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Old 02-27-2013, 07:43 AM
  # 101 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by soberlicious View Post
I meant that understanding all the underlying issues is not necessary to stopping and can in fact be used as an excuse to continue drinking. I understood that I must stop too. That's not what I was saying.

Maybe we read different books?

How are you feeling today btw? Hope all is well. xo
Well, anything can be used as an excuse, I suppose, as you know, so then your point is lost on me.

Different books? No. Certainly we are different persons, soberlicious. I think we can both to the math on what that means...

I'm feeling grand, lol.

And you?

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Old 02-27-2013, 07:52 AM
  # 102 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by RobbyRobot View Post
There is nothing so special about the Beast that requires it to be the topic of constant conversation when practicing AVRT.
Of course not. It simply struck me as odd that in 5 paragraphs (in an AVRT thread) of wondering what was causing a compulsion to drink, the Beast was never mentioned. Similarly, it strikes me as odd that it doesn't strike you as odd.

Originally Posted by RobbyRobot View Post
The so-called 'trouble-maker's' desire is completely healthy and normal, although it has an maladaptive appetite for alcohol.
I have found that maladaptive appetite for alcohol to have directly contributed to making trouble for me in the past. From my readings here, that also seems to be a normal experience.
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Old 02-27-2013, 08:03 AM
  # 103 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Nonsensical View Post
Of course not. It simply struck me as odd that in 5 paragraphs (in an AVRT thread) of wondering what was causing a compulsion to drink, the Beast was never mentioned. Similarly, it strikes me as odd that it doesn't strike you as odd.

I have found that maladaptive appetite for alcohol to have directly contributed to making trouble for me in the past. From my readings here, that also seems to be a normal experience.

Strike me as odd? Not my first rodeo, lol.

Newatthis has already expressed a working understanding of the AVRT Beast in other posts. As well, NAT was speaking for her/him self as he/she saw fit, which I have no problem with when folks do so, so the share looks all good to me.

Strictly speaking, it was not the appetite itself which caused you trouble, it was drinking alcohol to satisfy that appetite is what I think is more true, yeah?
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Old 02-27-2013, 08:17 AM
  # 104 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by RobbyRobot
Well, anything can be used as an excuse, I suppose, as you know, so then your point is lost on me.
My point wasn't really intended for you, my friend. You don't need clarification. You are a non-drinker. I was making the point for Newatthis, since it appeared to me that the round and round trying to get to root causes was, in fact, contributing to the cycle of addiction for them.

Originally Posted by RobbyRobot
AV is a normal experience.
Absolutely. It is the seperating and identifying that is usually tricky at first for alot of people though.

As well, NAT was speaking for themselves as they saw fit,
NAT is on a recovery forum, so I took that to mean they would welcome all kinds of input. What NAT does with the responses would be up to NAT. That is the magic of SR.

I think we can both to the math on what that means...
Ahhh, you overestimate me. I only teach 2nd grade ya know Glad you are well. xo
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Old 02-27-2013, 08:19 AM
  # 105 (permalink)  
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The share is beautiful. NAT is searching for answers. Those answers seemed very clear to me in the book Rational Recovery. Perhaps it's worth a re-read.

As for the rest, I chose the words "directly contributed" very carefully. Not my first word game rodeo, Cowboy Robby.
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Old 02-27-2013, 08:21 AM
  # 106 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Nonsensical View Post
The share is beautiful. NAT is searching for answers. Those answers seemed very clear to me in the book Rational Recovery. Perhaps it's worth a re-read.

As for the rest, I chose the words "directly contributed" very carefully. Not my first word game rodeo, Cowby Robby.
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Old 02-27-2013, 08:22 AM
  # 107 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by soberlicious View Post
My point wasn't really intended for you, my friend. You don't need clarification. You are a non-drinker. I was making the point for Newatthis, since it appeared to me that the round and round trying to get to root causes was, in fact, contributing to the cycle of addiction for them.

Absolutely. It is the seperating and identifying that is usually tricky at first for alot of people though.

NAT is on a recovery forum, so I took that to mean they would welcome all kinds of input. What NAT does with the responses would be up to NAT. That is the magic of SR.

Ahhh, you overestimate me. I only teach 2nd grade ya know Glad you are well. xo

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Old 02-27-2013, 09:23 AM
  # 108 (permalink)  
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Nonsensical - you are right about the absence of mention of the Beast in my posts, I guess that although I have read RR (several times to be accurate) aspects of the method (if that's the right word) still create problems in my understanding. Perhaps I lack imagination or whatever but the terminology leaves me more confused the more I think about it. Having said that, there are huge pluses with the approach which really appeal to me. But I've decided that stuff like the Big Plan, and Beast don't cut it for me, (although of course I know that they are metaphors for urges and intentions and not literal) these words cannot take root in my mind in any meaningful way. We are all different, I can see how others may use these terms quite happily but something doesn't sit right with me when I use them. Maybe it's cynicism on my behalf but I feel like I'm pretending when I say to myself 'YOU don't want a drink, your BEAST does'. I appreciate it works for others but so far it hasn't for me. I realise it's a separation technique, but I feel it takes things in isolation too much. I'm looking for a more holistic approach, or maybe just my own terminology that speaks to me!!

Soberlicious - you are right, I am looking for all kinds of input, keep them coming! I value everyone's contribution.

Robby - you said something earlier about finding the higher path to recovery, and if I understand you right that is what I am trying to do. Again this could be different for everyone. For me it's about trying to find out who I am without booze, find some peace within, challenge myself to do all the things I think I may be capable of but haven't been arsed to do as I've been so fixated on alcohol, and learn to accept that I can't control everything. I cannot control the fact that, at the moment, I don't understand how I've gotten to this point, but that I can control what I do next. Which is remain sober.

If my posts are contradictory then I guess it showcases how my understandings and insights are evolving. I'm being as honest as I can, so that's where I'm at right now. The mantra is 'I don't drink'! Feeling good.
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Old 02-27-2013, 09:56 AM
  # 109 (permalink)  
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I appreciate you addressing my interest in your thoughts on the Beast.

Originally Posted by Newatthis34 View Post
But I've decided that stuff like the Big Plan, and Beast don't cut it for me, (although of course I know that they are metaphors for urges and intentions and not literal) ....I feel like I'm pretending when I say to myself 'YOU don't want a drink, your BEAST does'.
I hear you. I believe I had a similar reaction to the notion that I had a disease, and it was to be treated by identifying my character flaws and spiritual defects and asking my HP to remove them. It did not make sense to me. It makes perfect sense to others, and that's great for them. People are beating their addictions using that methodology - it just never 'took' with me.

The concept that my compulsion to drink originates in an entirely different part of my brain than the part where my personality resides made perfect sense to me as soon as I read about it the first time. A desire emanating from the primitive portion of my brain that cannot be turned off or controlled by the otherwise in-control advanced portion. It can't be contolled, but that animal impulse can be ignored.

I hope you come across something soon that makes perfect sense to you.
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Old 02-27-2013, 10:05 AM
  # 110 (permalink)  
 
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Ditto what Non said for me....
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Old 02-27-2013, 11:38 AM
  # 111 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Newatthis34 View Post
... I've decided that stuff like the Big Plan, and Beast don't cut it for me, (although of course I know that they are metaphors for urges and intentions and not literal) these words cannot take root in my mind in any meaningful way. ...
I understand how the Big Plan - I will never drink again. - can be used
1- rhetorically, (I've done that many, many times.)
2- as a false pledge stated to others (I did that a number of times before I finally quit for good), and
3- as a personal pledge made to oneself and possibly shared with others. (I've done that once.)(It can't be done more than once.)

But I do not understand how the Big Plan can be construed as "not literal" and a "metaphor for intention".
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Old 02-27-2013, 11:58 AM
  # 112 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by GerandTwine View Post
I understand how the Big Plan - I will never drink again. - can be used
1- rhetorically, (I've done that many, many times.)
2- as a false pledge stated to others (I did that a number of times before I finally quit for good), and
3- as a personal pledge made to oneself and possibly shared with others. (I've done that once.)(It can't be done more than once.)

But I do not understand how the Big Plan can be construed as "not literal" and a "metaphor for intention".


Just caught up on the thread. I must agree with GT... to me the BP seems quite literal. As for why one drinks.... I drank because I liked being drunk. To take it further as to why do I like being drunk? I have my own beliefs on that but, they are unimportant to me now. I know I can't drink moderately and I accept that if I continue to drink I WILL DIE. So, the rational conclusion for me was to stop drinking. I fail to see the complexity in the "terminology" but NAT I hope you find something that makes sense to you in the way you are looking for.
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Old 02-27-2013, 12:32 PM
  # 113 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by jkb
I know I can't drink moderately and I accept that if I continue to drink I WILL DIE. So, the rational conclusion for me was to stop drinking
.Exactly right. Deciding not to drink anymore is pretty literal to me.

btw, NAT...the idea of separating from "the addicted part of you" or "being of two minds" about something is not exclusively an AVRT concept, nor is it a new concept. People in recovery fellowships often say "your addiction wants to kill you" or "your addiction wants you to drink". The strategy of separating from temptation or desire and assigning it as "not you" is also used in various religions ( the devil, or Mara). This strategy has been useful for many across cultures, religions, and across the ages. As others have said, I do hope you find what works for you and you find freedom. xo
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Old 02-27-2013, 02:30 PM
  # 114 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Newatthis34 View Post
Robby - you said something earlier about finding the higher path to recovery, and if I understand you right that is what I am trying to do.

Again this could be different for everyone. For me it's about trying to find out who I am without booze, find some peace within, challenge myself to do all the things I think I may be capable of but haven't been arsed to do as I've been so fixated on alcohol, and learn to accept that I can't control everything.

I cannot control the fact that, at the moment, I don't understand how I've gotten to this point, but that I can control what I do next. Which is remain sober.

If my posts are contradictory then I guess it showcases how my understandings and insights are evolving. I'm being as honest as I can, so that's where I'm at right now. The mantra is 'I don't drink'! Feeling good.

Being an individual of standing merit in one's own un-drunken heart and un-drunken mind is an awesomely satisfying and gratifying cornucopia of life sustaining experiences. There is no substitute for an un-chained life.

There will always be distractions no matter whatever plans or strategies may be carefully cultivated and practiced so as to secure an alcohol free lifestyle. AVRT provides a tool set which with practice can create an ideal simplistic understanding to further enable one to forever quit alcoholic drinking in all its many deceptive forms.

There is no requirement with AVRT to do any changing whatsoever except of course the act of drinking itself. Your act of quitting drinking Newatthis, and then seeking more answers for your questions whilst you live the sober life moves you beyond the simple requirements to readily enjoy the benefits of AVRT along with that same sober lifestyle, or sans-alcohol lifestyle of abstinence, either way, same deal.

I don't wear my successful practice of AVRT like a badge or trophy to be itself glorified or celebrated like I've somehow found the perfect modality of abstinence. I feel often enough some others in the secular forum snake-oil sell AVRT much the same way as other programs are sometimes snake-oiled sold in the other forums, and yet there is nothing for it, for life is what it is for any of us.

I use AVRT same as I would use any tool set to practice my art -- I use it as an individual. There are no such creatures as professional experts in AVRT. Certainly there are teachers and mentors, yes, but no professionals. We're all amateurs.

It can be difficult with so many opinions and experiences to sort things out, but nonetheless, the sorting is worth doing, and the opinions and other's experiences are worth seeking, and the results will speak for themselves.

FWIW, I believe in YOU, Newatthis. You may indeed initially seem wobbly and unsure in these present times, but you won't always be as such. You're indeed taking the higher road, and you'll meet many others like yourself who'll gladly walk a few timeless measures with you, no problemo.

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Old 02-27-2013, 08:41 PM
  # 115 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by RobbyRobot
I feel often enough some others in the secular forum snake-oil sell AVRT much the same way as other programs are sometimes snake-oiled sold in the other forums, and yet there is nothing for it, for life is what it is for any of us.
I have never seen anyone selling snake oil in any of these forums. What I have seen is many sharing what has worked for them, and even while individuals can have vastly different, even diametrically opposing paths, I still believe everyone speaks with the best of intentions...to connect with a fellow traveler who wishes to end their addiction.

Just because someone is caught in the cycle of addiction doesn't mean they are stupid. Different opinions and varied input are valuable. I believe the individuals who come here seeking information are certainly smart and capable enough to find what fits for them.

I know I am always introduced to a new idea every single time I read here at SR.
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Old 02-28-2013, 03:46 AM
  # 116 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by soberlicious View Post
I still believe everyone speaks with the best of intentions...to connect with a fellow traveler who wishes to end their addiction.
I'm of a different view. I think it's unsophisticated, disingenuous, and na´ve to generalize and think (everyone) addicts and alcoholics, or persons otherwise in deep pain and fear always speak with the best of intentions. It would be nice to think there are no under currents or back-channels, or cliques, or snake-oil sales, but that is simply not the case.

SR doesn't require people to check their humanity at the door. Its come as you are, just respect the rules is all that is asked of us. The world in here is moderated, and without that same moderation, this supportive, nourishing, friendly and loving SR world would not exist. This is such a wonderful place to be because of the expert understanding of the mods and admins.

They couldn't do it all on their own of course, and most times we all work together for the same cause of course. But not always. Sometimes people have agendas which conflict, and so things can get carnival and circus like for a time. The mods and admins sort it out and we support their honest work. Sometimes we even sort it out ourselves.

Do I think some individuals take advantage of members less able to articulate themselves for whatever reason?

Damn straight I do.
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Old 02-28-2013, 05:53 AM
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Originally Posted by RobbyRobot
Do I think some individuals take advantage of members less able to articulate themselves for whatever reason?

Damn straight I do.
Me too, Robby.
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Old 02-28-2013, 06:51 AM
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I don't know guys. I have a very hard time articulating my thoughts and have never felt, here in secular connections, as if someone was taking advantage of that fact.

There have been plenty of times others have actually helped me to untwist my thoughts or to look deeper into something I posted. I've always found this very helpful.

Now the bickering over what is and what isn't AVRT can sometimes be overwhelming so I end up skipping and scrolling. It's unfortunate feeling I have to do that because I'm sure there are some gems in those posts. However, the over-riding theme, and therefore sense of frustration, outweighs any benefit I might derive.

When I am reading a thread and agendas begin to rear their ugly heads I start to feel as if I need to chose sides and that helps no one. Ever.
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Old 02-28-2013, 07:01 AM
  # 119 (permalink)  
 
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Well, to be honest I do tend toward the naive side...I do think others usually have good intentions. It's part of my "program" if you will, to believe we are inherently good. Real life experience has shown me otherwise, but I do still try to hold fast to that belief anyway.

As far as "selling snake oil", I cannot imagine how one would possibly benefit from trying to pull the wool over another's eyes? Or why such an endeavor would even be desirable?
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Old 02-28-2013, 07:04 AM
  # 120 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Received View Post
I don't know guys. I have a very hard time articulating my thoughts and have never felt, here in secular connections, as if someone was taking advantage of that fact.
+1

I'll chalk it up to being relatively new here, but I haven't noted anyone taking advantage of someone else on these forums. What advantage is to be gained here on a sobriety forum?

As SoberLicious pointed out, there are certainly 'evangelicals'. People whose goal it is to convince others that their way is the best (or only) way. That's in the eye of the beholder, though. Almost certainly some people on this forum regard me as an AVRT evangelical. It's not unfair in some sense. I do try to spread the word. It's working for me, and I wish I had heard of it 15 years ago.

Is there an example of a 'snake-oiled' post you can point out? I have never seen a post on the SR forums where I thought the poster did not honestly believe in what they were writing. (Except for one SPAM post that I saw before the moderators removed it.)

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