Obladi

What lazy phrasing on my part.

I am under no illusion that drinking is improving our relationship. It's keeping things at a stalemate, at best.

What I should have said is "The beast is happy to take any opportunity to turn any weakness to it's advantage. So my AV says 'Relationships are hard and this one is a doozy - drinking will make you not care.' "

freshstart57

Obladi, I think I relate to what you are saying here. Tell me if my experience is similar to yours.
While drinking and reaching extremes of anxiety, anger, frustration on a regular basis, I drank to numb these feelings to an extent, partly because my SO, bless her, was not capable nor did she deserve to deal with this miserable aspect of me. Instead of opening communication, I stuffed it shut because my guilt made it hard to ask for support, especially when I has behaving badly towards her. So, I expected less of her, and I demanded less of her while passed on on the couch.

In early sobriety, I was afraid to re-engage, I was afraid to open the bottle of stored emotions. Most of these feelings were alcohol induced, and became much more manageable without alcohol. I have also returned to that self that could have these open and frank discussions again in a supportive and mindful manner, so that is a good thing too.

It has really turned out better than expected.

My rational self says that relationships are hard, yes, but soooooo much easier without the added struggle of alcohol. I can be real, and present, and supporting her now. That's what partnerships are, I guess.

ReadyAndAble

Thanks, Obladi. Your follow-up post made the separation between you and your AV clearer to me; it's great that you're so in tune to it. I've been impressed how quickly you and some other folks have been to pick up that ability. It took me a bit longer to get there.

You and Freshstart have me thinking about all the relationships that were impacted while I was drinking. Mostly in subtle ways, without anyone knowing the true cause. I kept the world at a distance to protect my dark secret.

Obladi

Fresh, maybe similar, but I have the morally superior ground of having been deeply wounded by SO. I say this with irony though it's also absolutely true. What is also true is that no one, including Mr SO, deserves to deal with "the miserable aspect of me." This "me" that was born many decades ago and is ripe (overly so) for transformation to just... me.

Peta

Subtle AV

Hi guys

Am working through some relationship problems, partly consequences of when I was drinking and partly just dealing with my own bad behaviour (drinking or otherwise) but nevertheless had a very crafty AV attack last night that while entirely dumb (I could see because IT suggested the future use of alcohol it was AV) IT was still drawing on my intelligence, information that had been available to me in the past etc

I was reaidng something about how real love is not about finding the right person but loving someone in the right way

The AV suggested that this sounded awfully like some of Bill Wilson's writings RE alturistic love etc and if that was right then AA had to be right too and therefore why don't you drink for a few days and then go back to AA

crazy hey

freshstart57

Your AV has blinders on. Altruistic love is not a new idea. Gandhi, Buddha, the Dalai Lama, and Jesus have all said it better I would think. Tell your AV to get out more.

And yes, 'why don't you have a drink, you can always go back' is AV of the purest form. You can be sure that if the advice from your AV would keep you sober, it wouldn't give it to you. Good catch there.

Dalek

This is not uncommon, and I've heard such AV myself. If you were in the rooms for any significant amount of time, your AV is probably going to pump the 12-Step program at you, and will use the ubiquitous availability of AA as a causal pathway to the bottle. This is exactly what it did here, and it will continue to do so as long as you keep AA as a 'backup plan'.

Your previous posts indicate fairly clearly that you want out from AA, and AVRT provides an elegant way to do that. You simply make a Big Plan for AA, i.e., "I will never attend AA again, and I will never change my mind," and then recognize any ideas of going back to AA as the Addictive Voice itself. Your Beast will throw a fit, but it works like a charm.

Obladi

I had a similar experience this morning.

Making coffee and deliberating about whether maybe I should make a full pot this time instead of a half. The thought occurs to me - "Perhaps those AA folks drink so much coffee because it gives them a little buzz. Nothing compared to being drunk, of course, but at least it's a buzz."

Immediately wondered if this thought came from AV, but let that question come and go.
Made a half pot.

I think my Beast was scoffing at 'those AA people' and their 'pitiful substitutes' and at the same time was trying to lead me down the path of being "just the same."

Rude.

ReadyAndAble

Interesting, I said to myself, as I took another sip of coffee...

RobbyRobot

Yeah, those AA people, eh?!!

heh heh heh.

Morning Glory

Reminder: AA is off topic on this forum.

Obladi

Sorry, no disrespect intended on my part.
I think my AV was incredibly rude, seriously.
Whatever works, works.

Obladi

I do not know how to NOT talk back to AV.
I recognize It, I acknowledge It as the voice of the Beast.
Earlier today, I was very firm and It cowered.
But as practiced AVRTers know, the Beast is crafty and ruthless.
Needling at me all afternoon and evening, every time I was driving from here to there (which was a fair amount).
Yesterday was "easier," just holed up at home and refusing to go anywhere.
But this seems like a cowardly answer.

I want to say "NO. Be still."
But this is engaging It, is it not?
Share, please.
Someone said something along the lines of "There's nothing like being alone with the AV and a blank wall," as if this was fun (?). Help me out here?

ReadyAndAble

I guess part of the idea of the blank wall is to use mindfulness, to study how you respond to AV. How are your breathing? Do you feel tension in certain places? (I'm a clenched-jaw type myself).

But I think there's also a bit of swagger to it. Remember, one of the techniques is to crank your confidence up to 100%. What's more confident than calling out to the Beast, mocking him, asking him if we wants to come out to play?

I dunno. I have no wish to torment the poor guy. Or even to try to shush him. He's just doing what Beasts do. He's like Gollum, in Lord of the Rings. Can't help himself, really. I strive for acceptance. AV is like a rainy day. I may not like it, but it's nothing to fear. I expect it from time to time. No big deal. It passes by and is forgotten soon enough.

freshstart57

Absolutely, I believe any struggle with the Beast is engaging it. The whole idea that you need to struggle with the AV to defeat it gives it a legitimacy it doesn't merit, and the idea that we need to fight the AV is AV in itself.

You do not need to struggle with it, struggling only empowers it. It is only necessary that you recognize it, and accept it. Once you do that, it loses its power to threaten your will. I am fond of laughing and pointing at it too. Jerk.

You betcha. That might have been about how he came to a private understanding of his AV and his Big Plan long before he had heard anything about RR and AVRT. I can't find the direct quote tho. It happened to me that way, I think. It describes very well the moment when I made my choice to take responsibility, to choose to believe that I could quit, and to make the resolution to not drink anymore. I made the decision that I would separate from the urge to drink, to accept it but ignore it.

So, I think the quote meant that there is nothing like that situation for discovering AVRT on your own, by yourself. It's not surprising at all that this happens to lots of people because AVRT is taken from the reports of the self recovered. I think that is why it works so well.

RobbyRobot

AV is any thought or feeling which goes against your Big Plan. You can see AV for what it is by the contrast. That contrast is the point of recognition of YOUR AV.

Its not so much the voice of the Beast, really. The Beast is addiction desire. It uses your thoughts against you in a manner to hide its true nature, which is to satisfy its addictive desire ie get you to drink alcohol.

Giving the Beast the status of an entity, with its own voice, and its own cleverness, is eventually going to be a problem, simply because you'll end up feeling your powerless to engage the Beast since you're not suppose to engage your Beast, lol. A viscious circle of denial. Feeling powerless or helpless against your Beast is itself AV.

AVRT works because we can separate from our addictive desire, and the thoughts, and feelings, which are part of the process of that addictive desire. The Beast and all the AV in the world can't get any body drunk, that is the simple truth, and its how and why the Big Plan works so well.

The Beast is not my enemy, it is not my friend. The Beast is a sick maladaptive addictive desire. AV is not some other mind or entity slowly outsmarting me, lol, my AV is simply my own thoughts which go against my Big Plan. AV is an entirely normal process...

In the separation process, we realize that addictive desire and thoughts are not sufficient in themselves to get a person drunk... it still requires physical action of picking up that drink. The Beast and AV have no physical existence -- they can not for the life of themselves actually get anybody drunk.

This is a critical understanding.

We don't want to engage our Beast because there is no reason to argue with something that is all bluff and bravado, smoke and mirrors, etc. Why waste our time? The Beast is a dumbass, and my AV is no smarter than my Big Plan in any case, either.

So, I rule, and my Beast drools.

Obladi

Thank you.

Dalek

Except that Obladi has not made a Big Plan, so she will have difficulty seeing this contrast. Still undecided about whether or not she wants to keep drinking, the inner debate ("should I or shouldn't I") will probably continue unabated. Just the way it works.

A couple of technical points...

Beast is the desire for pleasure produced by alcohol and other drugs.

Addictive Voice is the expression of that desire in your thoughts and feelings.

Addictive Voice is not the same thing as Beast.

AV is to Beast as bark is to dog.

Just as "bark" is not the same as "dog", AV is not the same as Beast.

Other recovery paradigms don't generally make this distinction, between the desire and the expression of that desire, but AVRT does, and this distinction can help in separating from the Beast.

The Beast may bark, and I can hear that bark, but I can recognize the source (the Beast) as being "out there" somewhere, just as I would recognize a dog being "out there" somewhere if I heard a dog bark in the middle of the night but couldn't actually see the dog.

Precisely. I may hear the Beast barking, but have you ever talked back to a barking dog? It usually leads to the dog barking some more to puff itself up in response, especially if it your 'bark' wasn't very forceful and the dog senses weakness. The Beast works the same way, and talking back to the AV will usually only make the Beast bark some more.

In AVRT, "white knuckling" is debating with the AV.

Dalek

Don't argue, don't debate, don't give it little answers.

You haven't made a Big Plan, Obladi, so this debate is likely going to continue, because at best, you are thinking "Yes, the Beast wants me to drink, but maybe I want to drink too? I never decided I wouldn't."

You are afraid of the Beast, and are trying to silence the AV, which can't be done. You fear that if the Beast will not stop barking, that you will succumb to its demands. The problem is, every time you respond, you encourage it, and like an encouraged dog, it just keeps barking, expecting that you will eventually get tired of debating and drink.

Your Beast is a master of disguises and illusion, Obladi, and it is puffing itself up to intimidate you. The Beast is only a bodily desire without the means to fulfill itself, and once you understand this, you will not be afraid of it.

Stare it down and lay the matter bare. Next time your Beast barks for a drink, try telling it you'll drink if it can wiggle your fingers. Promise it truckloads of booze if it can just move your fingers. Look at your hands while doing this.

BTW, have you read the "RR: The New Cure" book?

Dalek

People like to say this, but with AVRT, it would be more accurate to say that nothing works, but that anyone can quit. By "works", people usually mean that the desire to get drunk/high is removed, but AVRT makes no such promise, and if you think AVRT "works" in this fashion, you may be disappointed.