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Old 03-09-2013, 11:01 AM
  # 101 (permalink)  
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I will tread very lightly here out of respect to Robby and the mods... Disease thinking did lead me to relapse. It was the best excuse ever. "I cannot control picking up the first drink"... I used it for a long time.
Then I came to this conclusion... It is possible I have the "disease of alcoholism". The only known cure is abstinence. I may just seek "deeep pleasure" from alcohol which means one will never be enough to satisfy my beasts' appetite once I start. Only way to avoid that happening is abstinence. Either way I can't rationally put any alcohol in my body
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Old 03-09-2013, 11:44 AM
  # 102 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by RobbyRobot View Post

With AVRT, the Beast is an maladaptive desire for alcohol/drugs and nothing but. The desire is healthy, the maladaption is not good for us because alcohol/drugs can kill us dead, wreck our lives, etc. All other human desires have nothing remarkable whatever to do with AVRT, and the Beast will only be satisfied with alcohol/drugs.

In this thread, we don't really want to get side-tracked about whatever problem we might or might not have philosophically/scientifically with AVRT. For AVRT, Addictive Voice is the sole cause of the addiction, and once the AV is discovered and dismissed, so ends the addiction. Period.

This thread does enjoy our sharing of our experiences while practicing AVRT and (perhaps) other supports and or programs, as long as we don't get into soap-boxing for one way over another. I'm not big on promoting whatever.

FWIW, I am a recovered alcoholic drug addict. I happily "do" AA and AVRT no problemo, and have done so successfully for decades now.
Who is to say that its not the AV that is genetic?
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Old 03-09-2013, 04:23 PM
  # 103 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by shockozulu View Post
Who is to say that its not the AV that is genetic?
Well, not me, LOL!



It is interesting of course for me this thread because I do have the illness of alcoholism, as defined by AA, and AVRT has no tolerance for alcoholism. There is really no way around how AVRT see's my alcoholism. Not that I care, of course, but it does bring up some interesting AV, as might be imagined and totally expected. My Beast/AV love this kind of conditional illness of mine, and play it out for me unending, lol.

AV is the sole cause of addiction according to how AVRT was carefully documented as a thinking technique to quit drinking and then summarily cure addiction, as defined by Rational Recovery/AVRT. For me, I'm at odds with that definition, and as well my alcoholism illness has no known cure. In my early years of working AA and AVRT the intense personal internal firefights being experienced by me were something else, hahaha.

To be fair, many folks thought I was doomed to fail with my chosen path. It's not for everyone of course, but its very doable.

As for is my AV or my alcoholism genetic, (or anyone's) I have no interest either way for myself, or others. I continue to deal simply enough with my addiction, even though I myself enjoy challenging complications to no end!!
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Old 03-09-2013, 06:40 PM
  # 104 (permalink)  
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This is in part from a discussion initiated at Nonsensical's awesome thread. Clicking the quote arrows will take you there. Meanwhile, I've moved some of my part of conversation here so as to deepen my answers without having to hi-jack, and to also flesh out a fuller meaning of this thread too.


Originally Posted by RobbyRobot View Post
I'm still of a different view here about saying never, and then returning to drinking anyways. Never means never, and when never doesn't come true, something has to answer for that reality. Sure, I said never and went back to drinking in my day too, but I would also accept I didn't really mean never, and in fact, I would also agree I didn't even mean really quit. I really actually meant just quit between drinks which really finally means controlled drinking. I'm not seeking agreement, I'm just saying how it was and still is for me.

It's not that I don't believe you, its that I can't agree that AVRT wasn't working for you even when you didn't know about AVRT proper. As has been said a million times, AVRT is as old as the hills, and has been used for centuries already.

I achieved separation because I had actually created a BP, as is now described in AVRT as written by Jack Trimpey, and I had no present knowledge of AVRT.

So for me, that's how it sits. Quit means quit. Never means never. When that doesn't happen, something is not wholly squared away... and that something is not missing recognition, is my experience.
Originally Posted by soberlicious View Post
Well, yes, obviously something is not wholly squared away, but I'm curious as to why you think it may not be missing recognition of the AV that could throw a cog in the machine? I think missing recognition is huge. Within AVRT, that's how the beast gains control.
Chapter 13 of RR:The New Cure talks about drinking in violation of the BP. This discussion got me thinking about it, so it was an interesting reread for me.
Its all about perspective relative to the observer. I've no experience with returning to drink after quitting for now and forever back in July 22 1981. The difference this last time and the times before is times before I didn't sincerely mean to actually quit, and certainly not forever. To be blunt, I simply meant to control my drinking, moderate it, even though I was earlier times stating I wanted to quit for ever, in all honesty, and as later proved by me by returning to drinking, I simply wanted a break between drinks. As difficult as that was for me to face, that was the truth of it for me.

In that special day in July '81, things were different. That day I didn't care about how I quit, or why I was quitting, or if it would work, or what sobriety could be, or if alcoholism was an illness or not, of if AA worked, or if God was real, or anything ******* else either -- except I totally knew I was gonna die drunk if I kept drinking. No way out. Done. Drink and die. End of story.

The other thing going on was of course I was actually drinking myself to death because I wanted to die. I'm no dummy, and life sucked for me in ways that words just fail. Addiction ambivalence was working me like a pump handle -- "yeah, this is killing me" "yeah, I wanna die anyways, and this is ******* doing it" "no ******* way I'm gonna die drunk!" "**** this! I'm never drinking again!"

So now the stage is set -- and its now either way I'm screwed -- I wanna die anyways -- and I finally really now know I don't wanna die drunk because I'm about to really actually quit for now and always. Well, **** me. Now what? Dead is dead, so wtf?

Well, something in me did die that day. My personal understanding of conditional crap paralysing me and drowning me in a sea of rhetorical ******** died. I gave up not just on drinking, but on everything, including suicide as a final answer to my sorry life.

I threw everything into the bonfire of my intellectual/emotional vanities, and let it burn itself out. For the next few weeks of my supervised detox I was interested in the truth of whatever. I couldn't of cared less what was real or not. I just didn't want to die drunk, and I wanted to care about living again enough not to suicide now that I no longer would have alcohol to blame for wanting to die, I had to face my sorry life f2f with myself in my detox.

Okay, enough already. Still makes me sick to this day sharing about this, at this level, and I'm 31 years later now since my detox. Ugly doesn't to it justice. Hateful and lost in space starts to qualify me back then. I was already tagged with being an undifferentiated chronic schizophrenic, and that certainly brought its own issues to the table when I detoxed, and began my recovery, lol.

I was already 5 years sober when Rational Recovery hit the California scene in 1986 with self-help meetings. "The Small Book" was finally commercially published 1992, after three in-house (Rational Recovery) self-revisions. "Rational Recovery: The New Cure For Substance Addiction" - Jack Trimpey's definitive writings on AVRT wasn't first published until 1996. By then I was 15 years sober.

Hmmm.

I didn't actually read the entire/most of the book RR:TNC until last year, while reading up on the thread started by TU. Last year I was over 30 years sober.

Hmmm.

And yet I was using my own understanding of AVRT from back in 1981. No big deal in itself, but when I discuss my experiences with others using AVRT, I kinda notice I'm a bit off the well-trodden path, lol.

For me, when the last time me, or anyone else, imo, quits drinking, the only truth they have for sure is the truth they have since their last drink. Other times before their last drink, not so much...

For me, whatever I said about quitting and then not actually quitting equates out for my that I was not really about quitting, no matter how sincere I thought I was, I wasn't. This is just simple truth for me. Quitting forever simply works forever. Anything less, works for less. Simple. No other way for me to look at it and still hold my head up as I take in my present 31 years of abstinence/sobriety.

When I quit forever back in 1981, my alcoholic mind screamed at me that I was just lying again, and I would soon be begging for a drink. I just laughed too myself, and I accepted that there would be begging alright, and it wouldn't be me doing the begging anymore. Yeah, there are lies and falsehoods aplenty flying around alright, and its not me lying this time around.

Because if it really was me, I would be drunk, and since I'm not drunk, it sure as **** isn't me wanting that lousy drink anymore!!!

Well... I ******* took off like a rocket when that really sunk into my awareness. Look out world... Robby finally has a way home. For the first time since I was ******* 12 years old, I had a way back home. I was 24 when I last detoxed. I'm 55 now. What a long, strange trip it's been, lol.

So for me, the "never drink again" angle brought out my AV like I was throwing gasoline unto my alcoholic mind. Everything burned down to ashes within 90 days, and I've been on the upside ever since.

Quit means quit. Never means never. This is enough to totally have my Beast screaming out its AV at me. Nothing else is needed for me to more understand to appreciate my Beast screaming at me.

I'm not saying what ever against anyone who has differing experiences then me with their Beast/AV and AVRT. I have no reason to task them, and certainly, where I have come from, no place to judge others.

I've probably not explained very well much of anything to help with your curiosity soberlicious. I do hope though that I have explained why I see things as I do with AV.

For me, to even consider that I could have failed in my quitting drinking by not understanding enough about AV is in itself just more AV... you know?

So naturally, I see it the same for others who quit and returned to drinking. It doesn't make me right, it just makes me honest with myself on how I see things based on my experiences with quitting forever, and AVRT.

For me it is conditional thinking to think that misunderstanding AV could eventually corrupt a BIG PLAN enough to falsify a quit forever commitment to myself.

With AVRT any and all conditions attached to not drinking equate to AV. The only way I know now to get back to drinking would be to destroy myself enough to not care about my sobriety, my sanity, my life -- and even then, I would still hear my AV screaming at me to hurry up and ****myself so that IT could have a lousy drink!!

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Old 03-09-2013, 07:21 PM
  # 105 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by RobbyRobot
I've probably not explained very well much of anything to help with your curiosity soberlicious. I do hope though that I have explained why I see things as I do with AV
.Um...yeah, no not really. I appreciate you sharing your story though. As you know, we have the whole wanting to be dead thing in common.
For me it is conditional thinking to think that misunderstanding AV could eventually corrupt a BIG PLAN enough to falsify a quit forever commitment to myself.
I believe that being able to recognize AV is a key piece in ending an addiction.
For me, when the last time me, or anyone else, imo, quits drinking, the only truth they have for sure is the truth they have since their last drink. Other times before their last drink, not so much...
I learned a lot in 10 years of abstinence. I would not discount those years as false, lost, or otherwise invaluable because there was a subsequent return to drinking.

What I was asking was, would you agree that Addictive Voice Recognition is an important part of the AVRT method? Through the lens of AVRT, how important do you think AV recognition is in being able to end addiction? Can one have a BP without effectively being able to identify the AV? I'd be interested in everyone's responses.
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Old 03-09-2013, 07:57 PM
  # 106 (permalink)  
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What I was asking was, would you agree that Addictive Voice Recognition is an important part of the AVRT method?
Is Addictive Voice recognition important to Addictive Voice Recognition Technique? I try to keep things simple, so I am going to go with a Yes answer here on this one.

Through the lens of AVRT, how important do you think AV recognition is in being able to end addiction?
I believe it is essential, a priori, given the specified context.

Can one have a BP without effectively being able to identify the AV?
This is the same question as - Is AV recognition necessary for a Big Plan? I am not sure, but I believe that a Big Plan is necessary for AV recognition. This one is tricky though and the questions of sufficiency and necessity really push these questions out into the rarefied air of embiggened words.

I put em both together the way it says on the box.
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Old 03-09-2013, 08:09 PM
  # 107 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by soberlicious View Post
What I was asking was, would you agree that Addictive Voice Recognition is an important part of the AVRT method? Through the lens of AVRT, how important do you think AV recognition is in being able to end addiction? Can one have a BP without effectively being able to identify the AV? I'd be interested in everyone's responses.
Okay then,

Yes, AV recognition is everything. No AV recognition, no ending the addiction. No separation. zilch. As to is partial recognition possible with a BP in place? I suppose, if one doesn't really believe in their BP.

Through the lens of AVRT, AV recognition is absolutely essential. As to how much is enough...? we seem to disagree on that.

Having a BP absolutely creates the separation of I and IT. Being able to be aware of that separation is simplistic when one believes in the veracity of their BP.
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Old 03-09-2013, 08:45 PM
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Originally Posted by RobbyRobot
Through the lens of AVRT, AV recognition is absolutely essential. As to how much is enough...? we seem to disagree on that.
How much? I don't think there are degrees. You either recognize it or you don't. I will use this analogy because I know you understand IEPs and behavioral goals. This was a real goal written on an IEP, which has obvious flaws:"Suzy will successfully cross the street in 8 out of 10 trials." Some goals cannot be measured by percentages, or degrees. They are pass or fail. AV recognition is like that. It only takes one time for the beast to gain control. Hence, the simple definition: any thought that suggests drinking =AV.

I believe there is a reason that RR:The New Cure first introduces the concept of being of two minds, then explains how to identify and separate from the AV, then outlines the process of making a Big Plan...In that order.
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Old 03-09-2013, 08:54 PM
  # 109 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by soberlicious View Post
How much? I don't think there are degrees. You either recognize it or you don't.
Okay, well then we are in complete agreement!! I too say it is or it isn't when it comes to AV. Once one appreciates the separation, it is impossible to not "see" it.... yeah?!

So if we both agree.... wtf are we discussing? I was sure you had earlier said you missed identifying some AV while at other times you successfully identified AV as being separated, yeah?



p.s. Yes, I understand IEP (Individual Education Plans)
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Old 03-09-2013, 09:06 PM
  # 110 (permalink)  
 
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Once one appreciates the separation, it is impossible to not "see" it.... yeah?!
Exactly! and conversely, when one does not understand separation and thinks they are of one mind...then it is not possible to "see" it. Hence what I believe happened to me.

I was sure you had earlier said you missed identifying some AV while at other times you successfully identified AV as being separated, yeah?
Actually, I was musing that over the course of 10 years I must have had some beast activity that I dealt with...doesn't seem possible to not have, but I don't recollect it. In any event, I didn't have a conscious understanding of separation.

ps sidenote I love when people say wtf

and yes, I knew you knew about IEPs
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Old 03-09-2013, 09:25 PM
  # 111 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by soberlicious View Post
Exactly! and conversely, when one does not understand separation and thinks they are of one mind...then it is not possible to "see" it. Hence what I believe happened to me.

Actually, I was musing that over the course of 10 years I must have had some beast activity that I dealt with...doesn't seem possible to not have, but I don't recollect it. In any event, I didn't have a conscious understanding of separation.

ps sidenote I love when people say wtf

and yes, I knew you knew about IEPs
Okay, if you're stating that during the course of that described 10 years you did not have a conscious understanding of separation -- well then of course you would eventually return to drinking absolutely. My bad. I was sure you had suggested your understanding was up and down and at times ineffective, but that you did have one nonetheless. I simply could not except the suggested variations. I see now I misunderstood, since obviously we are in agreement. Isn't discourse a wonderful thing, lol.



Glad you and I worked this out to a mutual understanding, soberlicious.

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Old 03-09-2013, 09:41 PM
  # 112 (permalink)  
 
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As I said before, I don't mind your analysis of my past reversal of intent. I guess I could accept that I was taking a break in between drinks, but 10 years is an impressive break for any drunk, all methods aside. I was doing something effective, but what that was I couldn't articulate beyond "I don't drink". I certainly see the importance of metacognition now.
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Old 03-09-2013, 10:04 PM
  # 113 (permalink)  
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The part that gets confusing is where a big plan is necessary for the separation to occur. From a mindfulness perspective that makes less than zero sense. The thing to keep in mind is that ordinary mindfulness does not treat the primitive brains desires as anything special. In mindfulness all thoughts are just thoughts and you don't have to act on any of them.

I have to constantly keep in mind that I'm thinking in mindfulness terms while Robby is explaining in AVRT terms. Those 2 do play well together even tho they have some differences. Mindfulness for example does not care that to the primitive brain the desire for alcohol is a perfectly reasonable request. To mindfulness it's just a thought. Interesting discussion tho.
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Old 03-09-2013, 11:04 PM
  # 114 (permalink)  
 
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The part that gets confusing is where a big plan is necessary for the separation to occur. From a mindfulness perspective that makes less than zero sense.
I agree that it doesn't make sense. It is my understanding that is not the AVRT perspective on it either.
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Old 03-09-2013, 11:27 PM
  # 115 (permalink)  
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Just wanted to chime in... I used AVRT to help me quit drinking. I found the Big plan extremely helpful because it was the most important promise I have ever made to myself. I decided this promise comes before all other things in my life.

For me, the big plan was not necessary for separation to occur. Separation just reminds me that I have the power over "IT" or "The Beast" so I can keep this promise to myself.
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Old 03-10-2013, 03:17 AM
  # 116 (permalink)  
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And, again, I have no BP, but I recognize that I have an AV. In fact, I embrace that I have an AV. It explains my past behavior (and current compulsion) in a way that finally makes sense.

I have been sober 6 weeks and recognizing my AV for about 5 weeks. At no time during that period would it have been a 'good idea' for me to have had a drink. Yet, I've felt a compulsion to drink. I could identify it as AV and tell it "no". In Latin they call that "easy peasy".
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Old 03-10-2013, 04:27 AM
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The way it works for me, Nonsensical, is that the BP helps me to recognize the AV. It isn't necessary for the separation aspect. I've described my BP as a line in the sand, and this unambiguous declaration of intent assists in the classification part of the tool by providing a context for my awareness.
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Old 03-10-2013, 04:33 AM
  # 118 (permalink)  
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Thanks for your input all.

I will try to share to my view on these matters, but I must say it will be difficult to do that without saying some things that might be seen as criticism or at least a different view than AVRT. To be honest that is a bit of problem for most of the recovery methods, they leave very little room to evolve and become better as they use a book or given set of rules that once set, are difficult to change. On the other hand I can see the benefit of that, as people in recovery need stability and clear guidelines.

But to make it clear: AA and AVRT helped me a lot, for example AA with the realization that I am totally powerless over alcohol once I take that first drink or the idea to repair as much of the damage I done by drinking to others, by doing good things now and in the future. AVRT helped me to understand that the only solution for my alcoholism is to never drink again and gave my insight how the pleasure center of my brain affects my thinking.

So perhaps one day I will start my own thread , using all the good stuff from various programs and combining it with science: Scientific Recovery (oh wait that will be SR - too much confusion ) or Recovery by Science (RBS - that sounds better).

To answer your questions and remarks. In the beginning it was difficult for me just to say No, without understanding why and having arguments to back up that answer. I am an insecure and impulsive person, as my life has been characterized by doubt and stupid decisions. Once I had my 3 points why I can't ever drink, saying No became a lot easier, as it was backed up by logic. The example I gave is an extreme one, it rarely happens that I have to use all 3 arguments. Over time the No has become shorter and more determined, something closer to what Nonsensical has mentioned with the dog example. However I still have the comfort of a rational and logical explanation of the No, if needed.

The same arguments were true for the Big Plan, first I needed solid foundation to build upon, an explanation why I can't ever drink again.

Originally Posted by RobbyRobot View Post
For AVRT, Addictive Voice is the sole cause of the addiction, and once the AV is discovered and dismissed, so ends the addiction. Period.
I think this is the main problem for me. I wish it would be that easy. First of all we don't really know what the AV is (at least I don't). From wiki: the AV can be physiologically understood as being related to the parts of the human brain that control our core survival functions such as hunger, sex, and bowel control. In my opinion this is where science can help to understand where this desires come from. For example people with low risk for cocaine dependence have different shaped brain compared to those with addiction: http://medicalxpress.com/news/2013-0...-addiction.htm

Wouldn't it be easier if we had some evidence or understanding that the AV is a part of our ancient brain and we are actually able to influence it with our behavior? For example we can stop a panic attack or release stress by doing breathing exercises, something that directly influences that old, animal parts of the brain. If the Beast doesn't have any regard for morality, success or responsibility then it doesn't know the difference between good or bad, just the thirst for pleasure. But if we feed it with good things like physical activity (a release of endorphins a natural high), success with personal or family issues, general improvement of health or a sense of well being, then it will change and slowly forget the thirst and pleasure from alcohol. So I think that the Beast isn't actually a beast, but an Animal that became a Beast through either our actions, genetic predisposition or more likely, a combination of both. This would fit much more with the current theories of addiction being at least partially caused by genetics.

Also an interesting question here was: Do we still want to drink? That's a tough one, but if that means if I would like to have the experience of mild relaxation that I had after 1-2 drinks when I started drinking and were still able to control it and stop after those 2 drinks, then the answer is yes. But I know that this impossible, that I can't ever reach that state of mind with alcohol, because the first drink would trigger the old neural network created by the years of drinking, turning the Animal into a Beast again. However I can reach a similar state of mind by doing a positive thing, for example like a long cycling ride or teaching my young niece mathematics.

Most (if not all) addicts have problems with impulsive and/or risk-seeking behavior. This might be caused by genetics too. While some people feed that need with alcohol or drugs, others counter that with sports, bungee-jumping or other activities. I think that for a good recovery program we need more insight what addiction is, what is causing addiction, how it develops over the years and most important what actions or processes can stop the addiction and/or (depending on what addiction is) substitute it with positive behavior.

That's my 2 cents and sorry for hijacking your thread Robbie
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Old 03-10-2013, 05:36 AM
  # 119 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by RobbyRobot View Post
Having a BP absolutely creates the separation of I and IT. Being able to be aware of that separation is simplistic when one believes in the veracity of their BP.
Okay, this above doesn't mean an ideal BP is required to recognize AV. What I'm saying above, is that a BP absolutely creates the separation to easily recognize AV. For me, once a BP is made, its impossible to not recognize AV.

Still though, there must be some kind of "I want to quit" statement or otherwise a same kind of decision in whatever form... not always of course as an ideal AVRT BP.

If there does not exist any kind of "I want to quit" there can not be any kind separation of "I" and "IT" is my thinking on the matter.

I'm pretty sure many, many people hear their "AV" and they haven't a single clue of what is or is not a formal ideal AVRT BP.

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Old 03-10-2013, 05:39 AM
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I think these shares might add to the conversation too

Originally Posted by Terminally Unique View Post
There is a reason that half-hearted "Big Plans" don't work. If the plan is not forever, you won't actually hear the Addictive Voice in all its glory. If you try this simple exercise, you'll see what I mean...

Say the following to yourself, in order, and after each one, observe your thoughts and feelings for a few minutes.

  1. I will not drink/use just for today.
  2. I will not drink/use for a month.
  3. I will not drink/use for six months.
  4. I will not drink/use for a year.
  5. I will never drink/use again.
  6. I will never drink/use again, and I will never change my mind.
At the lower items, particularly the first one, you won't feel much anxiety or head noise. As you move down the list, though, you should notice increased anxiety and head noise. Even at item number five, though, you probably won't yet feel the full anxiety and head noise, because you still reserve the option to change your mind.
Originally Posted by Terminally Unique View Post
This is excerpted from a Jack Trimpey / Albert Ellis Debate (1994) on AVRT, which pretty much sums up the difference between AVRT and a "reasoning" approach, in my opinion.
"AVRT declares that the sole cause of all substance addiction is the Addictive Voice, which is the cognitive-emotive expression of an immutable, substance-specific appetite for the pleasure produced by those substances. The Addictive Voice is accepted as a permanent feature of one's psyche, partitioned off from the "true self" through a number of simple dissociative techniques, and then observed rather than acted upon...

In AVRT, there are no conditions for abstinence or for relapse, nor are there any triggers, warning signs of relapse, psychiatric diagnoses, or thresholds of tolerance, that suffice to justify or explain why one would choose to self-intoxicate. AVRT is a mental sorting skill - a filter - that prevents any further use of alcohol or drugs, regardless of "disposing factors." It is completely independent from all philosophies, schools of psychology, and religious doctrines. Indeed, those epistemologies and methodologies, when posed as a primary means to achieve abstinence, may be properly identified as the Addictive Voice itself...

AVRT creates a combative, oppositional attitude patterned after the Addictive Voice itself, and it is not a contemplative, reasoning, approach like REBT."

Originally Posted by Terminally Unique View Post
There are two "versions" of AVRT, so to speak. In the first, the "Big Plan" is simply a decision on permanent abstinence, and the reasons for deciding on permanent abstinence are left up to the individual, and may certainly vary from person to person. One person my decide not to drink/use again because if they do, they will lose their family, while another may do so for more materialistic reasons, such as a desire to get ahead in business.

In the second variation on AVRT, though, drinking/using, in and of itself, is viewed as wrong, in the moral sense. I myself certainly balked at this suggestion initially, but if you can get yourself to accept that for you, drinking/using is not only immoral, but also the most immoral act of all, it can be prove extremely effective against the AV.

Except for people who are sociopaths, everyone has a moral conscience which will kick in automatically when contemplating doing something that we feel is morally wrong. If you can convince yourself that your drinking/using is highly immoral conduct, this reflex will kick in automatically and identify the AV almost instantly when it appears. It took me a while to get to that point, but eventually, I did.

It is not easy to do, particularly since addiction is not generally viewed as a "moral issue" these days, but if you can do it, it is extremely powerful. Once at that point, the mere suggestion of any further drinking/using is enough to cause an instinctive, almost automatic recoil.
I'm in complete agreement with all the above.
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