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Old 01-09-2013, 11:48 AM
  # 41 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by RobbyRobot View Post
AV is to Beast as bark is to dog. Beast is the sick desire and AV is my separated [from me] thoughts entwined with that sick addictive desire.
In furthering the spirit of clarification:

There is nothing sick about the Beast and its Addictive Voice. Possessing the desire to drink alcohol against one's better judgement is a sign of a healthy brain with a misdirected appetite for survival/pleasure that can be self-corrected, often expeditiously with AVRT.
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Old 01-09-2013, 06:31 PM
  # 42 (permalink)  
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Hi GT,

I enjoy a good debate. And I enjoy personal challenges. I also enjoy standing up for myself, being myself, and having every courtesy for others all the while.

I've been straight up with you in this thread offering my understanding of how I experience and choose to practice AVRT. You've since started to quote pages from RR:TNC to help you get across to me, and any readers\contributors of this thread as well, for sake of clarity as you call it, that I'm wrong in my understanding, application, and use of AVRT.

No problemo.

AVRT is a personalized educational and enlightenment experiential in-the-now technique of applied awareness to simply recognise Addictive Voice, followed by disassociating from that same AV, followed by becoming indifferent to the just previously recognised AV, followed by getting on with being abstinence and never again drinking. These are my words.

I'm not going to care much what they may not mean to you, unless you can detect some hidden AV in my words. If you can, feel free to educate me. If not, then don't even bother to tell me it may not be the exact definition found in the RR:TNC.

My Beast is a dumb instinctual survival desire drive. It is a special case of desire, born from my addiction struggles while I was actively addicted. My Beast simply wants to eat alcohol. Nothing but alcohol. It wont settle for drugs, it wants it some alcohol, lol. My Beast, being a simple desire drive, is very dumb, and very primitive. Its also very powerful, like a hunger drive, like a primal survivor drive is powerful. My Beast cannot reason. Again, my Beast cannot reason. Okay?

I do all the reasoning in me. I'm the one using my cerebral cortex. Me. And just me, okay? I don't have some other thing, or personality inside me who is also using my cerebral cortex. Its just me.

My AV exists simply because it is defined and created by my own cerebral cortex disassociation with any thought, image, idea, and feeling which possibly or certainly may lead to future drinking. My AV exists because I choose to have it exist, as a result of my successful efforts with separating (disassociating) from my AV.

My AV then, is from me, the drinker, but not from me, the non-drinker. Can my AV reason, like I do with my cerebral cortex? No, it can't. Can it create like I can? No it can't.

For me, both my Beast and my AV are as a sickness, an illness, to me. My choice to see it this way.

What can it do?

It can use whatever was available to the me that was the drinker, but it can't do that in real time, because in real time, I am now a non-drinker. As a matter of fact, my AV can only use the me that was drinking back more then 31 years ago. That's it. Period. End of story.

In fact, even if I say out loud, right now that I want to drink a cold one, my AV still cannot make use of my cerebral cortex in real time because even as I say the words, I , the me that is me, the me that is in charge, the me that has full use in real time of my cerebral cortex, that me instantly recognises the words as just more AV, and so I then disassociate, and then become indifferent to that separation, and get on with being me.

Now GT, that is the core of how I apply my AVRT, and the values I hold dear and true to me. Unless you can find some hidden AV, there is not really a place for you to continue to comment about the veracity of my results to remain sober in my continuing abstinence, or how I represent my AVRT. Like everybody else, I get to choose for myself what works for me, lol. At the end of the day, I'm just another guy sharing his experiences, yeah?

I have a few quotes too:

Originally Posted by RR:TNC pg 148
"Like a child's connect-the-dot puzzle, the Addictive Voice functions only to connect words, ideas, images, and feelings together to form a pattern -- any pattern at all -- that results in the action of drinking or using. Some connect-the-dots puzzle's are extremely simple, consisting of only two dots, and the result is a straight line. But some dot puzzles are extremely complex, with hundreds of numbered dots, and the resulting pattern is a good looking picture."- Jack Trempey
Hmmm. Not entirely unlike my scrapbook metaphor, yeah?

Originally Posted by RR:TNC pg 150
It is extremely important for you to know that you have a great advantage over your Beast. It is a worthy opponent, a strong fighter, and it will not easily give up. But your task is relatively easy compared to that of the Beast. You have something it doesn't have. You have the intelligence to recognise the Beast in all of its forms -- the thoughts, images, moods, and emotions it uses to get you to drink. That's all. Just recognise those things, and the Beast will fall silent. What choice does it have? All that it is, including its voice and its feelings, it borrows from you.-- Jack Trempey
Hmmm. Not unlike what I was saying about my AV/Beast, yeah?

Okay, so I'm thinking I'm done with explaining myself for your satisfaction, GT. Glad to have helped you out to better understand me, hopefully.

Live and let live comes to mind.

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Old 01-10-2013, 04:23 AM
  # 43 (permalink)  
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Hi RR,

While you and I presently have quite different recovery program involvement, I think we both can be considered "old timers" with our combined abstinence of over 63 years.

Over the recent years, I have occasionally tested my Beast by making scotch-on-the-rocks; to hear the golden liquor pour out of the fancy bottle, listen to the ice crackle, then feel the cold glass in my hand and lift it up to my nose and deeply smell it. That's the closest I can get to resurrecting my Beast, yet still, I'm unable to recall the pleasurable sensation. Could I handle it if I tried drinking again? It's a meaningless question because I took the choice away from myself many years ago. So, I know my alcohol/drug Beast is less than an old withered up appendix, and even in those extreme tests, I can just barely hear it or feel it any more.

Well, I'm guessing there's a good chance you also cannot recall that long lost sensation of pleasure from being under the influence. I believe you have effectively had a Big Plan in place for quite a long time, too. So, I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest, after reading your posts over the last year, that you also have a hard time finding any real Beast activity in yourself.

In a nutshell, then, I'm not interested in trying to detect an AV in your posts for the simple reason that, like me, I don't think you have one of any significance.

Now, about your posts, you are saying:

Originally Posted by RobbyRobot View Post
... These are my words.

I'm not going to care much what they may not mean to you, unless you can detect some hidden AV in my words. If you can, feel free to educate me. If not, then don't even bother to tell me it may not be the exact definition found in the RR:TNC.
Well, when I now say that I WILL bother to reply to what I see in your (or anyone's) posts as not accurate AVRT concepts, I'm not saying it to antagonize you or anyone personally. I'm doing it because I believe I have a sound understanding of the art of AVRT; I believe it is an iron-clad method of self-recovery as it has been carefully developed by Jack Trimpey; and I choose to discuss and debate its concepts freely here to provide more AVRT material for others to utilize immediately and later through the archives.

With all that said, with my 200 plus posts over one year, I try to be realistic about how much I can really do in the broad scheme of things.

GT
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Old 01-10-2013, 04:34 AM
  # 44 (permalink)  
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As a novice with a clumsy understanding of RR can I just say that, regardless of the theoretical disagreements in the practice of AVRT exposed in this thread, I take great comfort in the fact that both you GT and RobR have successfully got and remained sober for so long. Long may we learn from each other.
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Old 01-11-2013, 08:13 AM
  # 45 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by GerandTwine View Post
Hi RR,

While you and I presently have quite different recovery program involvement, I think we both can be considered "old timers" with our combined abstinence of over 63 years.
Yeah, I'm on board with all that too. We are quite different, lol.

Originally Posted by GT
Over the recent years, I have occasionally tested my Beast by making scotch-on-the-rocks; to hear the golden liquor pour out of the fancy bottle, listen to the ice crackle, then feel the cold glass in my hand and lift it up to my nose and deeply smell it. That's the closest I can get to resurrecting my Beast, yet still, I'm unable to recall the pleasurable sensation. Could I handle it if I tried drinking again? It's a meaningless question because I took the choice away from myself many years ago. So, I know my alcohol/drug Beast is less than an old withered up appendix, and even in those extreme tests, I can just barely hear it or feel it any more.
Yeah, I agree with you. Its a meaningless question, and yet you still ask it of yourself? This asking, to me, creates AV because within the question is some possible doubt of the outcome. This possible doubt creates AV. Puposely creating AV has mixed results, eventually, is my experience. I'm not into doing that anymore.

What if you couldn't handle it? Even though you can effectively deal with the AV created, the doubt still must be resolved, the AV dimissed, and all the while your Beast got a little taste of meat there, imo. Feeding the Beast is what it is, I suppose. Mine is starved, and I prefer to not play selfish games with outcomes that I already know of the said outcome, before my needless manufacturing of new doubt.

I have in my sober time tested myself in various ways so as to shake out any deeper hidden AV. You know, looking for possible as yet undisclosed doubts and hidden agenda which might be important for me to be aware of so as to be on my toes so to speak in whatever situations I can imagine as practical future situations I may find myself experiencing. There is nothing left to much test against for me anymore. My 31 yrs of unbroken abstinence ongoing is more then half my life. It's all good now, lol. I've recovered already.

I do not though, directly test myself to see if I can recall or otherwise experience pleasure by way of holding a drink in my hands for the express purpose of trying to bring out my Beast. Having a drink in my hands wouldn't mean anything one way or the other. Purposely trying to prove something to myself about that drink in my hand would be just vanity at its worse for me.

I haven't forgotten about when my life was being threatend with alcohol. And I never will. And I won't ever change my mind. I'm all stocked up on been there and done that with alcoholic pleasures.

Originally Posted by GT
Well, I'm guessing there's a good chance you also cannot recall that long lost sensation of pleasure from being under the influence. I believe you have effectively had a Big Plan in place for quite a long time, too. So, I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest, after reading your posts over the last year, that you also have a hard time finding any real Beast activity in yourself.
Well, you got me wrong. Like I'm saying, I can easily remember not only the pleasure I received but also the consequences of the pleasure morphing against me into an extreme experience of decidely displeasure. I absolutely remember where I have been relative to my drinking days, when contemplating how I felt during those drinking experiences. I quit drinking not because it felt good, lol. I quit drinking because I was dying from the inside out. This did not feel good, this dying thing while drinking, or while I pretended to be managing my drinking, or when I would swear off drinking, delude myself into forgetting I was feeling like death warmed over, and return to drinking, looking to see if I could feel good about drinking again. I have no future which includes drinking, so the pleasure for me is as good as the last time(s) I had a drink, and believe me, it sure as hell didn't feel good.

Originally Posted by GT
In a nutshell, then, I'm not interested in trying to detect an AV in your posts for the simple reason that, like me, I don't think you have one of any significance.

Well, when I now say that I WILL bother to reply to what I see in your (or anyone's) posts as not accurate AVRT concepts, I'm not saying it to antagonize you or anyone personally. I'm doing it because I believe I have a sound understanding of the *art* of AVRT; I believe it is an iron-clad method of self-recovery as it has been carefully developed by Jack Trimpey; and I choose to discuss and debate its concepts freely here to provide more AVRT material for others to utilize immediately and later through the archives.

With all that said, with my 200 plus posts over one year, I try to be realistic about how much I can really do in the broad scheme of things.

GT
Well, you do what ever works for you. It won't make a bit of difference to me, now that I've re-positioned myself to understand where you are coming from, GT. I'm interested in what you post of course, I'm not interested in your comparative analysis of my AVRT. My practice of AVRT is also an expression of myself, and since you don't actually seriously get who I am, where I've come from, and where I'm going, there is not much of value being offered to me to be honest. I'm not just anybody. And I'm certainly not your student. I'm me. Yeah, baby.

Feel free though to use me (or anyone else) as an example of what not to do with AVRT if you think, feel and conclude that while doing so, such behaviors from you are helpful to yourself, and others. No problemo. Have at it. While you're busy doing all that, I'll be busy doing something else.

I like to walk around in a persons shoes as much as I can imagine before I do whatever with them. I like to be in agreement with them that we have some level of human relationship, and I like to be of service towards that end. No matter how a person makes their way into recovery, and keeps themselves recovered, its not my business to correct them like I'm marking their term papers, lol. I know alot of stuff in my 55 yrs. Doesn't mean everybody and anybody wants to hear it, lol. I always think of persons listening to me on whatever level they may choose to participate, as an enjoyed privilege for me, that they have extended to me, no less.


See ya later, GT.

:ghug3
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Old 01-11-2013, 09:48 AM
  # 46 (permalink)  
 
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Awwww you guys...I think you almost hugged...

kidding.

This is a great thread. I think it serves as a valuable archive for others in learning AVRT. In my understanding of the technique, there is not much room for interpretation. It's not a "take what you like and leave the rest" approach, but that said, we each assimilate information in a way that makes sense to us individually. For my own personal application, when in doubt...it's AV. Doesn't matter if it is or isn't, ya know...weird thoughts get assigned AV and I move on. Easier for me that way.

I haven't had a drink in years, but not even close to as long as you guys. I rarely have any beast activity. Most recently with smoking, I do poke the beehive by being around people who are smoking, and touching, holding, smelling a pack of smokes, etc
Doesn't matter how excited *she* gets...*I'm* not smoking. Alot of people don't understand this practice, but I do. It works for me.

You guys are cool. xo
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Old 01-11-2013, 10:12 AM
  # 47 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by GerandTwine View Post
I have occasionally tested my Beast by making scotch-on-the-rocks; to hear the golden liquor pour out of the fancy bottle, listen to the ice crackle, then feel the cold glass in my hand and lift it up to my nose and deeply smell it.
Thanks for that. Now I REALLY crave a drink.
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Old 01-11-2013, 10:15 AM
  # 48 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by MyTimeNow View Post
Thanks for that. Now I REALLY crave a drink.
Or I should say *I* don't. It does. I won't. But I think it's a bit much considering newcomers come here to learn too.
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Old 01-11-2013, 10:37 AM
  # 49 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by RobbyRobot View Post
Yeah, I'm on board with all that too. We are quite different, lol.

Originally Posted by GT
Over the recent years, I have occasionally tested my Beast by making scotch-on-the-rocks; to hear the golden liquor pour out of the fancy bottle, listen to the ice crackle, then feel the cold glass in my hand and lift it up to my nose and deeply smell it. That's the closest I can get to resurrecting my Beast, yet still, I'm unable to recall the pleasurable sensation. Could I handle it if I tried drinking again? It's a meaningless question because I took the choice away from myself many years ago. So, I know my alcohol/drug Beast is less than an old withered up appendix, and even in those extreme tests, I can just barely hear it or feel it any more.
Yeah, I agree with you. Its a meaningless question, and yet you still ask it of yourself? This asking, to me, creates AV because within the question is some possible doubt of the outcome. This possible doubt creates AV. Purposely creating AV has mixed results, eventually, is my experience. I'm not into doing that anymore.
The particular Technique of AVR I used with the scotch-on-the-rocks is called SHIFTING. The intention of SHIFTING is to, yes, draw out and create some AV. That very doubt you mention is AV. I couldn't even feel any doubt.

I knew MY absolute detachment from the drink, and then I intentionally tried to recognize ITs single-minded demand to get me to drink it. Well, it was hardly there at all. It did remind me of dank dark barrooms with pool tables. But no ambivalence. And since I can't remember the pleasurable sensation of being even slightly under the influence, let alone drunk, there was no "appetite" pressure.

For me it's the same with pot. I had a strange pot using dream not too many years ago, and when it got to the point in the dream where I smoked, the sensation of being high didn't happen the way it used to in my dreams decades ago. Instead I just felt huge fatigue and slightly dizzy, like my brain was trying to recreate the high sensation, but it simply couldn't. It had been too long ago.

What if you couldn't handle it? Even though you can effectively deal with the AV created, the doubt still must be resolved, the AV dimissed, and all the while your Beast got a little taste of meat there, imo. Feeding the Beast is what it is, I suppose. Mine is starved, and I prefer to not play selfish games with outcomes that I already know of the said outcome, before my needless manufacturing of new doubt.

I have in my sober time tested myself in various ways so as to shake out any deeper hidden AV. You know, looking for possible as yet undisclosed doubts and hidden agenda which might be important for me to be aware of so as to be on my toes so to speak in whatever situations I can imagine as practical future situations I may find myself experiencing. There is nothing left to much test against for me anymore. My 31 yrs of unbroken abstinence ongoing is more then half my life. It's all good now, lol. I've recovered already.

I do not though, directly test myself to see if I can recall or otherwise experience pleasure by way of holding a drink in my hands for the express purpose of trying to bring out my Beast. Having a drink in my hands wouldn't mean anything one way or the other. Purposely trying to prove something to myself about that drink in my hand would be just vanity at its worse for me.

I haven't forgotten about when my life was being threatend with alcohol. And I never will. And I won't ever change my mind. I'm all stocked up on been there and done that with alcoholic pleasures.
What you describe above reminds me of your dedication to the recovery group movement and what in AVRT is called the "institutionalized Addictive Voice". The recovery group movement, in making sobriety a group project, tends to leave in place one's doubt about their alone being capable of not drinking, while in AVRT that doubt is exposed and dismissed (like with the Shifting exercise I did). That may be where your sense that the Shifting I tried to do with the scotch-on-the-rocks was a sort of vanity on my part. I can see that. But I believe that shifting exercise proves the potency of AVRT in both solving the problem and allowing the PhD (Phormer Drunk) to put the addiction behind them and get on with their own way of life.

Well, you got me wrong. Like I'm saying, I can easily remember not only the pleasure I received but also the consequences of the pleasure morphing against me into an extreme experience of decidely displeasure. I absolutely remember where I have been relative to my drinking days, when contemplating how I felt during those drinking experiences. I quit drinking not because it felt good, lol. I quit drinking because I was dying from the inside out. This did not feel good, this dying thing while drinking, or while I pretended to be managing my drinking, or when I would swear off drinking, delude myself into forgetting I was feeling like death warmed over, and return to drinking, looking to see if I could feel good about drinking again. I have no future which includes drinking, so the pleasure for me is as good as the last time(s) I had a drink, and believe me, it sure as hell didn't feel good.

Well, you do what ever works for you. It won't make a bit of difference to me, now that I've re-positioned myself to understand where you are coming from, GT. I'm interested in what you post of course, I'm not interested in your comparative analysis of my AVRT. My practice of AVRT is also an expression of myself, and since you don't actually seriously get who I am, where I've come from, and where I'm going, there is not much of value being offered to me to be honest. I'm not just anybody. And I'm certainly not your student. I'm me. Yeah, baby.

Feel free though to use me (or anyone else) as an example of what not to do with AVRT if you think, feel and conclude that while doing so, such behaviors from you are helpful to yourself, and others. No problemo. Have at it. While you're busy doing all that, I'll be busy doing something else.

I like to walk around in a persons shoes as much as I can imagine before I do whatever with them. I like to be in agreement with them that we have some level of human relationship, and I like to be of service towards that end. No matter how a person makes their way into recovery, and keeps themselves recovered, its not my business to correct them like I'm marking their term papers, lol. I know alot of stuff in my 55 yrs. Doesn't mean everybody and anybody wants to hear it, lol. I always think of persons listening to me on whatever level they may choose to participate, as an enjoyed privilege for me, that they have extended to me, no less.

See ya later, GT.

:ghug3
The Technique of Recognizing the Addictive Voice is brutal against the desire to drink/use again. When people use the laser focus of the RT to expose the AV, it can sometimes be misinterpreted by an onlooker as being condescending, vain, mean, any number of adjectives. But hopefully, with further understanding, those adjectives get dropped.

GT
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Old 01-11-2013, 10:55 AM
  # 50 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by MyTimeNow View Post
Or I should say *I* don't. It does. I won't. But I think it's a bit much considering newcomers come here to learn too.
MTN,

Now, that AVR took just three minutes. I know you can get it down to three seconds.

GT
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Old 01-11-2013, 11:27 AM
  # 51 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by soberlicious View Post
Awwww you guys...I think you almost hugged...

kidding.

This is a great thread. I think it serves as a valuable archive for others in learning AVRT. In my understanding of the technique, there is not much room for interpretation. It's not a "take what you like and leave the rest" approach, but that said, we each assimilate information in a way that makes sense to us individually. For my own personal application, when in doubt...it's AV. Doesn't matter if it is or isn't, ya know...weird thoughts get assigned AV and I move on. Easier for me that way.

I haven't had a drink in years, but not even close to as long as you guys. I rarely have any beast activity. Most recently with smoking, I do poke the beehive by being around people who are smoking, and touching, holding, smelling a pack of smokes, etc
Doesn't matter how excited *she* gets...*I'm* not smoking. Alot of people don't understand this practice, but I do. It works for me.

You guys are cool. xo
Well, to me, there is more art in AVRT then science, and so plenty of room for interpretation, no? As for my take-what-you-like-and-leave-the-rest approach, I absolutely enjoy doing that with everything in life, certainly and absolutely, lol. Is there really another way to get on with life? Seriously, my personal life is what I make of it, my life is not something that is simply taught to me by others, and then replicated by me so as to fit in or otherwise belong. I'll not only be a spectator to what is happening in the moments of my life. Not only am I an actor, I'm also a producer and director, and I'm otherwise very involved, lol.

Damn straight I take what I need/want and leave the rest. No problemo.

My applying any kind of analysis technique to my psyche with the goal of achieving enlightenment in the application requires an appreciation of more then what science can offer me. Of course, I'm a spiritual person living a spiritual life, and although AVRT dosen't care one way or the other, I certainly do. I'm more then just the sum of me.

Cool is as cool does, yeah?

:ghug3
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Old 01-11-2013, 11:55 AM
  # 52 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by RobbyRobot
Seriously, my personal life is what I make of it, my life is not something that is simply taught to me by others, and then replicated by me so as to fit in or otherwise belong.
Well of course not, that would be weird and sad.
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Old 01-11-2013, 12:05 PM
  # 53 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by GerandTwine View Post
The particular Technique of AVR I used with the scotch-on-the-rocks is called SHIFTING. The intention of SHIFTING is to, yes, draw out and create some AV. That very doubt you mention is AV. I couldn't even feel any doubt.

I knew MY absolute detachment from the drink, and then I intentionally tried to recognize ITs single-minded demand to get me to drink it. Well, it was hardly there at all. It did remind me of dank dark barrooms with pool tables. But no ambivalence. And since I can't remember the pleasurable sensation of being even slightly under the influence, let alone drunk, there was no "appetite" pressure.

For me it's the same with pot. I had a strange pot using dream not too many years ago, and when it got to the point in the dream where I smoked, the sensation of being high didn't happen the way it used to in my dreams decades ago. Instead I just felt huge fatigue and slightly dizzy, like my brain was trying to recreate the high sensation, but it simply couldn't. It had been too long ago.
Yeah, I know about SHIFTING. I'll comment on that in a bit in another post in this thread. There is alot there to cover, lol.


Originally Posted by GT
What you describe above reminds me of your dedication to the recovery group movement and what in AVRT is called the "institutionalized Addictive Voice". The recovery group movement, in making sobriety a group project, tends to leave in place one's doubt about their alone being capable of not drinking, while in AVRT that doubt is exposed and dismissed (like with the Shifting exercise I did). That may be where your sense that the Shifting I tried to do with the scotch-on-the-rocks was a sort of vanity on my part. I can see that. But I believe that shifting exercise proves the potency of AVRT in both solving the problem and allowing the PhD (Phormer Drunk) to put the addiction behind them and get on with their own way of life.

The Technique of Recognizing the Addictive Voice is brutal against the desire to drink/use again. When people use the laser focus of the RT to expose the AV, it can sometimes be misinterpreted by an onlooker as being condescending, vain, mean, any number of adjectives. But hopefully, with further understanding, those adjectives get dropped.

GT
Well, here again, you got me wrong. I'm not dedicated now, nor was I ever, to the recovery group movement. I'm always a complete maverick within that scene. Sure I have graduated and completed the Twelve Steps. Sure I call myself an alcoholic as defined by AA. I use the Twelve Steps the same as I use AVRT -- a means to and end for desired results. Another lifestyle choice, as it were. However, just like choosing to be spiritual doesn't equate to mean I also choose to be religious, so too can you not simply equate my prior and ongoing experience with the program of AA as being in support of the group recovery movement.

MAVERICK simply more realistically defines me in so many things...

I don't personally support organised treatment modalities. I'm all about personal recovery and being recovered. The thing is, is I also don't have any ax to grind against them though either. My approach and experience with such things as organised religion and organised treatments for alcoholism is/are simply 'live and let live' .

Can't really say more here, because AA and 12 Step programs are off limits in this forum, and I not only respect that, I agree with the off limits rules. I just said enough to give accurate information as to my true experiences in answer to your statement charging me that I'm a supporter of group-think methodologies.

I really don't care either way. I take what I need/want, and I'm on my own way there after.

Yeah.

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Old 01-11-2013, 07:41 PM
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Here are my thoughts on shifting posted last fall.

Originally Posted by RobbyRobot View Post
Originally Posted by Tammy711
Instead, I tried shifting and thought about a nice bottle of wine on our table. I tried to let my AV out and relish the thought of a glass or two of wine with my sea bass. The odd thing is, I just didn't want the wine. I didn't even want or feel the need for the accompanying pleasurable buzz.

Now is this my AV playing games with me or me playing games with my AV? If my AV knows I am setting "it" up - maybe it doesn't want to play along. Smile.
Hi Tammy. Great question.

Okay. First things first...

When we shift, we make a sincere attempt to experience the ongoing moments from the Beasts perspective. When we shift back, we are once again experiencing from our own perspective. So, we are simply shifting perspectives, and not identities.

So, you can see how your quoted words above are confusing, and are allowing for AV to dominate, which is not the same as shifting into the Beasts perspective.

When I shift, my use of "I" simply stops. The Beast is addictive desire, and has no true "I" of it's own for me to shift into. It "harvests" from me by using my normal thoughts and images from my mind. The Beast does not have a "mind" for me to shift into... so my use of "I" will cause the shift to fail.

Shifting is done wrong when one simply starts to think "I want that nice wonderful drink and all that party fun too." All this is just more AV. While shifting, I of course still will never drink and will never change my mind. When we shift, we don't suspend our Big Plan, lol.

Shifting gives me a rush of physical addictive desire and emotions and feelings, and my mind is then flooded with AV. It is important to clearly remember that AV is still AV while shifting.

Shifting is useful to prepare for the situations and scenarios which may present while being abstinent. Say like if one went to a party, just how strongly would my Beast desire me to drink? How powerful would my AV become? Shifting gives me some ideas of what is what with me personally, and what may be expected to happen.

To tell you the truth, shifting is not something I do anymore. After a few early years in with my Beast howling uselessly for that drink which will never come, I'm intimately familiar with addictive desire, and the AV which goes with it for all situations and scenarios imaginable, lol. For me to shift nowadays, would just be me more or less baiting myself...

Shifting was useful to help me experience the full measure of my Beast. I learned first hand from its perspective that all my Beast can ever accomplish is nothing more than having extreme addictive desires. Thats it. Nothing more. So, that understanding, from experience, helped me to appreciate how ridiculous was the sole purpose for the existence of my Beast.

I hope my share has helped, Tammy.

As you can see, when shifting is done correctly, we have nothing to fear, and no danger exists.
And this makes great sense to me too:

Originally Posted by Terminally Unique View Post

There are two other "tricks" in the AVRT toolchest I'd like to touch on.

The first, vertigo, is mentioned on page 156 of the RR book. If it feels like you the Beast has taken control of the "I," and you sense that you are on autopilot, on the way to the liquor store, the book recommends giving that feeling a label, and calling it "vertigo," as in "I am in vertigo!"

In a later book, "The Art of AVRT," it is recommended to change the tense, so rather than telling yourself "I am in vertigo," you would tell yourself "That was vertigo!" This sleight of hand with the wording is an interesting insight, and by referring to it in the past sense, you can trick your mind into snapping right out of it.

Another technique, mentioned on page 202 of the RR book, is called "shifting," whereby you alternate between how "you" view something, versus how the Beast sees something. For example, in my case, the Beast would see a bottle of scotch as a source of relaxation, fun, but I can "shift" into how "I" see it, which is as poison - a source of pain.

As another example, suppose I see people waiting in line at the liquor store to cash their paycheck. On payday in certain areas, this line can be around the block. How does the Beast see these people? As "my kind of people," willing to start the party before they even get home, and before their families can stop them. How do "I" see them? As being up to no good, getting ready to waste the family's income on drink before the paycheck can even be deposited.

Think of your favorite drug dealer. How does the Beast see this person? As a great guy, of course. He gets you your stuff, and to the Beast, it is a shame that he lives so far away. How do "you" view this drug dealer? As bad company, as someone you probably wouldn't want your mother to meet.

You can employ this "shifting" tactic in almost any social situation, such as at a party. For example, the Beast will see someone who is making a fool out of themselves at a wedding as a potential drinking buddy, as someone to get to know. Shift into your right mind, though, and "you" will know better.

It is useful to try this "shifting" technique on your own, at home, by imagining the things that get the Beast fired up. This way, if and when you run into them "out there," you will be prepared.
And this as well:

Originally Posted by RR:TNC
Place an imitation of your favorite stuff on the table before you. If you like beer, pour a ginger ale; if you like bourbon, pour a shot of coffee on ice and water; if you like pot, put some tea leaves in a baggie; if you like coke coma, lay a line of flour or salt. Now, coma, look at it for several minutes. Allow yourself to imagine it is real stuff, and let the old, familiar feelings start up, imagine the smell, imagine sipping, sniffing, or smoking. Don't be afraid. Just let the Beast come out. Now, take a second look. You look at the stuff that has caused you so much trouble. You look at the stuff you will never use again period. Allow yourself feelings of disgust. Let your own feelings now take over, and you will find that your Beast withdraws and you feel either neutral or put off.

This exercise is called Shifting because it demonstrates that you have direct, voluntary control over the way you look at and feel about your intoxicant. There are two ways of looking at it, and you can always choose to look at alcohol or drugs either way. Your Beast will always lust after it, but you can instantly intervene and look at the substance yourself and completely change the way you feel.

Now return to the table. For the next five minutes, practice shifting back and forth between you and your Beast, first allowing it to get all worked up, then taking over with your right mind. Anyone can do this, but in AVRT we make it a part of your perfect defense against the Beast. -- Jack Trimpey
So, I can shift into the same perspective as my Beast, and shift back. I know how to do this easily, no problemo. I myself don't use just imagination, I must have the real thing in the actual environment, say at a party, or at a bar, for me to get into proper shifting. When I just use imagination, it seems too much like just more AV to me, and the whole thing just shuts down after one shift, lol. Still, I wouldn't ever pour myself a drink though just to get a shift going...

So this sums up my understanding and experiences of SHIFTING. Again we are different in our experiences GT:

Originally Posted by GerandTwine View Post
Over the recent years, I have occasionally tested my Beast by making scotch-on-the-rocks; to hear the golden liquor pour out of the fancy bottle, listen to the ice crackle, then feel the cold glass in my hand and lift it up to my nose and deeply smell it. That's the closest I can get to resurrecting my Beast, yet still, I'm unable to recall the pleasurable sensation. Could I handle it if I tried drinking again? It's a meaningless question because I took the choice away from myself many years ago. So, I know my alcohol/drug Beast is less than an old withered up appendix, and even in those extreme tests, I can just barely hear it or feel it any more.
For me SHIFTING (when I rarely do it anymore) does bring back both pleasure and displeasure, like I was already saying...

Hey, 'Live and let live' comes to mind, yeah?!
Rock on.

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Old 01-12-2013, 08:22 AM
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your guys' conversation reminds me of something a little related, when i was a few months or so sober and decided it was the right time to go into a liquor store and just be in there for a minute or two. i'd thought about this prior to going for a few days or so, and i was sure it wasn't about drinking or not drinking, or being weak or strong, or about temptation and fighting. i was trying to understand something about this stuff, this liquid. to see if something would...uh..."happen to me"...and to see what that might be.

after being in the store for a minute or so,( which felt rather odd and foreign, though of course it had been a very familiar place) i decided that this wasn't good enough, and that i should buy a bottle. so i did. i wanted to sit with it in the car, and see what the hell it IS about the stuff that so got to me, what the so-called-by-so-many ENEMY really was.
so i sat in the car with this bottle, turning it, feeling it, looking at it, looking through it, opening to it, and what i understood was : the stuff was just liquid. there was no enemy. the mess about it has nothing to do with the stuff in the bottle.
i saw that the problem, whatever it might be, wasn't in the bottle, but in me.
nothing happened in that car other than that. i gave that bottle to one of my grown-up kids, told her it was the most special one i'd ever bought, and went to my regular LR meeting.

all this, started from a question about commitment issues.

Newatthis, how are you doing?
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Old 01-12-2013, 08:45 AM
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Yeah, nothing beats knowing the alcohol drink itself is just what it is -- a beverage for drinkers. In my very earliest sobriety, under 90 days, I would often enough go with friends to a 24hr coffee spot/restaurant which was also licenced called of all things "Tomorrows"

The stuff was all around. Knowing it was there for the taking, and knowing I wasn't taking, was clearly a wonderful experience each and everytime.

Being afraid of alcohol, at whatever level, is not a good way forward. Fears breed doubt, and doubt creates AV for future drinking.

Do I advise people to go get a cold one and check things out? No, I don't. Yet, if someone decides they want to get over their fears of being around alcohol, then of course SHIFTING works well to that end. So does alot of other things work too.

In my experience though, even shifting has its limits. I now know my Beast and AV very well, and so shifting really is for me more a play on vanities for me to pretend I'm gonna learn a whole lot more from shifting. I suppose there came a time for me where whats the point? Certainly putting a drink in my hand proves nothing new nowadays, and so I would wonder wtf i was doing with that drink in my hand after 31 yrs, but that's me.

Yeah, this is an interesting thread for sure. Thanks again for Newatthis for being so open minded and accommodating.

How are things going, Newatthis?
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Old 01-12-2013, 05:47 PM
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"tomorrows" the irony is lost on "normies", no doubt. well, there isn't one, for those people. just up the street from here is a "cold beer and wine" store that always has a "poverty pack of the week" advertised in large letters.

Yeah, nothing beats knowing the alcohol drink itself is just what it is -
yes; sitting there with it gave me yet one more angle on what "i'm a drunk" meant: i had a relationship, a private intimate enmeshed all-pervasive torturous relationship with something that is....nothing in itself. the stuff is nothing, innocuous, without me.
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Old 01-13-2013, 05:40 AM
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Hi guys,

I've been re-reading through this thread every day to clarify and try to understand more fully the nuances people have discussed but I'm afraid alot of the differences have gone over my head. Nevertheless it's been really productive for me and hey, I'm still sober! for what it's worth here's where I'm at with AVRT.

AVRT is a dissociation technique whereby the addicted person can learn to recognise and separate the desire to drink with the healthy desire to not drink. Healthy in this case meaning physically beneficial as opposed to the primitive brain's 'healthy' desire to continue a behaviour that results in pleasure. So far I think I've understood that correctly.

My confusion arises when it comes to the Big Plan. This is something I still have trouble grasping. It seems like you can only know your BP was truly a BP retrospectively, maybe on your death bed or something! It's the notion of only making it once that creates this problem in my understanding. RobR - your advice to look upon it as a tool seems like a possible way to approach it. But even then I don't get why it can only be made once? OK, I get that if you make a BP and then drink again (which I did last year) then it wasn't a real BP. How do you square that sequence of events with making a subsequent BP?? Just admit it wasn't a real BP to begin with? Seems like a cop out to me. You could go on ad infinitum with BPs and justify relapses with that excuse.

AVRT appeals to me because a. I'm not religious b. I like things to make sense logically c. I believe in self-efficacy and d. I like immediate results!! The thought of a lifetime of meetings and resentment around alcohol seems like a poor trade-off for forgoing something that has been such a huge part of my life. Doesn't sound like freedom to me. With AVRT the power is returned to the addict, it's my choice to not drink. No one is imposing this on me. Suddenly I sense the possibility of freedom!

To me the risk of returning to alcohol will come when I start to lose concentration on what I'm doing and why I'm doing it. For me personally mindfulness comes into play here, I will have to remind myself from time to time. It's like anything in life I guess, sometimes you gotta force yourself to do the healthy thing. After I finish on SR in a while I will go for a run. Sure I'd prefer to crash on the couch and watch a movie, but after my run I will be glad I did that rather than the other! Overall a part of me believes quitting alcohol or any other addiction is about facing up to my responsibilities as an adult. Life cannot be one long party.

I feel happy. I am still hearing my AV every couple of days but so far so good. I'm going on vacation in a week and I think the reason it's been relatively easy thus far is because in the back of my mind there is the Beast biding its time.

It's hard not to get fixated on the terms/semantics of the language of AVRT, I think this has been the crux of my issue with the BP. I studied philosophy in college so maybe it's me! So I've decided to take the pragmatists' point of view and, a la RobR, cherry pick what works!!

Thanks everyone.
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Old 01-13-2013, 05:43 AM
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PS Fini - I like what you said about the problem not being what was in the bottle but what was in your head. So true
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Old 01-13-2013, 06:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Newatthis34 View Post

Hi guys,

I've been re-reading through this thread every day to clarify and try to understand more fully the nuances people have discussed but I'm afraid alot of the differences have gone over my head. Nevertheless it's been really productive for me and hey, I'm still sober! for what it's worth here's where I'm at with AVRT.

AVRT is a dissociation technique whereby the addicted person can learn to recognise and separate the desire to drink with the healthy desire to not drink. Healthy in this case meaning physically beneficial as opposed to the primitive brain's 'healthy' desire to continue a behaviour that results in pleasure. So far I think I've understood that correctly.
Awesome is as awesome does. Nicely said, and you got it going on, Newatthis. Seriously.

Originally Posted by Newatthis

My confusion arises when it comes to the Big Plan. This is something I still have trouble grasping. It seems like you can only know your BP was truly a BP retrospectively, maybe on your death bed or something! It's the notion of only making it once that creates this problem in my understanding.

RobR - your advice to look upon it as a tool seems like a possible way to approach it. But even then I don't get why it can only be made once?

OK, I get that if you make a BP and then drink again (which I did last year) then it wasn't a real BP. How do you square that sequence of events with making a subsequent BP?? Just admit it wasn't a real BP to begin with? Seems like a cop out to me. You could go on ad infinitum with BPs and justify relapses with that excuse.
Here is what I said earlier in the thread about a Big Plan:

Originally Posted by RobbyRobot View Post

Hmmm. I can of course create and re-create a BP has often as I want to or need to. There are no conditions or limits on any BP. Stating it can only be done once is itself a condition. BP's have no inherent or attached conditions...

Like any common tool or technique, a BP is what it is for function and design, and is not so peculiar that it needs to be put on a pedestal, under lights, and glorified as a get-it-right-or-go-home kinda experience.

A Big Plan cannot fail. Only wrongly perceived failures can be wrapped around an otherwise sound and true BP. A return to drinking is more likely being successful at drinking again rather then at failing to stay abstinence. This means the BP was superceded by an even bigger plan to succeed at drinking. Its really as simple as that. So yeah. Its not a one shot deal.

The internal struggle is over when the addiction ambivalence is no longer creating the struggle. I never struggled with my Beast itself, except in my imagination. My true real-time struggle was always with my addiction ambivlance -- ie simultaneously wanting to both drink and not drink. My Beast simply had its greatest effect on me while I so struggled. The Beast itself does not, and can not cause ambivalence, it merely takes advantage of it, while it can.

Once ambivalence is over and done, the Beast has suffered a great defeat, and its best days are over, yes, but yet the Beast remains a powerful monster what likes nothing more then to create doubt in ones self about recovery and being recovered.

This doubt can be enough to bring about a return to drinking, when the doubt is not appreciated as original AV. I'm always 100% positive about my recovered status, so my Beast is pretty well sucker-punched, hahaha.

AVRT makes no record of past failures or successes. AVRT always works no matter the history or future of any person practicing AVRT. AVRT is always about the now moment -- and for those in the know of the now, experiencing the now can easily paradoxically last a lifetime and beyond, no problemo.

AVRT is a very personalised experientially developed and learned practice of separation of ourselves from our Beasts/AV. Its more an art then a science, is my experienced opinion.


Originally Posted by Newatthis

AVRT appeals to me because a. I'm not religious b. I like things to make sense logically c. I believe in self-efficacy and d. I like immediate results!! The thought of a lifetime of meetings and resentment around alcohol seems like a poor trade-off for forgoing something that has been such a huge part of my life. Doesn't sound like freedom to me. With AVRT the power is returned to the addict, it's my choice to not drink. No one is imposing this on me. Suddenly I sense the possibility of freedom!

To me the risk of returning to alcohol will come when I start to lose concentration on what I'm doing and why I'm doing it. For me personally mindfulness comes into play here, I will have to remind myself from time to time. It's like anything in life I guess, sometimes you gotta force yourself to do the healthy thing. After I finish on SR in a while I will go for a run. Sure I'd prefer to crash on the couch and watch a movie, but after my run I will be glad I did that rather than the other! Overall a part of me believes quitting alcohol or any other addiction is about facing up to my responsibilities as an adult. Life cannot be one long party.

I feel happy. I am still hearing my AV every couple of days but so far so good. I'm going on vacation in a week and I think the reason it's been relatively easy thus far is because in the back of my mind there is the Beast biding its time.

It's hard not to get fixated on the terms/semantics of the language of AVRT, I think this has been the crux of my issue with the BP. I studied philosophy in college so maybe it's me! So I've decided to take the pragmatists' point of view and, a la RobR, cherry pick what works!!

Thanks everyone.
:ghug3
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