainfall does on a sunny day.

Now, because I wholly subscribe to the unique AA definition of alcoholism, my AV is constantly chattering on about my personal understandings, lol. No matter. I deal with it, no problemo. I enjoy the tensions and energies created as a resultant of my beliefs.

Did this help in understanding what your asking? I'm enjoying our discussions. Thank you.

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Old 03-23-2013, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by BackToSquareOne
I know that some people quit drinking/using and claim that everything is peaches and cream, rainbows and sunshine.
I just posted in another thread about getting crap from my friends all the time about "the f*cking bluebird on my shoulder" lol

I attempted suicide (with my children in the house), was baker-acted (psych ward) then sent to treatment. Before it all went down, I was so thin people thought I had cancer and I was unable to stay at work for more than 30 minutes before being sent home. I was officially batsh*t crazy, with the papers that said so. When I came home from treatment, I literally felt like a new woman. I was a new woman. Without problems? Nope, not even close. But I didn't want to die anymore and I had a never ever before experienced sense of freedom from addiction.

Yep...I was and am one of those rainbow sh*tters.

I cry, I get frustrated, my kids drive me nuts, the job occasionally sucks, bills to pay, $ is short....but damn man, that's life. None of those things overwhelm me to the point of wanting to die...the reason? because I don't drink or get high.
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Old 03-23-2013, 10:29 AM
  # 226 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by RobbyRobot View Post
My being recovered from my alcoholism illness involves my entire psyche, body, and spirit. My alcoholism illness has nothing to do with primal survival drives.
Not entirely true, and so I would like to rephrase:

My alcoholism illness is not created solely from abnormal or hi-jacked primal survival drives, but is also relative to my holistic being.

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Old 03-23-2013, 10:56 AM
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Rob, how would you describe your "alcoholic illness"?

I don't have an "alcoholic illness", yet our experiences are much the same.

Interesting.
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Old 03-23-2013, 12:42 PM
  # 228 (permalink)  
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Yeah, soberlicious, it almost looks like we have arrived at similar realizations even though by way of different "decisions" made along our respective journeys relative to our take on our own experiences.

My illness understanding fills all the dark corners and gives answer to my somewhat unique experiences both as a using and abusing alcoholic drug addict, but as well as a recovered alcoholic drug addict too.

It seems to just fit me, and my life forwards, backwards, and in the present. And the more I learn about addictions and recovery, the more I am validated, at least to me I am, lol.

That striking and amazing "Pleasure Unwoven" found in RDBplus3's awesome thread and linked by BTSO:

Originally Posted by BackToSquareOne View Post
is a great example of my understanding of my alcoholic illness in ways that really brings it all home for me.

Have you see it?

Amazing stuff.

As for details about my description, please give me specifics to respond too. Thanks!

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Old 03-23-2013, 02:27 PM
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Not yet, but it's bookmarked. I plan on watching tonight after soccer games, chauffeuring, dinner/cleanup, laundry...
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Old 03-24-2013, 08:35 AM
  # 230 (permalink)  
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not sure if it helps me understand...let me see if i hear you right: i think the trick then is to have the separation be total between AV and alcoholic mind. is that what you're saying? they're not "from the same place" at all?
and what you guys call "the beast" is yet in another place/realm, separate again from both AV and alcoholic mind?
so i'm totally missing the point of AVRT when i assume the "AV" which i think of in terms i attempted to describe earlier as the knee-jerk-urge is coming from my alcoholic mind. and the reason i'm totally missing that point is because the way you use "alcoholic mind" is only existent, so to speak, if you have the AA-defined alcoholism.
phew, did i get that now?

and if i did get it, then...more unsureness. oh yes, agreed about the value of uncertainty. and the enjoyment of the conversation. thanks.
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Old 03-24-2013, 08:54 AM
  # 231 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by fini View Post
and what you guys call "the beast" is yet in another place/realm, separate again from both AV and alcoholic mind?

so i'm totally missing the point of AVRT when i assume the "AV" which i think of in terms i attempted to describe earlier as the knee-jerk-urge is coming from my alcoholic mind. and the reason i'm totally missing that point is because the way you use "alcoholic mind" is only existent, so to speak, if you have the AA-defined alcoholism.

phew, did i get that now?

and if i did get it, then...more unsureness. oh yes, agreed about the value of uncertainty. and the enjoyment of the conversation. thanks.
Yeah, you got it going on now, a good working understanding of the differences, as I understand them anyways.

Aren't paradoxical discussions wonderful and invigorating?!!
Hell yeah!!
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Old 03-24-2013, 07:50 PM
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alright!

so, now, that leads to another question, about the alcoholic mind of yours: does it not natter? does it not have a "voice"?

sigh. did i miss that part? is that related to the ...huh???

why am i having such a tough time understanding this?
before AVRT came on the scene, to what did people ascribe "the voice" that might murmur or scream:"DRINK!"?
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Old 03-26-2013, 08:50 AM
  # 233 (permalink)  
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What each of us come to believe in is of course a matter of choices made to realize our beliefs. Our experiences inform us and guide us in the making of our choices, for better or worse, we can only at best do our very best, and all other efforts beyond our best is nothing more then our vanity playing us for the fool.

Addiction is a controversial subject, creating different schools of thought to understand and define what addiction is and is not. Likewise for recovery and being recovered. Many worthy discussions around the world are yet to happen, and the future is bright with those discussions and discoveries. The final page has not been written on addiction/recovery discussions.

I like this thread, it opens ideas into another honest arena for free discussion, within the standard rules of SR. There are many threads all doing the same on SR of course. SR is a cornucopia of real life experiences. We're all fortunate to have free access to such wonderful knowledge and wisdom from so many good-hearted persons.

I suppose this thread has been successful enough in it's purposes, and I'm grateful. I also suppose this thread is awkward and lumbering in its efforts to bring answers to questions both asked and not asked, and for some, best not wanted to be asked from the start.

For me, quality of life is everything. There is no substitute for quality. None. When life has lost its saltiness, then for me anyways, life becomes a drag and worse. I enjoy the differences of my successes and failures. One without the other would cause my life to be meaningless and worse.

I'm always amazed how quickly some people decide they have the answers simply because they have someone else, or two or three, be in agreement with themselves. I'm not being critical here, just commenting how often some people will speak not from their own experiences, but from their own collective projections of those missing experiences. I'm speaking now about quality of life experiences.

I'm not interested in a debate or argument of what defines quality of life. I am interested in a discussion of how quality of life experiences themselves provide more answers to more questions then any other resource imaginable.

Getting clean and staying clean is a beginning, and not an end itself, imo. Life in abundance requires more then what is commonly asked for quality to be spontaneously created. If all we do is simply only what we ask of ourselves, for me anyways, that is same as epic fail in my books.

I know many don't agree, no problemo.


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Old 03-26-2013, 09:13 AM
  # 234 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by fini View Post
alright!

so, now, that leads to another question, about the alcoholic mind of yours: does it not natter? does it not have a "voice"?

sigh. did i miss that part? is that related to the ...huh???

why am i having such a tough time understanding this?
before AVRT came on the scene, to what did people ascribe "the voice" that might murmur or scream:"DRINK!"?
Yes, my alcoholic mind did have a voice, and that voice went almost perfectly silent when I sobered up and had my alcoholism illness in full remission and arrested.

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Old 03-26-2013, 08:44 PM
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just commenting how often some people will speak not from their own experiences, but from their own collective projections of those missing experiences. I'm speaking now about quality of life experiences.
I don't understand what this means. Can you rephrase for purposes of clarification?
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Old 03-27-2013, 06:40 AM
  # 236 (permalink)  
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Yeah, I can rephrase. There are many examples in life.

For example:

The guy who keeps working at a job he hates because quitting it would be even worse. But when he talks he complains how if others would do this or that he would be okay with his job. Result: yeah, but they won't do it his way, so all the talk is really a window into the lousy quality of his work life and it's okay, because he can share with others who feel the same, and collectively they feel justified. Individually they feel miserable.


Another example:

The guy who doesn't know how to value dating because he can't forgive his ex for kicking him out of her life, and so can't see his side of the equation in the relationship. From his way of thinking, every girl he's known simply doesn't take the time to know him, and they always give up on him before he can make things right. They just don't give him a fair break, the way he see's it.

Result: yeah, but since sustained intimacy requires sincerity and revelation to work as a glue in a relationship, and since our guy thinks he can't give what he doesn't have for himself, and they'll never give him a good enough chance from the start, so he'll just keep his resentments and play his cards close to his chest so that he doesn't get fooled again. He talks and shares with others how he just doesn't get how women can be so hard to understand. He and his friends earnestly agree, and they chat amongst themselves while riding the train to nowhere. No real stops on that train. Just have to jump while its still moving. Our guy has never jumped off but he talks how he is open to relationships with women because he knows that someone special is out there. So this guy is just another guy who doesn't understand women is his collective un-experienced experience.

And finally:

The guy who says he knows what he has to do, but doesn't do it, because he just can't get past changing up his life to get the thing done. He enjoys his life, he just wants to stop drinking. He loves his job, his wife and family, his friends, and himself. He just drinks too much, and can't believe he can't stop for himself, and can't believe quitting has to be such a big deal anyways.

Result: yeah, and there will always be those who tell him, "yeah sure, my man, like us you just drank for pleasure, everything else is good, right? Yeah, so just know you can do this. Just quit. No matter where your life is or isn't, it doesn't have anything to do with your life. Just quit. And keep trying too, if you think you can't quit, because trying is just as good as doing it. Forget about failures. No matter what you do, trying will always make it right as long as you don't give up. No such thing as failure. You're a winner even if you think you're not! Just believe!

And so our guy joins in and they back-slap and cajole themselves along, always trying, never giving up. And when someone does drink again, no big deal, its all still good. And when someone continues to drink following that again drink, its like okay still not a big deal, you can turn this around just don't give up. And when the person does give up, they are then told, you're not being honest with yourself, your believing lies about yourself, you can do this, just quit again. And keep trying. Just don't quit trying.

=======

Okay. So I expect not a lot of agreement with my examples. My point is none of those examples requires an examination of the quality of life before drinking, during drinking, and after drinking. And yet if quality of life is a non-issue, then what is left that is important enough to sustain an enjoyable nourishing happy life?

I'm saying more answers exist in the seeking of a quality of life then in seeking a certain method or way to quit alcohol forever. The life lived is more important then the life lost trying to get into the life lived.

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Old 03-27-2013, 07:06 AM
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Quality of life is important. Who ever said it wasn't?

I think improving quality of life is the impetus for quitting for most people.
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Old 03-27-2013, 07:27 AM
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A lot of people actually don't talk about their quality of life.

They prefer to talk about issues or whatever to do with drinking/not drinking. Quality of life is left to be what it is, whatever that is, for a lot of people.

For me, its everything. It trumps everything. Always did. First life then issues is my forever game plan. Everything else is just the cost of the freight to arrive at quality town. Less is more. Baggage is expensive to travel around with.
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Old 03-27-2013, 07:42 AM
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Ahh! quality of life, an ages old dilema. Who gets to define what that means? One guy might be happy in a cabin in the wilderness and another may need to be one of the masters of the universe on wall street. Is there really a right and wrong to it or is it all about being true to yourself. In some cases if making the best of a bad situation is the best one can cobble together is that really so wrong?

What of the person that gives sobriety an honest try and decides they were happier the other way around? I have known people in this catagory, they just seem to be unable to find joy in a sober all the time life. What about that group?
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Old 03-27-2013, 07:45 AM
  # 240 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by BackToSquareOne View Post
Ahh! quality of life, an ages old dilema. Who gets to define what that means? One guy might be happy in a cabin in the wilderness and another may need to be one of the masters of the universe on wall street. Is there really a right and wrong to it or is it all about being true to yourself. In some cases if making the best of a bad situation is the best one can cobble together is that really so wrong?

What of the person that gives sobriety an honest try and decides they were happier the other way around? I have known people in this catagory, they just seem to be unable to find joy in a sober all the time life. What about that group?


Wow BTSO. Very true.... but, imo that person should be left alone then right? Quality of life truly is just perception?
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