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Old 03-07-2013, 09:49 PM
  # 81 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by BackToSquareOne View Post
Here's a good question. What are the odds of AVRT working for someone stuck in the middle? What of the person who knows they need to quit but a big part of them still wants to drink or use. The type of person that's highly motivated while going thru withdrawal/detox but finds that their motivation slips away as soon as they start to feel better. That was me for many decades.
AVRT requires a BP to actually achieve separation - and a BP equates to choosing unconditionally to never again drink in the now or any time in the future. No matter what.

So if doubt starts to come onto the scene, if motivation starts to slip away, this would fire up some intensive AV, and the fireworks would be very evident that future drinking is being penciled onto the menu, so to speak.

A BP, on its own, can't fail, all else being equal. What can happen, is the original BP is not in fact believed, and this then would not create AV to be recognised, and so separation would not occur, and so drinking would sooner or later be inked onto the menu along with the daily special no less.
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Old 03-07-2013, 10:10 PM
  # 82 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by BackToSquareOne View Post
I threw in the towel for good in 2008 using mostly mindfulness. There was a big difference tho, I felt a "shift" had occurred. I knew I was done with it, my deck of cards was out of any desire at all to put myself thru any of that again. It took over 3 decades to reach that point so I'm not much of a success story.

In the past I was 100% sincere in my efforts but about 6 months was the best I ever managed in my earlier attempts. I have no way of knowing if a big plan would have made a difference or not. Is a big plan any match for free will, flux, flo and all of that? What if my free will wanted to resume my old ways?
You do have a success story. "Mindfulness" is your AVRT. "Throwing in the towel" is your Big Plan.

I have been waiting years for someone, anyone, to prove to me that a Big Plan failed to work.
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Old 03-08-2013, 06:20 AM
  # 83 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by BackToSquareOne View Post
I threw in the towel for good in 2008 using mostly mindfulness. There was a big difference tho, I felt a "shift" had occurred. I knew I was done with it, my deck of cards was out of any desire at all to put myself thru any of that again. It took over 3 decades to reach that point so I'm not much of a success story.

In the past I was 100% sincere in my efforts but about 6 months was the best I ever managed in my earlier attempts. I have no way of knowing if a big plan would have made a difference or not. Is a big plan any match for free will, flux, flo and all of that? What if my free will wanted to resume my old ways?
For me anyways, free will potentially trumps whatever else as a decisive natural human force. The break-line though is of course the conditional differences between internal / external realities, and the human instinctive survival drives which can in many ways hobble free will to in effect be reduced to just common thinking routine behaviors, everything nice and safe, and in-the-box conditioned living.

So, MY BP would not survive my freewill to destroy it if that was my actual free choice. AVRT is nothing more than a technique, and the technique works for me because I use skills to employ that function, empowered by my free will to do so. I can't change how AVRT works of course, but I certainly can choose I don't want the results that a BP provides for me if I so decided. It would only require me, because of my actual life success with AVRT, to constantly believe a lie that AVRT fails me and this would be the easiest path; or I could remake my psyche in a way that no longer embraces rational modalities, and for example, just go all faith, and simply exist on a plane where rational reasoning is second place to the power of faith.

I'm not speaking for everyone or anyone besides myself. As you can imagine, my Beast (my alcoholic mind) as already explored all these options, and here I remain with my BP (sober mind) in place and me happily truckin' forward, lol.

Ain't living a clean life simply to die for, eh?!!

I also want to say BTSO, you're doing great without AVRT proper, the way I see YOU living free and successfully happy. What you got going with mindfulness and quitting works well of course, and at the end of the day, that is what makes all the difference.

Whatever works by any other name is still a most desirable rose amongst the alternatives.

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Old 03-08-2013, 07:08 AM
  # 84 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by RobbyRobot View Post
AVRT requires a BP to actually achieve separation.
I've no BP, but I would argue that I have achieved at least partial separation.
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Old 03-08-2013, 07:20 AM
  # 85 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Nonsensical View Post
I've no BP, but I would argue that I have achieved at least partial separation.
Yes, I would heartily agree. My meaning of "separation" is more attuned to the ideal experience of unconditional separation between I and IT. Experiencing that ideal separation across all challenges and forever unending is what I'm describing.

If I may, you have achieved not so much a "partial" recognition of the Beast and IT's AV, but more a "conditional" recognition presently speaking, which will become wholly unconditional when you choose to create a classic BP.

Make sense?

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Old 03-08-2013, 07:25 AM
  # 86 (permalink)  
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Your big words frighten and confuse my inner caveman.
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Old 03-08-2013, 07:31 AM
  # 87 (permalink)  
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Nonsensical,
thanks for the morning laugh!
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Old 03-09-2013, 07:35 AM
  # 88 (permalink)  
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I love this thread. My Monday is Saturday (as far as work week) so I get to come in and catch up with whats been going on. I agree so much with Robby's post that of-course my free will could destroy my BP if I were to make that choice..(sorry to paraphrase Robby but, would have been a long quote...lol). However, I have found that the choice to drink becomes more and more "irrational" if I must, and my BP more difficult to break as time moves on. I have found thoughts of drinking to be coupled and countered quite quickly with thoughts of "that is a very stupid idea". I am not calling anyone stupid but, I do call my own thoughts of drinking "stupid".
What I find that I really love about RR (not Robby Robot but Rational Recovery... hee, hee) is that it is so simple. I love that the choice is made and I now live my life as a non-drinker. The rest I find is falling into place.
Soberlicious( I think it was you), you make an excellent point as well when you speak of "learned helplessness" in your previous post. I feel it does do a huge injustice to certain types of people. When asked recently "how did you quit drinking" by my brother I answered "well my first step was to no longer drink for any reason" he said "oh well I cant do that". I am so new at sobriety and RR that my only response was to send him a copy of the book but, I thought that was a very sad way to think and I am sooo glad I no longer think that way... but that is just me.
Jess
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Old 03-09-2013, 08:04 AM
  # 89 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by jkb View Post
However, I have found that the choice to drink becomes more and more "irrational" if I must, and my BP more difficult to break as time moves on. I have found thoughts of drinking to be coupled and countered quite quickly with thoughts of "that is a very stupid idea". I am not calling anyone stupid but, I do call my own thoughts of drinking "stupid".
Awesome!

You're on the cutting edge of what defines our thoughts separated from IT's thoughts. I too think for myself all thoughts of drinking are stupid, and AVRT assigns all such drinking thoughts to my AV of course. This is the whole deal, when we can simply allow AV to be what it is, -- any thoughts, ideas, feelings, images of drinking and or future drinking -- and we just calmly recognise it, think what we think to dismiss it after recognition, and get on with our whatever we're doing.

It's like auto-destruct when we match thoughts for thoughts and dismiss the Beast and IT's AV. It's not a conversation with IT, its not an argument, its a confident indifference, and next instant moving on with ourselves in a matter-of-fact way.

Peace of mind. Freedom of thought. Priceless.

Thanks for the inspirational share, Jess!
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Old 03-09-2013, 09:12 AM
  # 90 (permalink)  
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Hey guys, can I join this discussion?

I kinda almost have given up on SR till I found these Secular Forums.

I like the idea that jkb proposes a lot. I use a similar logic/scientific argument against any thoughts about drinking.

My 3 point anti-alcoholism mantra:

- Alcoholism is progressive. I can never go back to a previous stage, like moderate drinking.
- Tolerance is forever. No matter how long I will quit, I will be back at the same drinking amount within days.
- The effect of kindling makes every withdrawal worse, till the stage of delirium tremens and possible death.

Those three arguments exclude any rational and logical possibility to pick up a drink, for the rest of my life. I love science and logic and if I started drinking again, it would be like writing down 2+2=3 and claiming that this is true.

I am only 1,5 year sober now, but I have the feeling that slowly some kind of switch has been turned. I know that I am powerless over alcohol ONCE I take that first drink, but as long as I don't do that, I am the one who has the power and control over not-drinking.

It's a bit against AVRT, but when I get thoughts about drinking, I just counter these thoughts with those 3 points mentioned above.

For example: I am invited to a party, perhaps I should have one to relax (AV)? Counter: No you can't have one, because of the tolerance one will not be enough. Once you take one or more, you will end up binge drinking for days as your alcoholism already progressed that far. Then it's either binge drinking till death or facing another horrible withdrawal because of the kindling effect. Conclusion: I can't drink, so STFU AV

Do you guys think that's a valid way of thinking, or are there some kind of traps in this logic that I'm missing?
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Old 03-09-2013, 09:14 AM
  # 91 (permalink)  
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heehee im with nonsensical on this,,dear robby robot,,my clever friend,,,
i think hes got a dictionary nxt to him,,when he posts on ere,,i think hes just cheating,,,i wonder if we could test him??
maybe start a new thread,,,called,,,"robbys big word meanings" ,,,,???
shall we do it??
heehee only playin wicha robby,,,but it would be fun,,,but we wouldnt know if you is cheating tho would we????
LOL ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,sorry ,,,im in a silly mood today,,,had a scream with my kids ,,,we were all just aving a huge giggle and im still laughing now,,,maybe i need to lie down??????
help me???
xxx
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Old 03-09-2013, 09:41 AM
  # 92 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Geralt View Post
For example: I am invited to a party, perhaps I should have one to relax (AV)? Counter: No you can't have one, because of the tolerance one will not be enough. Once you take one or more, you will end up binge drinking for days as your alcoholism already progressed that far. Then it's either binge drinking till death or facing another horrible withdrawal because of the kindling effect. Conclusion: I can't drink, so STFU AV

Do you guys think that's a valid way of thinking, or are there some kind of traps in this logic that I'm missing?
Welcome to the conversation, Geralt!

Since you're asking, it sounds to me like you're kinda reasoning with your AV, and if so, that is not a great idea for a few reasons.

Rational conversations with our AV invites more of the same ie longer, more complicated, more intellectual etc. As well, IT (the Beast) also has feelings, and so IT's feelings can come into play in subtle ways which can gain an emotional response from YOU, and it could be difficult to process all that and still be indifferent to the AV.

Using "IT" to reference your AV/Beast is a simple way to reduce confusion since IT objectifies your AV/Beast and all the while YOU are safely yourself as "I" "ME" etc

Does that suggest anything?
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Old 03-09-2013, 09:42 AM
  # 93 (permalink)  
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Hi Cleopatra!!

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Old 03-09-2013, 09:55 AM
  # 94 (permalink)  
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I talk to my beast like I talk to my dogs. My dogs love people food. If you make a sandwich they will follow you around the house hoping you'll drop some or toss them a little piece. If you dropped 50 sandwiches on the floor, they would eat until they were sick. (Very similar to my Beast's response to alcohol, btw.)

My wife cracks me up. She tries to reason with the dogs. "No, you don't need this sandwich. Your food is over there in your bowl. You should go eat your own food. It's better for you, anyway."

I find "NO!" to be much more effective. The dogs actually seem to know what that means.
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Old 03-09-2013, 09:58 AM
  # 95 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Geralt View Post
Hey guys, can I join this discussion?

I kinda almost have given up on SR till I found these Secular Forums.

I like the idea that jkb proposes a lot. I use a similar logic/scientific argument against any thoughts about drinking.

My 3 point anti-alcoholism mantra:

- Alcoholism is progressive. I can never go back to a previous stage, like moderate drinking.
- Tolerance is forever. No matter how long I will quit, I will be back at the same drinking amount within days.
- The effect of kindling makes every withdrawal worse, till the stage of delirium tremens and possible death.

Those three arguments exclude any rational and logical possibility to pick up a drink, for the rest of my life. I love science and logic and if I started drinking again, it would be like writing down 2+2=3 and claiming that this is true.
I am only 1,5 year sober now, but I have the feeling that slowly some kind of switch has been turned. I know that I am powerless over alcohol ONCE I take that first drink, but as long as I don't do that, I am the one who has the power and control over not-drinking.

It's a bit against AVRT, but when I get thoughts about drinking, I just counter these thoughts with those 3 points mentioned above.

For example: I am invited to a party, perhaps I should have one to relax (AV)? Counter: No you can't have one, because of the tolerance one will not be enough. Once you take one or more, you will end up binge drinking for days as your alcoholism already progressed that far. Then it's either binge drinking till death or facing another horrible withdrawal because of the kindling effect. Conclusion: I can't drink, so STFU AV

Do you guys think that's a valid way of thinking, or are there some kind of traps in this logic that I'm missing?
Hi glad you came to the thread. The two points in bold... I use those constantly.

As to how you handle your AV... well, its been working for you for a year and a half...."the proof is in the pudding" as my mom used to say. Others will come along and point out the AV in it if there is any.

Again glad you stopped by... Jess
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Old 03-09-2013, 10:02 AM
  # 96 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by RobbyRobot View Post
Welcome to the conversation, Geralt!

Since you're asking, it sounds to me like you're kinda reasoning with your AV, and if so, that is not a great idea for a few reasons.

Rational conversations with our AV invites more of the same ie longer, more complicated, more intellectual etc. As well, IT (the Beast) also has feelings, and so IT's feelings can come into play in subtle ways which can gain an emotional response from YOU, and it could be difficult to process all that and still be indifferent to the AV.
Using "IT" to reference your AV/Beast is a simple way to reduce confusion since IT objectifies your AV/Beast and all the while YOU are safely yourself as "I" "ME" etc

Does that suggest anything?
I 100% agree with the above though.. I cannot and am learning how NOT to try and "wrestle" with my beast. However is Geralt really reasoning with his beast if he uses the same three bullets constantly or is it just his way of saying "no"?
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Old 03-09-2013, 10:12 AM
  # 97 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by RobbyRobot View Post
Welcome to the conversation, Geralt!

Since you're asking, it sounds to me like you're kinda reasoning with your AV, and if so, that is not a great idea for a few reasons.

Rational conversations with our AV invites more of the same ie longer, more complicated, more intellectual etc. As well, IT (the Beast) also has feelings, and so IT's feelings can come into play in subtle ways which can gain an emotional response from YOU, and it could be difficult to process all that and still be indifferent to the AV.

Using "IT" to reference your AV/Beast is a simple way to reduce confusion since IT objectifies your AV/Beast and all the while YOU are safely yourself as "I" "ME" etc

Does that suggest anything?
Thanks Robby,

That's why I asked the question, as I know that starting a conversation with the AV is not smart according to AVRT. But it's not really a conversation, I just use the same 3 arguments, more like a prayer or a mantra but using logic.

And I noticed that over the last couple of months these "conversations" have become less frequent, shorter and actually less intellectual as my answer is always the same. To use the beast analogy, the growls are weakening.

On the other hand, could it be that I am feeding the beast with substitutes for alcohol, like cycling, physical exercise, enjoyment from work and family life or intellectual progress? Perhaps the beast can't distinguish between alcoholic "pleasure" and normal pleasure from life?

Also the problem I have with RR/AVRT is that is doesn't treat alcoholism like a disease, while most scientific evidence (genetic tests, twin studies, brain scans) qualifies it as a disease. Couldn't it be possible that after a 1-2 year, my brain starts making a new neurological network using different connections (the old alcoholic one stays intact, buried in the long term memory and is activated by drinking - therefore the tolerance and kindling)?

Edit: Wow a lot of new posts and input since I read and reacted to Robbies post, I have to run now, will read and respond tomorrow. Thanks a lot for all the reactions and input!
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Old 03-09-2013, 10:19 AM
  # 98 (permalink)  
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Whatever we personally decide for ourselves, so has to be comfortable with ourselves, our own understandings, our own preferences, our own idiosyncrasies if you will is absolutely NOT a problem, as long as none of this also gives comfort to the AV/Beast.

The trouble with using "YOU" is that is such a common use of talking with ourselves and with others, and so, potentially, the Beast, IT, can make use of that as a shelter of invisibility. We don't want IT being invisible.

We almost never refer to ourselves or others as IT, and so this works well with AVRT and recognising AV/BEAST.

As for is the example given by Geralt just his way of saying "NO", I guess we can all have our own take on that. My preferred take is it is indeed a rational conversation he is having with IT. If so, this is not the easiest way forward, etc.

Awesome discussion!
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Old 03-09-2013, 10:23 AM
  # 99 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Geralt View Post
For example: I am invited to a party, perhaps I should have one to relax (AV)? Counter: No you can't have one, because of the tolerance one will not be enough. Once you take one or more, you will end up binge drinking for days as your alcoholism already progressed that far. Then it's either binge drinking till death or facing another horrible withdrawal because of the kindling effect. Conclusion: I can't drink, so STFU AV
?
This above is what I'm actually referring too when I comment on having a rational conversation.
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Old 03-09-2013, 10:40 AM
  # 100 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Geralt View Post
On the other hand, could it be that I am feeding the beast with substitutes for alcohol, like cycling, physical exercise, enjoyment from work and family life or intellectual progress? Perhaps the beast can't distinguish between alcoholic "pleasure" and normal pleasure from life?
With AVRT, the Beast is an maladaptive desire for alcohol/drugs and nothing but. The desire is healthy, the maladaption is not good for us because alcohol/drugs can kill us dead, wreck our lives, etc. All other human desires have nothing remarkable whatever to do with AVRT, and the Beast will only be satisfied with alcohol/drugs.

Originally Posted by Geralt
Also the problem I have with RR/AVRT is that is doesn't treat alcoholism like a disease, while most scientific evidence (genetic tests, twin studies, brain scans) qualifies it as a disease. Couldn't it be possible that after a 1-2 year, my brain starts making a new neurological network using different connections (the old alcoholic one stays intact, buried in the long term memory and is activated by drinking - therefore the tolerance and kindling)?
In this thread, we don't really want to get side-tracked about whatever problem we might or might not have philosophically/scientifically with AVRT. For AVRT, Addictive Voice is the sole cause of the addiction, and once the AV is discovered and dismissed, so ends the addiction. Period.

This thread does enjoy our sharing of our experiences while practicing AVRT and (perhaps) other supports and or programs, as long as we don't get into soap-boxing for one way over another. I'm not big on promoting whatever.

FWIW, I am a recovered alcoholic drug addict. I happily "do" AA and AVRT no problemo, and have done so successfully for decades now.
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