Go Back  SoberRecovery : Alcoholism Drug Addiction Help and Information > Secular Recovery > Secular Connections
Reload this Page >

Addictive Voice Recognition Technique (AVRT) Discussion — Part 5

Blogs


Notices

Addictive Voice Recognition Technique (AVRT) Discussion — Part 5

Old 08-17-2012, 06:21 PM
  # 81 (permalink)  
Life Goes On
 
Obladi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Baltimore, Maryland
Posts: 5,425
Blog Entries: 9
Meredith,

I am sorry for the trouble and anxiety DH has surely caused you and your/his family.
I think the only thing you can do is to try to impress upon him (while sober) the impact of his choices. Tell him what it's doing to you. Tell him you're not willing to take it anymore, if indeed you are not. And then follow through.

In the final analysis, each of us is responsible for our own choices and we cannot rescue anyone. Sad, maybe, but true.

You need to stand up for you. This is the good, right and moral thing for you to do.
Obladi is offline  
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Obladi For This Useful Post:
freshstart57 (08-17-2012), Lenina (08-30-2012), MeredithD1 (08-18-2012), ReadyAndAble (08-17-2012), RobbyRobot (08-21-2012)
Old 08-17-2012, 07:31 PM
  # 82 (permalink)  
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: San Diego
Posts: 4,450
I really don't have any advice, Meredith; you and Obladi both make a lot of sense to me. I wish you strength tomorrow, and hope some measure of peace is around the corner. Please keep posting. Hang in there.

ReadyAndAble is offline  
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to ReadyAndAble For This Useful Post:
Lenina (08-30-2012), MeredithD1 (08-18-2012), RobbyRobot (08-21-2012)
Old 08-18-2012, 11:57 AM
  # 83 (permalink)  
Life Goes On
 
Obladi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Baltimore, Maryland
Posts: 5,425
Blog Entries: 9
Jiminy Crickets!

About a year ago when I was making a go at becoming sober, I struck up an email correspondence with someone who showed up long enough to post a few desperate "I have to stop this nonsense" messages. Unlike some other folks on the board, I believed he was serious, so reached out to him. We've continued to communicate sporadically, but it seemed that if I wasn't drinking, he was, and vice versa.

So we recently started emailing again and he told me he has not been drinking and phrased much of his message in RR language, which I didn't recognize when he used it prior, but of course it's plain to me now. And we talked a bit back and forth about RR, and here's the last of what I just sent:

When you were drinking and desperately sad, I didn't like it. Frankly, it sounded like a lot of hand-wringing crap. And that bothered me because I thought "how much of a hypocrite can you be, Obladi? You're doing the same damned thing and how would you feel about it if someone was looking at you through the same lens?" I just this moment figured this part out: I think that my beast had great disdain for yours so that she could protect herself. (My beast is a female.) She thought, "Look at that pitiful thing. He is so miserable. Good thing we're not like him. At least WE have some control and are not that bad off." Not only is the beast a bitch, she's a nasty sniping soulless wicked bitch. WOW. Writing that out makes it even more clear to me.

p.s. I am totally TOTALLY digging this watching my language thing. Not only as in "be mindful of what you say to yourself," but also '"listen to what you just said."
I just re-read the start of that last paragraph and look what I said! Instead of saying I didn't like you... you sounded like you were full of crap, I said I didn't like it - it was full of crap!

Had no idea that was my phrasing until I read it again. (I wanted to be sure I said what I meant without being nasty.) Holy s***, Batman. I think I'm getting the hang of this.


Wow, indeed.
Obladi is offline  
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Obladi For This Useful Post:
Lenina (08-30-2012), MeredithD1 (08-18-2012), ReadyAndAble (08-20-2012), RobbyRobot (08-21-2012)
Old 08-18-2012, 07:28 PM
  # 84 (permalink)  
Present
 
MeredithD1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: "Happy Rock" (Gladstone) Oregon
Posts: 1,360
Blog Entries: 4
Our meeting went as well as it possibly could. We each (my FIL, my MIL and I) stated the effects his drinking has had on each of us, and I gave a very clear description of what I will do because he has broken his word - I said I'd put the car title back in my name and I am following through with that or else, as Jack Trimpey says, I will weaken my position - and I said my next step after that will be to contact a lawyer and draw up divorce papers.

I also went into detail about my Plan B, which is to move where my dad's family lives, and how I plan on financing that move, with the help of my dad, his wife and my best friend of 35 years. I said I'd had to get into that much detail because it seemed very real to me that I was going to have to take those steps so I made a solid plan to do so.

He wrote in paper, "I will never drink again as long as I live, and I will never change my mind," and signed it "Love," and then his name. He saw The Beast in any effort to slide out from under that.

I feel good, for the first time in a long time, like we've had a breakthrough. He didn't just try to placate us. He gave us all his doubts etc. We talked for a total of five hours. He realized at each hesitation that it was The Beast talking.

We used Jack Trimpey's Zero Tolerance Ultimatum to guide us.

At the end of it, my inlaws stated that on 08/18/13, they would give us the gift of a trip to celebrate his lifelong commitment to never drinking again. The trip involves some very personal things he has wanted to do.

Last edited by Morning Glory; 08-24-2012 at 10:00 PM. Reason: removed link
MeredithD1 is offline  
The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to MeredithD1 For This Useful Post:
Dalek (08-18-2012), Lenina (08-30-2012), Obladi (08-18-2012), ReadyAndAble (08-20-2012), RobbyRobot (08-21-2012), seanie1888 (08-20-2012), waterwagon (07-31-2013)
Old 08-18-2012, 07:28 PM
  # 85 (permalink)  
Self recovered Self discovered
 
freshstart57's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Toronto Canada
Posts: 5,147
Brilliant, Obladi, that was some very perceptive insight, your analysis about your beast building you up to lead you back to the bottle.
The Addictive Voice is any thinking that supports or suggests the possible future use of alcohol or other drugs.
She thought, "Look at that pitiful thing. He is so miserable. Good thing we're not like him. At least WE have some control and are not that bad off."
Yep, that AV was saying that you can control your drinking, so let's have a cold one to celebrate our good fortune. Amazing.
freshstart57 is offline  
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to freshstart57 For This Useful Post:
Lenina (08-30-2012), Obladi (08-18-2012), ReadyAndAble (08-20-2012), RobbyRobot (08-21-2012)
Old 08-18-2012, 07:43 PM
  # 86 (permalink)  
Self recovered Self discovered
 
freshstart57's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Toronto Canada
Posts: 5,147
Meredith, sorry for posting out of turn, but your post was riveting. I say this because I was told something similar on the day of my last drink. It was my father, mother, wife and daughters that were there, and they did exactly what you said that you did.
'You are about to lose your marriage, the respect of your children forever, your home, your job, and then things will start to go downhill for you. So, do whatever you have to do, but you need to choose between alcohol and your life as you know it because you cannot have both. You are only going to get one chance to make this good, so what is it going to be?'
That day was August 22, 2011 and I haven't had a drink since. That is one year of sobriety coming up on this Wednesday. I sincerely hope that you and your DH make that celebration trip in a year.

A side note is that Pa said these things to me, and we all talked as you did with your husband, a month before I knew anything about AVRT. Even today, they have no idea who J Trimpey is or what RR stands for. That is one reason of many why RR rings so true for me.
freshstart57 is offline  
The Following 7 Users Say Thank You to freshstart57 For This Useful Post:
Dalek (08-19-2012), MeredithD1 (08-23-2012), Neagrm (03-06-2013), Obladi (08-18-2012), ReadyAndAble (08-20-2012), RobbyRobot (08-21-2012), seanie1888 (08-20-2012)
Old 08-18-2012, 08:26 PM
  # 87 (permalink)  
Life Goes On
 
Obladi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Baltimore, Maryland
Posts: 5,425
Blog Entries: 9
Meredith,

This is good. You said your piece. You have a plan. You mean it. He heard you. I join freshstart in positive affirmations for a transformational year for your family. If AH has not read Rational Recovery, please encourage him to do so. This book (and this thread) have really hit home for me. May you all rest well tonight.
Obladi is offline  
The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to Obladi For This Useful Post:
freshstart57 (08-18-2012), Lenina (08-30-2012), MeredithD1 (08-23-2012), ReadyAndAble (08-20-2012), RobbyRobot (08-21-2012), seanie1888 (08-20-2012)
Old 08-18-2012, 10:09 PM
  # 88 (permalink)  
Member
 
Dalek's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 309
Originally Posted by MeredithD1 View Post
I'll be emailing my inlaws some info from the rational recovery site... If you have ideas of what we can say or do tomorrow that I haven't read yet in Rational Recovery, I'm all ears.
Meredith,

Good for you. I recommend sending along a link to the "Crash Course on AVRT for Families of Addiction", which, although mentioned on the Families and Friends page, is not linked correctly. Hopefully someone at RR will see this post and correct the incorrect link.

If you Google "Crash Course on AVRT for Families of Addiction", though, you will find it.
Dalek is offline  
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Dalek For This Useful Post:
MeredithD1 (08-23-2012), ReadyAndAble (08-18-2012), RobbyRobot (08-21-2012)
Old 08-20-2012, 02:03 PM
  # 89 (permalink)  
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 802
'You are about to lose your marriage, the respect of your children forever, your home, your job, and then things will start to go downhill for you. So, do whatever you have to do, but you need to choose between alcohol and your life as you know it because you cannot have both. You are only going to get one chance to make this good, so what is it going to be?'

This has been said to me many times, but only here and now has it really hit a cord with me.

Thanks for this freshstart
seanie1888 is offline  
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to seanie1888 For This Useful Post:
freshstart57 (08-21-2012), MeredithD1 (08-23-2012), Obladi (08-20-2012), ReadyAndAble (08-20-2012), RobbyRobot (08-21-2012)
Old 08-20-2012, 09:23 PM
  # 90 (permalink)  
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: San Diego
Posts: 4,450
You need to choose between alcohol and your life ... so what is it going to be?
One of the things I love about AVRT—and the more time that goes by, the more I appreciate this—is the clear line it helps me to draw. Alcohol or your life; does it get any starker than that? I'm either a drinker, or I'm not. There's no middle ground, no fuzzy edges. A thought either supports drinking, or it doesn't. It either comes from my addiction, or it comes from me. Right or wrong. Black or white. Gray areas are just another form of AV.

I am disturbingly good at rationalizing; always have been. But AVRT doesn't leave me any wiggle room, no way to rationalize or excuse drinking. And that's awesome, because I spent years rationalizing drinking—whether to drink, when to drink, how much to drink, when to stop, whether to start again... It was exhausting trying to live in the gray areas.

I will never drink again. That word, "never," used to intimidate me. Of course now I realize that was nothing more than AV.

Never, when applied to drinking, is the most comforting word I know.
ReadyAndAble is offline  
The Following 16 Users Say Thank You to ReadyAndAble For This Useful Post:
aeo1313 (08-21-2012), Auvers (08-21-2012), Dalek (08-21-2012), Dalia (08-23-2012), DarkDays (09-02-2012), freshstart57 (08-21-2012), Gavinandnikki (08-30-2012), Lenina (08-30-2012), Marcher13 (03-27-2013), MeredithD1 (08-23-2012), MrsKing (08-25-2012), nexttime (09-18-2012), Peta (08-25-2012), RobbyRobot (08-21-2012), seanie1888 (08-20-2012), waterwagon (07-31-2013)
Old 08-21-2012, 03:53 AM
  # 91 (permalink)  
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Water's Edge
Posts: 239
Blog Entries: 2
You said it very well. Thanks.
Auvers is offline  
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Auvers For This Useful Post:
MeredithD1 (08-23-2012), ReadyAndAble (08-21-2012), RobbyRobot (08-21-2012)
Old 08-23-2012, 01:49 PM
  # 92 (permalink)  
Present
 
MeredithD1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: "Happy Rock" (Gladstone) Oregon
Posts: 1,360
Blog Entries: 4
Originally Posted by freshstart57 View Post
Meredith, sorry for posting out of turn, but your post was riveting. I say this because I was told something similar on the day of my last drink. It was my father, mother, wife and daughters that were there, and they did exactly what you said that you did.
'You are about to lose your marriage, the respect of your children forever, your home, your job, and then things will start to go downhill for you. So, do whatever you have to do, but you need to choose between alcohol and your life as you know it because you cannot have both. You are only going to get one chance to make this good, so what is it going to be?'
That day was August 22, 2011 and I haven't had a drink since. That is one year of sobriety coming up on this Wednesday. I sincerely hope that you and your DH make that celebration trip in a year.

A side note is that Pa said these things to me, and we all talked as you did with your husband, a month before I knew anything about AVRT. Even today, they have no idea who J Trimpey is or what RR stands for. That is one reason of many why RR rings so true for me.
thank you for this we are doing very well - I haven't been able to be this relaxed around my husband in a long time. It is as Trimpey says, (paraphrased) that we are right in seeing that alcohol changes our loved ones as if they are possessed, that the one we love has been overtaken and isn't there any more. We are having a happier marriage. All things look better and brighter. My husband is present and with me. YEA!! and happy year and a day of sobriety. a lifetime well-lived, never drinking again, instead of a lifetime wasted, giving yourself over to the Beast, is truly a reason to celebrate.


Originally Posted by ReadyAndAble View Post
One of the things I love about AVRT—and the more time that goes by, the more I appreciate this—is the clear line it helps me to draw. Alcohol or your life; does it get any starker than that? I'm either a drinker, or I'm not. There's no middle ground, no fuzzy edges. A thought either supports drinking, or it doesn't. It either comes from my addiction, or it comes from me. Right or wrong. Black or white. Gray areas are just another form of AV.

I am disturbingly good at rationalizing; always have been. But AVRT doesn't leave me any wiggle room, no way to rationalize or excuse drinking. And that's awesome, because I spent years rationalizing drinking—whether to drink, when to drink, how much to drink, when to stop, whether to start again... It was exhausting trying to live in the gray areas.

I will never drink again. That word, "never," used to intimidate me. Of course now I realize that was nothing more than AV.

Never, when applied to drinking, is the most comforting word I know.
that "no wiggle room" is excellent, and I love what it's doing to my marriage. He was so slippery all the time, and hiding and lying. It is so good to be here now. We will never go back

I haven't been online in a bunch of days and want to thank you all for your responses! It's good to be happy. Our 17-year-old feline is getting a lot of time and attention because she has a new health issue on top of the old one, so we are getting in all the love we can, all the time.

AND...

my stepmother-in-law's eldest son's wife, has a father who has been practicing alcoholic for decades, including when my step-SIL was a child. A few weeks ago, the father sold a $3000 car for $400 and then took 2 weeks to go through the $400 by purchasing alcohol. So now he and his wife don't even have the money for food or toilet paper, and now no car either.

So my stepMIL shared the Crash Course and Advanced Course and link to the Families page online with my stepSIL and her mother.

My stepSIL and her mother - who is still married to the father - were extremely happy to receive this, so my stepMIL bought the RR book for each of them (off Amazon) and another copy for herself and my father-in-law!!

RR/AVRT is the gift that gives for the rest of our lives. you gave it to me, I passed it on, and you know it will continue to be passed on.

thank you.
MeredithD1 is offline  
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to MeredithD1 For This Useful Post:
Dalek (08-23-2012), freshstart57 (08-23-2012), Obladi (08-23-2012), ReadyAndAble (08-23-2012), RobbyRobot (08-25-2012)
Old 08-23-2012, 03:30 PM
  # 93 (permalink)  
Self recovered Self discovered
 
freshstart57's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Toronto Canada
Posts: 5,147
That is just the greatest thing to hear, Meredith! I am so very happy for you and your husband. I certainly had some mixed emotions for the first few days about this new direction that my life was taking, but as my head cleared and my wd symptoms cleared, that euphoria and relief set in. I felt so much better in myself and therefore in my marriage, I felt that I was able to be real and present for the first time in a decade.

The most helpful things I heard during this time were encouragement - 'Of course you can do this, I know that about you already, this is the sort of thing you can do'. He will be happy to hear your quiet presence there with him.

I also wish you the best with your extended family too, Meredith. I admire your strength and I feel that youse guys will be OK.
freshstart57 is offline  
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to freshstart57 For This Useful Post:
MeredithD1 (08-26-2012), ReadyAndAble (08-23-2012), RobbyRobot (08-25-2012)
Old 08-24-2012, 08:01 PM
  # 94 (permalink)  
Member
 
Dalek's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 309
Originally Posted by ReadyAndAble View Post
I'm either a drinker, or I'm not. There's no middle ground, no fuzzy edges. A thought either supports drinking, or it doesn't. It either comes from my addiction, or it comes from me. Right or wrong. Black or white. Gray areas are just another form of AV.
This is a piercing insight. The Beast itself lives in a black and white world, and it will be quite happy with gray, because to the Beast, gray is just another form of black. Even if you are 99.99999% confident that you will never drink or use again, the Beast will still think "YES!!! Halleluyah!!! There is hope!!! I'm in!!!"

From the on, the Beast will build on that 0.00001% hole, chipping away to make it bigger. The AVRT crash course mentions a hypothetical plan for drinking again in 200 years, which the Beast will love. It won't complain at all, because it knows that time is on its side, and all it has to do is start chipping away and shorten that time frame.

AVRT simply mirrors the logic of the Beast, and we think like the Beast itself in order to beat it at its own game.

Originally Posted by RR:TNC, Pg. 134
In the logic of AVRT, the absence of a plan to quit for good is a plan, now, to drink.
Dalek is offline  
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Dalek For This Useful Post:
freshstart57 (08-25-2012), MeredithD1 (08-26-2012), ReadyAndAble (08-25-2012), RobbyRobot (08-25-2012)
Old 08-25-2012, 02:10 AM
  # 95 (permalink)  
Member
 
MrsKing's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 1,146
Originally Posted by ReadyAndAble View Post
Never, when applied to drinking, is the most comforting word I know.
So true!
MrsKing is offline  
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to MrsKing For This Useful Post:
MeredithD1 (08-26-2012), ReadyAndAble (08-25-2012), RobbyRobot (08-25-2012)
Old 08-26-2012, 09:58 PM
  # 96 (permalink)  
Present
 
MeredithD1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: "Happy Rock" (Gladstone) Oregon
Posts: 1,360
Blog Entries: 4
I feel better about everything myself. Thanks for the words on encouraging him, FreshStart57. I have been doing that.

I won't be getting onto my computer or logging in to SR very much until mid-late September, starting this coming Friday. I will check in when I can and look forward to more that we have to share. With Love, Meredith
MeredithD1 is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to MeredithD1 For This Useful Post:
freshstart57 (08-30-2012), ReadyAndAble (08-27-2012)
Old 08-30-2012, 07:00 PM
  # 97 (permalink)  
Life Goes On
 
Obladi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Baltimore, Maryland
Posts: 5,425
Blog Entries: 9
I've been drinking to shut myself up, but I find that I have been leaking out around the edges lately... and I like it. I like that I am rebelling against it's desire to shut me up and that I have this self-preservation instinct that is saying, "No no no no. I am not willing to shut up! I have every right to be who I am, to want what I want, and you don't get to be in charge, because you're whacked, man."

Closer and closer....
Being free of the whims of the beast is so close I can just about taste it.

I know it's lame, but I think I'm about ready for a little plan. With the notion that the little plan will lead me to the Big one. Yes yes I know this is AV all over me, but give me a sec.
Obladi is offline  
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Obladi For This Useful Post:
freshstart57 (08-30-2012), ReadyAndAble (08-30-2012), RobbyRobot (08-31-2012), waterwagon (07-31-2013)
Old 08-30-2012, 09:54 PM
  # 98 (permalink)  
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: San Diego
Posts: 4,450
Yep, a lot of AV in there. I'm glad you see it, Obladi. I agree; you're getting closer. Very close. It's good to see.

You can take as much time as you want. I don't think I could hurry anyone along if I tried. I think people have to jump into this; pulling them doesn't seem to work.

However, I would ask you to ponder something: What exactly are you reluctant to give up? What so great about drinking—not idealized fantasies about drinking, but the actual realities of your drinking—that you'd let it hold you back?

Or maybe it's the fear of sobriety? I can tell you what I envisioned. Boredom, No. 1. And sleepless nights. Stress, irritability... on and on.

Turns out that was just another pack of lies from you-know-who. Early on, I experienced some insomnia, boredom, and anxiety. Makes sense. I was acclimating and in the awkward stage of learning new habits, finding new grooves. But it didn't last. Today I sleep better, look better, have more fun, and am way less stressed. What's not to love?

Ever notice that recovered people will usually say they have just one regret? They wish they'd done it sooner. Have you ever heard anyone say they wish they'd waited?

There is no reason for you to hesitate. No reason to entertain half measures. You know who loves them? Your Beast. Because half measures leave your addiction in complete control.

Nothing can hurry you along. But there's nothing that can prevent you, either, from starting your new life today.
ReadyAndAble is offline  
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to ReadyAndAble For This Useful Post:
DarkDays (09-02-2012), Dee74 (08-30-2012), freshstart57 (08-30-2012), Lenina (08-30-2012), RobbyRobot (08-31-2012)
Old 09-01-2012, 09:10 AM
  # 99 (permalink)  
Life Goes On
 
Obladi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Baltimore, Maryland
Posts: 5,425
Blog Entries: 9
Originally Posted by ReadyAndAble View Post
What exactly are you reluctant to give up? What so great about drinking—not idealized fantasies about drinking, but the actual realities of your drinking—that you'd let it hold you back?

Or maybe it's the fear of sobriety?
Good question.

What I have been doing with limited "success" is silencing myself from fully communicating my worries, frustrations and dissatisfaction to my SO. This has done nothing to make things with him any better, but it has been a strategy to prevent me from being a bother. I expect a whole lot less from him while drinking than I would sober.

I don't want to get into all of that here, but did want to answer the question for myself as much as for anyone else. Which is certainly why you asked.

One thing I will say is that when looking at this from the perspective of AVRT, it would seem that while I love my SO with all of my heart, I think AV actually needs him.
Obladi is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Obladi For This Useful Post:
ReadyAndAble (09-01-2012), RobbyRobot (09-01-2012)
Old 09-01-2012, 10:34 AM
  # 100 (permalink)  
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: San Diego
Posts: 4,450
Thanks, Obladi.

I think your AV just needs one thing; everything else is just a means to that end.

I am divorced, and not an ideal source of relationship advice. But the biggest lesson I took away was the importance of keeping communication lines open, so all the little things aren't allowed to add up to one big thing. Your addiction wants you to bottle it up, keep you feeling isolated, you know?

I love my SO with all of my heart
Keeping that in mind should make the discussion of worries and frustrations a lot easier for both of you.

I don't think I've ever heard of a relationship that was improved by alcohol over the long run.
ReadyAndAble is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to ReadyAndAble For This Useful Post:
freshstart57 (09-01-2012), RobbyRobot (09-01-2012)

Currently Active Users Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off




All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:51 AM.