Blogs


Notices

Commitment issues

Old 01-08-2013, 07:34 AM
  # 21 (permalink)  
Member
 
fini's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: canada
Posts: 7,142
GT,
to put it a bit differently: the phrase you highlighted in red "no matter how determined, decided and committed, i drank again." is exactly what propelled me into sobriety.
fini is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to fini For This Useful Post:
RobbyRobot (01-08-2013)
Old 01-08-2013, 09:23 AM
  # 22 (permalink)  
Not The Way way, Just the way
 
GerandTwine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: US
Posts: 1,414
Blog Entries: 13
Originally Posted by Received View Post
For me, the word commitment means to be obligated. Commitments, imo, can be broken. For instance, I committed to helping at a baby shower but I fell ill.

To me, The Big Plan means no matter what happens I will never drink again and I will never change my mind. No exceptions. No wiggle room for "unseen events". NEVER.

I'm new at this so
In my book, deciding to never again do something easily qualifies as a type of commitment by any logical understanding of commitment. But this is just about the meaning of terms.

Here's something a little more interesting.

It takes only one breath to say "I will never drink again". It also takes just one breath to say "I will never drink again and I will never change my mind."

If it took two breaths to say the latter compound sentence, I think more people would more easily understand what I believe - that the Addictive Voice is secretly grinning at the second half. "Hah, so, never is not good enough all by itself, yep, you have to say it twice and qualify it with redundancy, HAH!!"

You see, I believe the second half is a CONDITION on the first half. The first half is perfectly capable of standing alone in its absolute clear meaning. So, the Shakespearean Beast is chuckling "Methinks thou dost protesteth too much."

Nevertheless, I do believe there is a purpose for the long version of the BP. It is useful in early practice before someone actually makes it. It can more clearly draw out the feelings and thoughts of a freshly trapped Beast, because IT has heard the first short version before and will try to belittle it and claim that you are incapable of not swallowing alcohol all by yourself.

In my case, years after quitting, I had dreams that put my honesty to myself in question. IT was trying to to confuse me about when I had been lying to others about quitting and my BP to myself. It took some conscious effort to recall that "Yes, of course I have not drunk alcohol since making it!" and that gnawing anxiety quickly dissipated. But it did come back for a while. It was using my guilt over past indiscretions to try to get me to believe I was not capable of a Big Plan. Those were the days of IT's death throes.

So, in AVRT, the Big Plan has two uses. You can practice it - knowing you are just practicing it - and you can make it.

Practicing the BP with different add on phrases is very useful in exposing the AV. But once the BP has been made, (and it can only be made once) the internal struggle is over and it's all downhill recognition.
GerandTwine is offline  
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to GerandTwine For This Useful Post:
bemyself (05-16-2013), HitRockBottom70 (01-08-2013), Received (01-08-2013), RobbyRobot (01-08-2013)
Old 01-08-2013, 09:29 AM
  # 23 (permalink)  
Adventures In SpaceTime
 
RobbyRobot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,827
Thumbs up

Originally Posted by fini View Post
I simply accept the loss of that old pleasure from knowing the truth. I drank for the assault of pleasure,
GT,
we were different drinkers. i'm a drunk. pleasure had had nothing to do with it for years and years by the time i quit.
as i said, the AVRT concept was of use to me at the beginning, as a tool to accomplish a bit of "distance" from the gotta-drink-urge. because, in fact, after i understood i was a drunk, i didn't want to or have to drink ever again. not so far, anyway.
Yeah. I too still don't want to die as a drunk drunkard. I hear that clearly being said about you. Nicely said, fini. Right from day one, I just didn't want to be drunk ever again once I finally came to understand I was gonna die drunk if I didn't quit, and quit forever, no less. Looking certain death in the face is no small experience.


Originally Posted by fini

I hear your Addictive Voice taking the upper hand here with your misunderstanding of RobbyRobot's meaning of the Big Plan by thinking it is not a commitment. Of course you have the ability to make a Big Plan and stick to it.

see, the misunderstanding, (or possibly unwillingness to accept my experience as valid as yours?) is in here: as i said, i made many commitments, sincere decisions and commitments to not drink again. and i could not stick to them. this, in fact was the eye-opener. it was entirely different from other commitments i can make and have made (no use telling me that's my "AV" talking; it's simply how it actually WAS for me). not denying my own experience , and actually seeing how it really was/is, is crucial for my sobriety, and seeing that my own commitments and decisions re drinking didn't amount to being able to stay sober ...and i see that all over the place, of course.

most everyone has made commitments to quit and failed that way. i used to think that this was a weakness in me and others, that it could be "fixed", that there was something wrong with me and my will, but there isn't. alcoholism is just a different beast.

this is why i appreciated Rob's explanation: that the Big Plan is the tool that results in a recognition of anything whispering or shouting against it can be firmly and immediately relegated to the AV.

it helped me understand how someone can use this method. helped me understand how it is very different from a commitment.

entirely possible i misunderstood what he means or what you're saying.
You got me right, fini. No misunderstanding that I can see. Awesome.

A powerful post, fini. Thanks.
RobbyRobot is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to RobbyRobot For This Useful Post:
applecake (01-11-2013)
Old 01-08-2013, 09:35 AM
  # 24 (permalink)  
Not The Way way, Just the way
 
GerandTwine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: US
Posts: 1,414
Blog Entries: 13
Originally Posted by fini View Post
GT,
to put it a bit differently: the phrase you highlighted in red "no matter how determined, decided and committed, i drank again." is exactly what propelled me into sobriety.
I will leave it to each reader to practice the art of AVRT on fini's interesting statement. Be aware of the importance of using the term 'sobriety' instead of 'abstinence'.
GerandTwine is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to GerandTwine For This Useful Post:
freshstart57 (01-08-2013)
Old 01-08-2013, 09:51 AM
  # 25 (permalink)  
Not The Way way, Just the way
 
GerandTwine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: US
Posts: 1,414
Blog Entries: 13
Originally Posted by RobbyRobot View Post

Originally Posted by fini
this is why i appreciated Rob's explanation: that the Big Plan is the tool that results in a recognition of anything whispering or shouting against it can be firmly and immediately relegated to the AV.

it helped me understand how someone can use this method. helped me understand how it is very different from a commitment.

entirely possible i misunderstood what he means or what you're saying.

You got me right, fini. No misunderstanding that I can see. Awesome.

A powerful post, fini. Thanks.
So, in AVRT, the Big Plan has two uses. You can practice it knowing you are just practicing it - and you can make it.

Practicing the BP with different add on phrases is very useful in exposing the AV. But once the BP has been made, (and it can only be made once) the internal struggle is over and it's all downhill recognition.
GerandTwine is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to GerandTwine For This Useful Post:
soberlicious (01-08-2013)
Old 01-08-2013, 10:51 AM
  # 26 (permalink)  
Member
Thread Starter
 
Newatthis34's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Ireland
Posts: 301
Is a Big Plan different to previous intentions to quit because it is a moment of realisation when the real you finally and permanently disassociates from the AV and makes a decision to quit. It is different because it is prepared for future bombarding from the Beast begging for alcohol, and counteracts this by incorporating a 'never again' element into the wording? Doesn't seem so different to me. I mean is this process of making a BP predicated upon not being logically inconsistent? Otherwise why is it stipulated that it can only be made once?? To me that implies that once something is known (in this case a full and complete knowledge and acceptance that I want to stop drinking) it cannot be unknown. You can ignore it of course, and continue to drink, relapse periodically etc, but that would merely put you in a position of willfully doing the wrong thing, a type of bad faith.

This is what scares me, I know I am more than capable of understanding what the right thing to do is, yet doing the precise wrong thing - a morally inconsistent position. This is why I am wondering about the commitment question. I feel like if I commit to something, (in my use of that term in this context), I have surrendered some of my more destructive, hedonistic impulses in order to achieve something more worthwhile in the long run.
Newatthis34 is offline  
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Newatthis34 For This Useful Post:
bemyself (05-16-2013), freshstart57 (01-08-2013), GerandTwine (01-08-2013), RobbyRobot (01-08-2013)
Old 01-08-2013, 10:58 AM
  # 27 (permalink)  
Adventures In SpaceTime
 
RobbyRobot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,827
Originally Posted by GerandTwine View Post
In my book, deciding to never again do something easily qualifies as a type of commitment by any logical understanding of commitment. But this is just about the meaning of terms.
Sure enough, a common understanding of a BP can be defined as a committment to abstinence. For me, that usual understanding is not enough to float my boat, lol. As has been said, committments can be broken, can be compromised, can be ammended, can be unfulfilled.

My BP is simply a tool used to descriminate what is and what isn't Addictive Voice. My BP exists for that sole reason. Its like a light switch in a room of darkness, which when tripped, illuminates otherwise hidden AV.

In fact, for me, any other use of my BP other then an AVRT technique speaks more to me as subjective ego dynamics in play then not.


Here's something a little more interesting.

It takes only one breath to say "I will never drink again". It also takes just one breath to say "I will never drink again and I will never change my mind."

If it took two breaths to say the latter compound sentence, I think more people would more easily understand what I believe - that the Addictive Voice is secretly grinning at the second half. "Hah, so, never is not good enough all by itself, yep, you have to say it twice and qualify it with redundancy, HAH!!"

You see, I believe the second half is a CONDITION on the first half. The first half is perfectly capable of standing alone in its absolute clear meaning. So, the Shakespearean Beast is chuckling "Methinks thou dost protesteth too much."
Sorry, I can only appreciate here that you have not entirely separated from your AV. I say this because you have clearly given powers of reason onto your Beast and its AV.

In AVRT, we clearly do our best to have a distinct separation of our logical reasoning mind with our primitive animal unreasoning reactionary lower mind - our base instincts, our primal resources.

I am my reasoning self. My Beast is other. I am logical. My Beast is other. I am wicked smart. My Beast is pathetically stupid. I am able to take and create physical action. My Beast can't and is totally useless. I am Alpha. My Beast is not. I always win. My Beast always does not. Yeah, baby.

The Beast is an abnormality created out of the collective chaos of addiction ambivalence. The Beast is an maladaption of our survival drives and desires. The Beast is as far from being reasonable as fire is from water.

A Beast which is sophisticated in nature and in influence is a Beast which is not altogether, in practice, been put out to pasture and retired, so to speak. These Beasts are fed a little bit of meat, and thus become sparring partners more or less. All dressed up and no place to go, comes to mind.


Nevertheless, I do believe there is a purpose for the long version of the BP. It is useful in early practice before someone actually makes it. It can more clearly draw out the feelings and thoughts of a freshly trapped Beast, because IT has heard the first short version before and will try to belittle it and claim that you are incapable of not swallowing alcohol all by yourself.

In my case, years after quitting, I had dreams that put my honesty to myself in question. IT was trying to to confuse me about when I had been lying to others about quitting and my BP to myself. It took some conscious effort to recall that "Yes, of course I have not drunk alcohol since making it!" and that gnawing anxiety quickly dissipated. But it did come back for a while. It was using my guilt over past indiscretions to try to get me to believe I was not capable of a Big Plan. Those were the days of IT's death throes.

So, in AVRT, the Big Plan has two uses. You can practice it - knowing you are just practicing it - and you can make it.

Practicing the BP with different add on phrases is very useful in exposing the AV. But once the BP has been made, (and it can only be made once) the internal struggle is over and it's all downhill recognition.
Hmmm. I can of course create and re-create a BP has often as I want to or need to. There are no conditions or limits on any BP. Stating it can only be done once is itself a condition. BP's have no inherent or attached conditions...

Like any common tool or technique, a BP is what it is for function and design, and is not so peculiar that it needs to be put on a pedestal, under lights, and glorified as a get-it-right-or-go-home kinda experience.

A Big Plan cannot fail. Only wrongly perceived failures can be wrapped around an otherwise sound and true BP. A return to drinking is more likely being successful at drinking again rather then at failing to stay abstinence. This means the BP was superceded by an even bigger plan to succeed at drinking. Its really as simple as that. So yeah. Its not a one shot deal.

The internal struggle is over when the addiction ambivalence is no longer creating the struggle. I never struggled with my Beast itself, except in my imagination. My true real-time struggle was always with my addiction ambivlance -- ie simultaneously wanting to both drink and not drink. My Beast simply had its greatest effect on me while I so struggled. The Beast itself does not, and can not cause ambivalence, it merely takes advantage of it, while it can.

Once ambivalence is over and done, the Beast has suffered a great defeat, and its best days are over, yes, but yet the Beast remains a powerful monster what likes nothing more then to create doubt in ones self about recovery and being recovered.

This doubt can be enough to bring about a return to drinking, when the doubt is not appreciated as original AV. I'm always 100% positive about my recovered status, so my Beast is pretty well sucker-punched, hahaha.

AVRT makes no record of past failures or successes. AVRT always works no matter the history or future of any person practicing AVRT. AVRT is always about the now moment -- and for those in the know of the now, experiencing the now can easily paradoxically last a lifetime and beyond, no problemo.

AVRT is a very personalised experientially developed and learned practice of separation of ourselves from our Beasts/AV. Its more an art then a science, is my experienced opinion.

Thanks GT for the deepness of your replies. We don't always agree, but no matter. Its not about agreeing, its about the sharing of experiences, no less, which we all can enjoy here at SR!
RobbyRobot is offline  
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to RobbyRobot For This Useful Post:
applecake (01-11-2013), bemyself (05-16-2013), Newatthis34 (01-08-2013)
Old 01-08-2013, 11:06 AM
  # 28 (permalink)  
Member
Thread Starter
 
Newatthis34's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Ireland
Posts: 301
Thanks everyone, really enjoying this discussion.

RR - I envy your clarity of thought!
Newatthis34 is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to Newatthis34 For This Useful Post:
RobbyRobot (01-08-2013)
Old 01-08-2013, 11:15 AM
  # 29 (permalink)  
Not The Way way, Just the way
 
GerandTwine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: US
Posts: 1,414
Blog Entries: 13
Originally Posted by fini View Post
...this is why i appreciated Rob's explanation: that the Big Plan is the tool that results in a recognition of anything whispering or shouting against it can be firmly and immediately relegated to the AV. it helped me understand how someone can use this method. helped me understand how it is very different from a commitment.
fini, (and RobbyRobot, you'll remember this)

Last year I said I was going to try and explain how someone could succeed at never drinking again by using everything AVRT had to offer including thinking about the Big Plan, EXCEPT not actually making the Big Plan. Well, it seems, fini, that you may be on the way to doing just that. There's is no proof you will not succeed. I wish you the best.

As to my own experience, when I understood AVRT and contemplated what it was like to be so close to permanent abstinence without actually making the decision to BE permanently abstinent, I chose to make that high dive off the diving board and burst out of the past, forever. I made the Big Plan (for alcohol/drugs).

FYI, here's a link to when I made the Big Plan for sugary foods:
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...ml#post3434356

GT
GerandTwine is offline  
Old 01-08-2013, 11:33 AM
  # 30 (permalink)  
Adventures In SpaceTime
 
RobbyRobot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,827
Originally Posted by Newatthis34 View Post
...This is what scares me, I know I am more than capable of understanding what the right thing to do is, yet doing the precise wrong thing - a morally inconsistent position. This is why I am wondering about the commitment question. I feel like if I commit to something, (in my use of that term in this context), I have surrendered some of my more destructive, hedonistic impulses in order to achieve something more worthwhile in the long run.
Hedonistic impulses -- ie that pleasure and pleasure seeking is the only intrinsic good -- can be themselves moderated; they can not be otherwise reasoned away however, because pleasure surely can often enough supercede reason, hahaha.

Moderation requires conditions being accepted as terms of the moderaqtion process. Those same conditions, if they involve any suggestion of future drinking, are by AVRT definition, those conditions are pure AV.

Being AV, they cannot successfully be attached to any proper Big Plan to quit drinking. The can be of course illuminated by the Big Plan as being AV, and in this way those conditions can be met and recognised, then dissociated with, and in that way the conditions of the original committment to have something more worthwhile in the long run can be brought to a productive realization.

WOW.

Still though, the BP does not need condtions of committment to be successful in bringing AV out of the darkness. Nothing says though that comittments of a personal nature can't be made for the quality of life that will be experienced while being in abstinence AFTER the creation of a BP

So, I have many such committments for a better life, which have nothing to do per se with my former addictive lifestyle. I can make this committments as I will or wish, because they are conditional on my continuing abstinence, and not on my originally quitting alcohol while I still suffered and struggled with addiction ambivalance.

RobbyRobot is offline  
Old 01-08-2013, 11:41 AM
  # 31 (permalink)  
Adventures In SpaceTime
 
RobbyRobot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,827
Originally Posted by GerandTwine View Post
fini, (and RobbyRobot, you'll remember this)

Last year I said I was going to try and explain how someone could succeed at never drinking again by using everything AVRT had to offer including thinking about the Big Plan, EXCEPT not actually making the Big Plan. Well, it seems, fini, that you may be on the way to doing just that. There's is no proof you will not succeed. I wish you the best.

As to my own experience, when I understood AVRT and contemplated what it was like to be so close to permanent abstinence without actually making the decision to BE permanently abstinent, I chose to make that high dive off the diving board and burst out of the past, forever. I made the Big Plan (for alcohol/drugs).

FYI, here's a link to when I made the Big Plan for sugary foods:
http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...ml#post3434356

GT
Yes, I remember us all having some discussions about having or not having a BP in action would we still have authentic AVRT successes in action.

I also remember we experienced differently those discussed issues.
RobbyRobot is offline  
Old 01-08-2013, 11:51 AM
  # 32 (permalink)  
Not The Way way, Just the way
 
GerandTwine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: US
Posts: 1,414
Blog Entries: 13
Originally Posted by RobbyRobot View Post
Sorry, I can only appreciate here that you have not entirely separated from your AV. I say this because you have clearly given powers of reason onto your Beast and its AV.
Hi RR, no need to be sorry, you are simply incorrect.

The Addictive Voice is any idea, feeling, or behavior that supports drinking alcohol in any amount, ever.

p. 117 of RR:TNC "...the Addictive Voice is very creative in finding new reasons for drinking alcohol. One of the above [20 listed] reasons, or something close to it, was probably the one you wrote down as the reason you resumed drinking after not drinking for a while. But your AV is probably more creative than I [Jack Trimpey] am, and it may have found a reason I haven't thought of here."

The AV is by definition "single minded", but it has creative reasoning towards that single minded goal.

In the spirit of clarity,

GT
GerandTwine is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to GerandTwine For This Useful Post:
RobbyRobot (01-08-2013)
Old 01-08-2013, 12:01 PM
  # 33 (permalink)  
Adventures In SpaceTime
 
RobbyRobot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,827
Originally Posted by GerandTwine View Post
Hi RR, no need to be sorry, you are simply incorrect.

The Addictive Voice is any idea, feeling, or behavior that supports drinking alcohol in any amount, ever.

p. 117 of RR:TNC "...the Addictive Voice is very creative in finding new reasons for drinking alcohol. One of the above [20 listed] reasons, or something close to it, was probably the one you wrote down as the reason you resumed drinking after not drinking for a while. But your AV is probably more creative than I [Jack Trimpey] am, and it may have found a reason I haven't thought of here."

The AV is by definition "single minded", but it has creative reasoning towards that single minded goal.

In the spirit of clarity,

GT
I hear you.

Nonetheless. Creativity itself does not require reason. Much of creativity is sourced from imagination, no less.

LIke I said, reason is with me, and not my Beast. My Beast can be so-called creative and resonable because it actually uses my own thoughts against me. It itself cannot create words or sentences. It simply harvests from me, and feeds it back to me with the idea that drinking would be a good idea. Cut n' paste like in a scrapbook...

So, my Beast has no reasoning powers of its own. It simply uses me is what it does...

AV is to Beast as bark is to dog. Beast is the sick desire and AV is my separated [from me] thoughts entwined with that sick addictive desire.
RobbyRobot is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to RobbyRobot For This Useful Post:
bemyself (05-16-2013), Newatthis34 (01-08-2013)
Old 01-08-2013, 02:42 PM
  # 34 (permalink)  
Member
 
fini's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: canada
Posts: 7,142
GT,
i'm not using AVRT, i have no need for it. as i said, the separation of "me" and an AV was useful for a bit, but in fact i haven't had any real difficulties. knowing i am a drunk stopped the battle right there.
it's a different way from yours. when i made commitments for all those drinking years, commitments and decisions not to drink, i was engaged in arguments a lot, with myself, with what you might see as the AV/Beast, but which really was a lack of understanding or seeing the truth. when i saw that i'm a drunk, there was nothing left to argue with. the struggle for abstinence was over. one of the things i mean, when i say i'm an alcoholic, is that there is me and i'm an alcoholic, NOT: there is me and then there's this "voice" somewhere, an "IT/Beast". there is no me and it. there's just me.
but of course i'm glad your way works for you.

@RR: i've been reading here for a few months, and your posts keep intriguing me because of the way you combine such different-seeming approaches, methods and programs/non-programs. seems to work so well for you, and i've been wanting to grasp how you combine these different things. your explanation of your view of BP has given me a better understanding, much better. i'd never thought of it as a tool, something entirely independent of any program, something that can be used in combination with anything else. it makes much more sense to me now. i had always seen BP and AVRT as a method of quitting and staying quit instead of as a tool, and i just couldn't get how that would ultimately be any different from what i'd tried a hundred times.

@NewAtThis: originally, i just meant to say that initially the separating of me from "AV" was useful , and i used it in this way: it was clear to me i wouldn't drink, wouldn't and didn't want to, even if "the voice" said gottagottagottadrink!!; so no matter what "the voice" said, i simply assumed, each and every time, that something was going on with me other than that . mostly, i found, it was about not wanting to feel whatever i was feeling.
and not knowing what to do with it all.
but i couldn't use the Big Plan concept, because i understood that to mean a commitment just like all the other ones i had made, and so what would be the use of making another one? so glad RR showed me a different way of looking at that.
you sure opened a can of worms here with this thread!
fini is offline  
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to fini For This Useful Post:
bemyself (05-16-2013), Newatthis34 (01-10-2013), Obladi (01-08-2013), RobbyRobot (01-08-2013)
Old 01-08-2013, 07:43 PM
  # 35 (permalink)  
Self recovered Self discovered
 
freshstart57's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Toronto Canada
Posts: 5,147
My BP is simply a tool used to discriminate what is and what isn't Addictive Voice. My BP exists for that sole reason. Its like a light switch in a room of darkness, which when tripped, illuminates otherwise hidden AV.

In fact, for me, any other use of my BP other than an AVRT technique speaks more to me as subjective ego dynamics in play than not.
My experience agrees with this 100%. Well, actually, it agrees with the first half 100%.

My Big Plan exposes my urges to drink for what they are - my addiction attempting to assert my base instincts and desires to experience that mind numbing buzz. It turns a bright light on my parasitic desire for alcohol, and lets me recognize any thought about drinking now or in the future, or any doubt in my success, as AV.

For me, sobriety required a belief in myself, a fully realized knowledge that I could quit and stay quit. Without that confidence, my chances of success were slim. I understood that my Big Plan had to be a solemn, sincere and fully fleshed commitment to that confidence. A vow. A promise.

A Big Plan that says I am going to pretend to swear off drinking so that I can recognize thoughts that will lead me to drink, but not actually swear off the drink because I might fail by violating my commitment, is so much AV.

I chose to make drinking a moral issue for me some time ago (drinking --->impaired driving --->tragedy and death of someone's child) and that conflation, while not rigorously compelling, withers in front of my revulsion at that possibility and my sense of self. Ego is what allows me to refuse that eventuality. Ego is precisely the force I have identified as the one that supports my confidence in my ability to succeed. Ego is subjective by definition and realization, and its dynamism is my belief in myself.

I guess my understanding (which is mine) of AVRT is a simple one, it doesn't require nor does it admit these mental gymnastics. My BP lets me recognize the thoughts supported by my beast, and it does so simply because it really is an irrevocable choice. A commitment. I quit, and I mean it.
freshstart57 is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to freshstart57 For This Useful Post:
bemyself (05-16-2013), RobbyRobot (01-08-2013)
Old 01-08-2013, 09:12 PM
  # 36 (permalink)  
Adventures In SpaceTime
 
RobbyRobot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,827
Originally Posted by freshstart57 View Post

I chose to make drinking a moral issue for me some time ago (drinking --->impaired driving --->tragedy and death of someone's child) and that conflation, while not rigorously compelling, withers in front of my revulsion at that possibility and my sense of self. Ego is what allows me to refuse that eventuality. Ego is precisely the force I have identified as the one that supports my confidence in my ability to succeed. Ego is subjective by definition and realization, and its dynamism is my belief in myself.

I guess my understanding (which is mine) of AVRT is a simple one, it doesn't require nor does it admit these mental gymnastics. My BP lets me recognize the thoughts supported by my beast, and it does so simply because it really is an irrevocable choice. A commitment. I quit, and I mean it.
Well said, freshstart.

Ego can of course be a positive resource and endless strength of determined character has been my experience. As well, ego can also be a negative face plant right into selfishness and self-centeredness too, and this has also been my experience. Ego is essential and required for healthy quality of life. Being egotistical is of course not a healthy expression of a well rounded ego.

I don't think ego can be used as a tool in itself. Ego is much too intimate for such practical use, same as using something like honor as a means to an end would be itself dishonorable.

Ego is as ego does, and a controlled managed ego is not as healthy as a happy and free ego, is my experience.

Following my Big Plan, after having some success with living a sans-alcohol lifestyle, I did freely commit to creating a quality of life which satisfied me ongoing and moving forward. Many ways to ensure quality living are there for the taking. Life is abundant with ideal choices.

First I unconditionally quit. Then I sought a better qualified committed life which includes being sober and living in abstinence, but is not limited nor defined by just being sober. There is more under the sun then freedom from alcohol has been my wonderful realization and joy!
RobbyRobot is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to RobbyRobot For This Useful Post:
bemyself (05-16-2013)
Old 01-08-2013, 09:32 PM
  # 37 (permalink)  
Adventures In SpaceTime
 
RobbyRobot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,827
Originally Posted by fini View Post
@RR: i've been reading here for a few months, and your posts keep intriguing me because of the way you combine such different-seeming approaches, methods and programs/non-programs. seems to work so well for you, and i've been wanting to grasp how you combine these different things. your explanation of your view of BP has given me a better understanding, much better. i'd never thought of it as a tool, something entirely independent of any program, something that can be used in combination with anything else. it makes much more sense to me now. i had always seen BP and AVRT as a method of quitting and staying quit instead of as a tool, and i just couldn't get how that would ultimately be any different from what i'd tried a hundred times.
Awesome to hear that, fini.

Thank you. I remember you now from your supportive posts on my 'Alcoholic Interrupted II' thread back in August 2011. Sweeet!

RobbyRobot is offline  
Old 01-08-2013, 09:36 PM
  # 38 (permalink)  
Adventures In SpaceTime
 
RobbyRobot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,827
Originally Posted by Newatthis34 View Post
Thanks everyone, really enjoying this discussion.

RR - I envy your clarity of thought!
Thanks so much for being so open and accommodating with your thread, Newatthis. Awesome.

RobbyRobot is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to RobbyRobot For This Useful Post:
applecake (01-11-2013), Newatthis34 (01-10-2013)
Old 01-09-2013, 06:47 AM
  # 39 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: "I'm not lost for I know where I am. But however, where I am may be lost ..."
Posts: 5,272
Well, my friends...I don't know about all that...
Dude, I just don't drink. Ever.
soberlicious is offline  
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to soberlicious For This Useful Post:
Newatthis34 (01-10-2013), Obladi (01-09-2013), Received (01-09-2013), RobbyRobot (01-09-2013), ru12 (01-14-2013)
Old 01-09-2013, 10:43 AM
  # 40 (permalink)  
Not The Way way, Just the way
 
GerandTwine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: US
Posts: 1,414
Blog Entries: 13
Originally Posted by RobbyRobot View Post
I hear you.

Nonetheless. Creativity itself does not require reason. Much of creativity is sourced from imagination, no less.

LIke I said, reason is with me, and not my Beast. My Beast can be so-called creative and resonable because it actually uses my own thoughts against me. It itself cannot create words or sentences. It simply harvests from me, and feeds it back to me with the idea that drinking would be a good idea. Cut n' paste like in a scrapbook...

So, my Beast has no reasoning powers of its own. It simply uses me is what it does...

AV is to Beast as bark is to dog. Beast is the sick desire and AV is my separated [from me] thoughts entwined with that sick addictive desire.
The Beast and its AV is not creative the way a toddler is with finger paints. It is creative with reasoning, single minded reasoning. Not only that, it knows your belief system and will use that information in its creative reasoning to try to get you to drink. It is a formidable thinking adversary able to create feelings without words, and thoughts with words. As to behavior? It can't make you behave at all, except maybe to remain motionless for tiny moment as you are recognizing it.
GerandTwine is offline  

Currently Active Users Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off




All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:28 AM.