Blogs


Notices

Robby's Thread

Old 03-27-2013, 07:48 AM
  # 241 (permalink)  
Adventures In SpaceTime
Thread Starter
 
RobbyRobot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,827
Exactly, BTSO. And the discussions with the persons of all your examples is a worthy discussion even more important then which method of recovery or quitting was chosen by whomever, is my point.

Along with my point was my comment how I'm amazed how often people don't talk about what is quality of life for themselves, they talk shop-talk about how they are quitting, and quality takes a back seat.
RobbyRobot is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to RobbyRobot For This Useful Post:
BackToSquareOne (03-27-2013)
Old 03-27-2013, 07:52 AM
  # 242 (permalink)  
Member
 
BackToSquareOne's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Bethlehem, PA.
Posts: 1,782
Originally Posted by jkb View Post
[/B]

Wow BTSO. Very true.... but, imo that person should be left alone then right? Quality of life truly is just perception?
I have a friend like that, inherited mega-money when his father died, tried sobriety many times and claimed he was just never happy. We're still friends and I feel his life style choices are his own so I gave up preaching to him.
BackToSquareOne is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to BackToSquareOne For This Useful Post:
Ajax (04-11-2013), RobbyRobot (03-27-2013)
Old 03-27-2013, 07:55 AM
  # 243 (permalink)  
Adventures In SpaceTime
Thread Starter
 
RobbyRobot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,827
As for the person who honestly continues to drink and at the same time honestly has what they call a quality of life, they are the silent majority which already exist in our society, imo. The social drinker.

They don't refer to themselves as alcoholics, or otherwise addicted to alcohol. They may say they had some problems, dealt with them, and back to drinking, its all good. Live and learn, they just keep going onward, glass in hand when required. Who's to judge them?
RobbyRobot is offline  
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to RobbyRobot For This Useful Post:
Ajax (04-11-2013), BackToSquareOne (03-27-2013), ToddE1 (04-13-2013)
Old 03-27-2013, 10:08 AM
  # 244 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: "I'm not lost for I know where I am. But however, where I am may be lost ..."
Posts: 5,272
There are certainly people who refuse help and choose what would not be considered quality of life for me. But that is their choice, not mine. I believe that people have the right to choose to drink themselves to death, if they wish. Sad? Absolutely. But it is not up to me.

If someone asks me how I quit drinking, I tell them. If someone asks me what makes me happy, I tell them that too. I don't think there is a set "quality of life" template that one could follow, although I do understand that many use the AA fellowship for that and I think that's great.

I have a friend that has 4 children of her own and they adopted 3 more children with special needs. She has created the life she wants. It is rich and fulfilling to her. I, on the other hand, have no desire to have 7 children. That is not "quality" to me.

Making my life as fulfilling as possible is important to me, but I do not base my "sobriety" on that. I am well aware that things beyond my control can happen in life, catastrophic things. If all comes crashing down, I don't want to drink again because my quality of life is suddenly altered. Remaining abstinent no matter what means that I can always rebuild, tweak, learn, grow, change. It means that I can have the quality of life I desire. So if I am involved in a discussion about learning how to quit drinking, I do separate that from quality of life. On purpose.
soberlicious is offline  
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to soberlicious For This Useful Post:
BackToSquareOne (03-27-2013), Received (03-27-2013), RobbyRobot (03-27-2013)
Old 03-27-2013, 10:33 AM
  # 245 (permalink)  
Member
 
BackToSquareOne's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Bethlehem, PA.
Posts: 1,782
So then a bigger question is raised, should sobriety be tied to quality of life? If quality of life is mostly perception and is subjective at its very core then is it not subject to change? If my quality of life were linked to being super rich and shameless and I lost my money and social status would I still have a reason to remain sober?
BackToSquareOne is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to BackToSquareOne For This Useful Post:
RobbyRobot (03-27-2013), soberlicious (03-27-2013)
Old 03-27-2013, 10:43 AM
  # 246 (permalink)  
Member
 
Received's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,090
Originally Posted by soberlicious View Post
snipped for relevance by Received


Making my life as fulfilling as possible is important to me, but I do not base my "sobriety" on that. I am well aware that things beyond my control can happen in life, catastrophic things. If all comes crashing down, I don't want to drink again because my quality of life is suddenly altered. Remaining abstinent no matter what means that I can always rebuild, tweak, learn, grow, change. It means that I can have the quality of life I desire. So if I am involved in a discussion about learning how to quit drinking, I do separate that from quality of life. On purpose.
As importantly to me, sometimes this thing called "quality" of life can be altered in the blink of an eye and what once was "quality" of life becomes just trying to stay alive, sometimes literally moment to moment. Loss of money, possessions and status gone in an instant.

And I so agree with you; discussing how to quit drinking, for me had nothing to do with the quality of my life as it is currently. This was not always true for me as I was indoctrinated for many years into believing the two MUST be intertwined or I would drink again. So many things I HAD to do or I would drink again and I believed it and guess what? I drank again.

What I now know, what I always suspected but was to afraid to question is that is just NOT TRUE. Never drinking again is no longer contingent on anything. Life changes, never drinking again will not.
Received is offline  
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Received For This Useful Post:
freshstart57 (03-27-2013), LosingmyMisery (04-07-2013), soberlicious (03-27-2013)
Old 03-27-2013, 10:44 AM
  # 247 (permalink)  
Member
 
SoberKnitter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Texas
Posts: 177
I think the focus on ending an addiction and how to go about it, as opposed to a focus on quality of life is because, for me anyway, "the good life" is absolutely unattainable if I'm drinking or using. Abstinence from intoxicants is the foundation that quality of life is built on. I just recently quit, so I'm putting a lot of focus on that foundation. I am, for the first time, excited about my future and am putting together some goals, but right now my priority is using AVRT.

I went to knitting group last night. My friends and I were together doing a hobby we enjoy; a great recipe for adding to the quality of my life. I was being bombarded by my AV because they were drinking wine, and dismissing it was my first priority, even more important than enjoying time with my friends, which I still did.

I listened to an interesting podcast yesterday about the difference between local and global decisions about what will make a good experience. A local decision is one that asks what will make the next few minutes the most pleasant. Last night, a local decision would have had me downing wine. A global decision takes into account a longer period of time (considering one's future self when trying to optimize pleasure). Global decisions all come from our prefrontal cortex. The beast, like all animals, can only make local decisions.
SoberKnitter is offline  
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to SoberKnitter For This Useful Post:
freshstart57 (03-27-2013), Received (03-27-2013), soberlicious (03-27-2013)
Old 03-27-2013, 12:08 PM
  # 248 (permalink)  
Adventures In SpaceTime
Thread Starter
 
RobbyRobot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,827
Like I said earlier, most want to talk about issues around quitting rather than issues around quality of life.

My own sobriety is built unconditionally on the foundation of my quality of life experiences. This does not mean to me that my sobriety is somehow compromised or at risk whatsoever. As is clearly agreed between us all, apparently, is quality of life is an individual choice to make or not, and I have chosen my individual life first, my sobriety secondly, and lastly my spiritual responsibilities, all intertwined into an holistic dynamic inter-dependent "me"

When I last drank, I was agnostic, I didn't care what sobriety was or wasn't, I just didn't want to die drunk anymore. I quit unconditionally. I simply without justification quit drinking because drinking was killing me inside and out.

Since quitting, I use AA and AVRT, as tools and techniques, as well as Gestalt therapy, to ensure my past drinking days stay in my past life, keep me moving forward, and bring me the life I am seeking. And so, this works well for me many years now.

I've experienced being both poor and wealthy, and neither has broken or defined my quality of life, because there is more to life then money can provide. Money really can't buy happiness. It can however buy plenty of misery.

And health too is something I have both experienced being very ill and disabled, and also very fortunate to overcome my perceived barriers and become a well enabled person and much less a disabled person, even though I'm clearly challenged in more ways then is common or average, speaking relatively.

Being poor and in ill health is also not a sure path to enlightenment though, either. Living paycheck to paycheck is not a prerequisite for an inside track with wisdom. Poverty is a fertile soil for all kinds of misfortune to manifest. Failing health and the suffering that can go with it are no secret gifts that give more then they take either, is my experience.

Quality of life is an experience, the way I see it. An experience like no other. Quality of life is not something that can be physically grasped. It cannot be traded or auctioned. It cannot be bought or sold. Quality of life is the opposite of just living. Quality of life is living as ourselves as authentic individuals, and not just another human on the planet amongst billions of others.

Quality of life is an inside job and can best be experienced by being absolutely unconditionally built around and of life experiences. Quality of life can be destroyed by making it a thing of possession, or otherwise of desire, and want for its own sake.

Quality of life is who we are, and not what we are, I suppose, says it best for me.
RobbyRobot is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to RobbyRobot For This Useful Post:
Ajax (04-11-2013), BackToSquareOne (03-27-2013)
Old 03-27-2013, 02:47 PM
  # 249 (permalink)  
Member
 
fini's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: canada
Posts: 7,138
i assume that most on a recovery forum want to talk about issues around quitting because that's where we're at when we first quit. and for a while after. it is the major number 1 thing for quite a while, that and either relapse or fear of/worry about/prevention of relapse.
also, it seems a lot of us think that quality of life will simply drastically and dramatically improve automatically by quitting, and so what's there to talk about?
in a certain sense, it's true: some things automatically get better when we quit.
but often, perceived quality can be worse after; ghosts and shadows not entombed anymore.

the way it is for me...i see it not as the quality of my life is better, but that I am better in my life. and those two go together, i realize.
in fact, though, i do struggle there, and am quite certain the quality could be expanded. if i were to do the necessary work.

ah, and another thought: it's "safer" to keep talking about drinking/quitting drinking issues; it's not too tough to say your life sucks when you're just getting sober or thinking about it; that's expected; but to "admit" that things aren't so great and that you're still messy after a couple of years is much harder.
talking about quitting drinking issueas is much much easier.
fini is offline  
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to fini For This Useful Post:
Ajax (04-11-2013), BackToSquareOne (03-27-2013), bemyself (03-27-2013), RobbyRobot (03-27-2013), SoberKnitter (03-27-2013)
Old 03-27-2013, 03:01 PM
  # 250 (permalink)  
Member
 
BackToSquareOne's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Bethlehem, PA.
Posts: 1,782
Interesting Robby, true that money doesn't buy happiness and peace of mind but it does seem easier to attain some semblance of those things if you're reasonably secure as opposed to dirt poor. It would be hard to say that the guy going into sobriety with no family support and zero assets and no education or job is going to have an easy road ahead. Quite the contrary, he will have a ton of roadblocks to overcome.

On the other hand the person with a lot of money and family support, great education and job outlook will have a much easier path to travel. So is money important, yea I think it is.
BackToSquareOne is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to BackToSquareOne For This Useful Post:
RobbyRobot (03-27-2013)
Old 03-27-2013, 03:59 PM
  # 251 (permalink)  
Member
 
BackToSquareOne's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Bethlehem, PA.
Posts: 1,782
Here's a question for everyone to ponder. What role does what a person has to go back to have in their likelyhood of recovery?
BackToSquareOne is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to BackToSquareOne For This Useful Post:
RobbyRobot (03-27-2013)
Old 03-27-2013, 04:03 PM
  # 252 (permalink)  
Member
 
SoberKnitter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Texas
Posts: 177
Originally Posted by BackToSquareOne View Post
Here's a question for everyone to ponder. What role does what a person has to go back to have in their likelyhood of recovery?
Well, statistically, people who are employed and married are much more likely to recover.

... But you are not a statistic. My life is not ideal at all, but I know that I'll never drink again.
SoberKnitter is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to SoberKnitter For This Useful Post:
BackToSquareOne (03-27-2013), Lenina (03-28-2013)
Old 03-27-2013, 04:09 PM
  # 253 (permalink)  
Adventures In SpaceTime
Thread Starter
 
RobbyRobot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,827
Yeah, money is important, but not essentially important to determine quality of life issues. Like I said, I've been on both sides of the wealth / poverty equation. Money itself is useless for attaining a quality of life.

This is not to be confused with money easing hardships that otherwise must be endured. I am speaking from experience though, so its not just some thing I'm projecting out there. Money can make life easier. It can also make it harder, however, is also true.

Quality of life is more about the person themselves, and not about the status of their wealth, their jobs, their education, their political correct associations, etc.

I didn't win a lottery either, btw. For several years now earn my money on the stock exchange. It seems I have a kind of easy success with my stock choices. Before I got into stocks, I worked for myself, and had a 5 figure income along with a disability pension in an up and mostly down business with my ex-wife. And ton's of debt too, using one credit card to pay another. Not cool. Before that I worked in the addictions field and before that I was a drunken sob. I grew up in the 60's and 70's dirt poor. I have no graduate diploma. Not even high school. I'm still successful nonetheless. Despite my health issues. Despite my mental health issues too. Despite my first day sober I had nothing but me, myself, and I. And a dream. And some promises to myself. I started at the bottom. It wasn't pretty.

When I remarried, my wife also had considerable wealth from her divorce settlement. Does any of this equate to quality of life? No, it doesn't. Money can actually destroy more then it makes right if not embraced properly. I know enough millionaires to know first-hand they don't have quality of life simply because they have wealth. Money is simply not what creates quality of life. People create quality of life for themselves. Or they don't. Its all about personal choices. It's not about external environments.

Quality of life is who I am, and how I behave, how I am responsible and authentic to my inner core beliefs, how I am still myself in good times and in bad times. I've learned more about how to keep being a non-drinker sober spiritual person by doing my best to be me then I've ever learned from any technique to help me quit alcohol and drugs.

Like I said, I'm amazed at just how much people say they just want to quit and get on with their lives, yet they really don't want to talk about their lives, they would much rather talk about quitting, like as if their lives were secondary.

Quitting was for me a means to an end, and not a goal in itself. I never would have stayed quit if I couldn't be the real me after quitting. Since I never went back to drinking, and I had a hard life for many years after quitting, I believe I'm not speaking with idealistic projections. Do I think people return to drinking because they didn't figure out a step or a technique or something external?? No, I don't. I believe people return to drinking, even if only for a day, because they did not find themselves. They were looking for something else thinking that would suffice, it didn't, and so back to where they last left themselves: drunk and drinking.

Again, I don't expect a lot of "thanks for this useful post"...

Still though, quality of life is the best ride out of addiction, hands down. Techniques are excellent tools, but they fall short on creating subjective quality of life, for this recovered alcoholic drug addict, anyways.

RobbyRobot is offline  
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to RobbyRobot For This Useful Post:
Ajax (04-11-2013), BackToSquareOne (03-27-2013), Lenina (03-28-2013)
Old 03-27-2013, 04:12 PM
  # 254 (permalink)  
Adventures In SpaceTime
Thread Starter
 
RobbyRobot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,827
Originally Posted by BackToSquareOne View Post
Here's a question for everyone to ponder. What role does what a person has to go back to have in their likelyhood of recovery?
I'm sorry. Could you restate your meaning please? I'm not getting the question? Thanks.
RobbyRobot is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to RobbyRobot For This Useful Post:
BackToSquareOne (03-27-2013)
Old 03-27-2013, 04:37 PM
  # 255 (permalink)  
Member
 
BackToSquareOne's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Bethlehem, PA.
Posts: 1,782
Originally Posted by RobbyRobot View Post
I'm sorry. Could you restate your meaning please? I'm not getting the question? Thanks.
This is something I often thought about. When I was in rehab way back in 1991 there were a couple of people there who claimed that they really had nothing to go back to. No caring family, no money, job, etc. I on the other hand could just pick up where I left off, no big problem. I had a family, job, skills and enough money to be at least comfortable.

I always wondered what it would be like to be in the position where you truly had nothing at all to go back to when you left rehab.
BackToSquareOne is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to BackToSquareOne For This Useful Post:
RobbyRobot (03-27-2013)
Old 03-27-2013, 05:13 PM
  # 256 (permalink)  
Adventures In SpaceTime
Thread Starter
 
RobbyRobot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,827
Thumbs up

Originally Posted by BackToSquareOne View Post
I always wondered what it would be like to be in the position where you truly had nothing at all to go back to when you left rehab.
Yeah, that describes me to a T.

I graduated at 3 months. Completed my rehab stay. Completed my 12 Steps. I really had plans to go on to college in the winter semester. I even had it already set up that all my costs would be paid, my housing paid, all paid kind of deal. Apparently, I really rocked all their psych profile and aptitude tests and charts as an ideal candidate. I had my free ticket punched on the gravy-train again, same as always. I was always being told I could be whatever, if I would only care enough to try. Oh yeah? Hey, can I be an astronaut? Um, no, you have a physical disability. Sorry. Hmmm. Okay, okay. I know... I can have any color I want, as long as its black, right? Yeah. I thought so. You know what... later.

So what did I do instead? More success in the world was going to get me drunk again. I could really sense that. It was only going to be a matter of time. I needed to change that up, and start fresh in a life built for me, by me, and as me, as I am in real time. Re-invent myself.

I did tons and tons of service work helping others get something going for themselves in quitting alcohol and drugs. I purposely chose more poverty to learn about myself while helping others. I had not really helped anybody as a selfish street kid, and certainly not as a drunken teenager going on 24. Quitting at 24 gave me an new opportunity to give back in a way I couldn't have done any other way, and still be discovering me all the while. I chose my path with a purpose in my mind and heart to have a quality life without external conditions whatsoever. Its worked out really well, if I do say so myself.

Eventually, it too turned into an early qualified success. And then it wasn't. And by that time of again back to hardships, I was well known to myself through thick and thin, good and bad times, health and sickness, and life was for me like that old baseball glove that always fit so well, and caught more balls then it ever dropped. I adapted and innovated and moved on with it going forward.

Out of nothing I carved a life that still stands on the foundations laid in my first two years of recovery. Each recovered year brings me more of what I already have: a good quality life. I stay sober to enjoy what I have. I'm not sober simply because drunk is not what I want anymore. I'm sober because it would be more difficult to not be sober now these many years of being sober. Sober is as sober does, for me, anyways.

Thanks for the clarification, BTSO. As always, you're a great guy to have a real discussion with. Rock on, bro!
RobbyRobot is offline  
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to RobbyRobot For This Useful Post:
Ajax (04-11-2013), BackToSquareOne (03-27-2013), bemyself (03-27-2013)
Old 03-27-2013, 05:15 PM
  # 257 (permalink)  
Member
 
bemyself's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Melbourne, Victoria Australia
Posts: 1,202
I'm going to take a deep breath here and just answer your excellent question BTSO, SOLELY from my own lived experience.

A disclaimer first: I have gone back (again) to drinking, these past few days. So, I hope this won't entirely skew readers' understanding / acceptance of what is simply a description. I also 'get' what Robby is talking about re the whole 'quality of life' dilemma - which is not now a dilemma for him, but is very much for some of us :-)

The main parts of my life, if you look at them from the outside, are exactly as they were before I went to my first full month rehab, back in early 2012. By this, I mean, that although I moved house - a big deal, given how much stuff I have, including a large library - all the way from the country to the city, my personal life is the same.

I still live alone, with just a dog. I still can't work, or even think about working, even if I were to try restarting my tiny home business; I'm on a disability pension due to several chronic medical conditions. I have some other money, but - whilst I'm grateful for it - it's a dwindling pool, and will certainly not last very long.

So, whilst I'm not 'poor' completely NOW, I will be (again) in a few years' time, right about the time I'm really ageing, getting into my 60s. Not a nice prospect.

On the family n friends score: I have virtually no-one now. I am not exaggerating, just stating the truth. People ('they', whoever they are) routinely say to those of us living in genuine isolation, 'oh, just go volunteer / do service work / join a group / etc etc'.

For me, though, I've realised with a degree of certainty - and a sinking feeling too - that I simply AM NOT a joiner of things. I never have been, regardless of my status as a drinker or non-drinker. I won't go into my internal thoughts about my relationships with other human beings, except to say that there's a lot within me which simply doesn't 'mesh' with others.

Try as I might, and after YEARS of practising all manner of communication skills, personal / social development stuff, compassion, non-judging, etc etc etc.... something deep within me has shut off. It sounds harsh, but it's all I can think of as an image of how it is currently...and has been, I see, for many years now.

Does this kind of stuff as above, affect my quality of life? Too right it does! Absolutely! Yet, all these things, described above, are that way, whether I'm sober or not. I know many will protest: but you don't have to feel this way! It's at that very point where I say: 'well, yes I do. For this is my reality, externally and internally, now.'

Hence, quite often, my 'best' quality of life these days can be measured and experienced by me as mere moments: when I'm at the park or bayside beach with my dog, and I open myself up to the vistas around me; when I manage to actually clear the dishwasher / vacuum the house / wash the car / clear some paperwork / do the washing / ring back someone who left me a message....; when I stop wrangling with Life in Existential Angst (I do a good EA) and just lie down for meditation / relaxation; when I face the truth of being here, right now, with my life as it is.

And..........moments / an hour later: I'm a mess again! It's almost laughable, in the way that Zen masters sometimes just laugh when earnest students ask for enlightenment.
bemyself is offline  
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to bemyself For This Useful Post:
Ajax (04-11-2013), BackToSquareOne (03-27-2013), RobbyRobot (03-27-2013)
Old 03-27-2013, 05:20 PM
  # 258 (permalink)  
Member
 
bemyself's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Melbourne, Victoria Australia
Posts: 1,202
Whoops, sorry Robby - you and I must have been posting at the exact same moments!

BTW, I've often thought / wondered: someone like your good self (and others I've met in AA / on SR and elsewhere) really did dodge quite a few bullets by getting sober at 24. So young! I venture forth - and not as a rationalisation, but just observation - that it sure as hell feels a damn sight harder when doing it in your late 50s.
bemyself is offline  
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to bemyself For This Useful Post:
Ajax (04-11-2013), BackToSquareOne (03-27-2013), RobbyRobot (03-27-2013)
Old 03-27-2013, 05:26 PM
  # 259 (permalink)  
Adventures In SpaceTime
Thread Starter
 
RobbyRobot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,827
Wow. Thanks so much for all that, Victoria. That is talking about a life that is also wanting to be sober. You have just written into reality the foot path for you to walk on, and as you do, sobriety will follow like a well heeled pet. Sounds ridiculous? Perhaps. It being the real you though, unvarnished, brings freedom into the recovery challenge/scene in ways that don't exist otherwise. Does the truth set us free?

Yeah, it does if your asking me, anyways.

Poverty can be endured. However, I wouldn't be so quick to close the door on opportunities just yet, even at whatever age you may be.

RobbyRobot is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to RobbyRobot For This Useful Post:
Ajax (04-11-2013), bemyself (03-27-2013)
Old 03-27-2013, 05:33 PM
  # 260 (permalink)  
Member
 
bemyself's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Melbourne, Victoria Australia
Posts: 1,202
Thanks Robby - yeh, the truth about ourselves is at once painful and can set us free.

But - I don't mean to be bossy :-) - are you able / willing to reflect on (even if only by imagination, which I know you're keen on) what your recovery story might look like / sound like IF you were just starting out at your mid-late 50s?

It probably sounds counter intuitive to even think about it, but as you like mental challenges, give it a shot? :-)
bemyself is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to bemyself For This Useful Post:
Ajax (04-11-2013), RobbyRobot (03-27-2013)

Currently Active Users Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off




All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:23 AM.