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Old 04-07-2013, 09:12 AM
  # 341 (permalink)  
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AVRT could be successfully used for both, but at no point did I see anything in me that i might conceivably call smokism.

Exactly. There is no "ism" to your addiction to nicotine, but there is an "ism" to your alcohol addiction? The substance or DOC makes a difference? Not for me.



yes, i know, soberlicious, it's not so for you. you've made it amply clear.

and no, there is no "ism" to my alcohol addiction per se. my alcohol addiction is not synonymous with my alcoholism. i'm not addicted to alcohol now, and haven't been for ages.
and yes, i still have alcoholism.
and yes, i know how that sounds to those not sharing even an inkling of the sense that makes to me now.
and the reason i know that is because i "argued" just like you, convincingly and logically and rationally, against the "ism" part.
but in my quieter times, when i took the time to listen to the stuff that was said at times about the "ism" i so dismissed, and took the courage i needed to look if that "belief" found any matching receptors in me of my own experience...yes. i "went there".

see, i think about how GT started this part of the thread, by something along the lines of ooh hadn't anyone else noticed the glaring contradiction in R's statements and ...sorry, not looking it up right now, but along those lines.

yes, of course i had noticed that it seemed like glaring contradiction. and when i see that, i think hmm...what is it i'm not getting when a smart guy puts stuff out there that seems like a glaring contradiction? i assume it's NOT, because the poster wouldn't NOT see that.
so i leave it and see if i can figure it out. if i can't, i ask questions with the intention of getting help to understand how that person views what seems contradictory.

seems not so much use to do anything else if we're wanting to understand each other and our different "sobriety-ways".

but i'll read on now. baaaad habit to respond to posts without reading further on first. maybe
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Old 04-07-2013, 09:20 AM
  # 342 (permalink)  
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Old 04-07-2013, 09:21 AM
  # 343 (permalink)  
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Great topic all its own Fini, the "ism" aspect of the thing, the restless, irritable, discontent and all of that good stuff. Are these issues a big chunk of the planet have to deal with whether they drink or not or are they part of the addiction itself, or is the addiction little more than an unhealthy coping mechanism?

BTSO,

i think there's wide variety everywhere. and no, i don't believe there's an "alcoholic personality" as such.
but oddly (or maybe not ), i have some of those traits, and when i quit, i did think they'd all just mostly go away, that i'd automatically be less easily irritated, less easily angered, that kind of stuff. and a tiny bit of that happened automatically.
i read the Gabor Mate book "in the realm of the hungry ghost", and think he has a lot of convincing stuff to say about contributors to the addictions and "ism" and coping mechanisms and childhood conditions and...yes, good stuff there. a lot resonated when i read it.
but still, i do not feel it can sufficiently "explain" my "ism".
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Old 04-07-2013, 09:26 AM
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Old 04-07-2013, 09:32 AM
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Old 04-07-2013, 09:47 AM
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Old 04-07-2013, 10:28 AM
  # 347 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by fini View Post
[COLOR="Blue"]if i understand correctly, we're not talking about conflicting beliefs, or apples and oranges, which are both fruits, same category.
the AA sobriety and AVRT are different categories, nothing to compare. one is a tool, the other a "belief", if you will.
Well, AA calls itself a program of recovery. Belief in God is part of the program, but the belief aspect is just part of the entire program, or what I would call tool.

Originally Posted by fini View Post
for myself, i have come to "believe" that yes, there is such a thing as alcoholism, yes, i have it, and it doesn't have terrifically much to do with the drinking of alcohol.
Then why do you call it alcoholism??? Perhaps I'm a compulsive gambler, but I just don't know it because I don't gamble, and gambling doesn't have terrifically much to do with that particular ism either? When you replace alcohol with any other addictive substance or activity, it sounds ridiculous. Why does alcohol get awarded this superstitious, magical quality?

I think this confusing talk of teetotalers who label themselves alcoholics could be cleared up if we used more accurate language. Perhaps you are simply prone to compulsions or have an addictive nature or, like much of humanity, you are just not comfortable in your own skin. Why bring alcohol into it if by your own admission it doesn't have much to do with it?
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Old 04-07-2013, 12:45 PM
  # 348 (permalink)  
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Well I had a long post typed out and lost it.
The gist of it was, I do not think it is a necessity to believe everything or practice each technique to say you have used AVRT or AA to maintain sobriety. Of course if you decide that is the way that works best for you and making a healthy life, that's awesome.

I just don't see it as black and white like calling myself a "Christian Atheist". I look at it more like someone who believes in a higher power and not organized religion.

Soberlicious, I do know I was preaching to the choir And I see no difference between "my life" and "my sober life". I just chose sober life to define after 5/12/12.

As far as taking communion when I'm in a church, I agree, I don't do it. Nor have I picked up a 10 month chip yet at AA.

Calling myself alcoholic...problematic. Thinking I can ever have a drink again I know is not a possibility. People have many different words for this. Maybe alcoholic is the right term. I really don't know.

Still searching here...
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Old 04-07-2013, 01:22 PM
  # 349 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by RobbyRobot
You don't actually declare that you use AVRT, as written out in RR, do you? And why is that?
Because I don't like boxes. I don't frequently use popular terms to characterize my political beliefs, my outlook on spirituality, or my sexuality either. I personally embrace aspects of many philosophies, which is exactly why I don't identify as an AAer or AVRTer, and I certainly wouldn't profess to use them simultaneously, but that's just me. For the record, you are not accurate in saying that I think AA is unworkable.

Originally Posted by RobbyRobot
Why should I respect what your saying, about my successful experiences with AA and AVRT, when you're really speaking from a place of inference, and not actually YOUR OWN experiences?
I never asked that you respect me or what I'm saying. I simply asked how you could be forever done with drinking unconditionally, and at the same time, state that without using AA you would, in no uncertain terms, return to drinking. That's all.

As far as sharing my own experiences, my almost 3,000 posts are full of my personal experiences and actually much about my personal life as well.
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Old 04-07-2013, 01:36 PM
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Originally Posted by HitRockBottom70
I just don't see it as black and white like calling myself a "Christian Atheist".
My point with that analogy was this:
If one claims to have a Big Plan and will never drink again, but must rely on working the 12 steps in order to not drink again...that appears to me to be as philosophically opposed as being a Christian Atheist.

That's all I was saying.

Dude.

LOL
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Old 04-07-2013, 01:57 PM
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Actually, this is the one that I usually get all the time LOL

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Old 04-07-2013, 04:25 PM
  # 352 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by soberlicious View Post
I simply asked how you could be forever done with drinking unconditionally, and at the same time, state that without using AA you would, in no uncertain terms, return to drinking. That's all.
AA for me is not about drinking or not. Its only about a working solution for my alcoholism. There are many ways to simply stop drinking unconditionally. AA is loaded with conditions because its not just about quitting drinking. I understand how that works because I have AA sobriety. AA has no conditions for quitting alcohol actually. It's all about life after quitting where the conditions come into play. This is my experiences with AA. You may not agree, or appreciate, or even believe me. What is absolutely clear is you have no personal experience with AA sobriety, so don't tell me how my AA sobriety is or is not experienced in my life. You read some books, met some members, went to some meetings, whatever you did -- you have never met me f2f, and you have no idea of how I experience the differences between just not drinking, and AA sobriety. I'm words on a screen, and unfortunately, you refuse to be open minded about my experiences.

As for just quitting, if one puts their mind to it, to quit drinking, it can be done, end of story. You think just because I also practice AA, that for some reason I can't also just quit drinking?? You do have experience with just quitting, and so do I too. I quit before I started with AA. Read my words, and stop pretending that you somehow have caught me in something that I'm not able to live with truthfully.

I am not just another AA guy, lol. I'm also not just another AVRT guy, either. I have absolutely morphed both into my life so as to give me maximum benefits. I'm at once and the same time both a non-drinker and also AA sober simultaneously. I also have other practices morphed into my not drinking and my spiritual sobriety besides AA and AVRT. All of it has a commonality for me: they have all been tailored to what I want and need, and not just what was originally offered or what I may have originally started with initially.

As for returning to drinking, my alcoholism would come out of remission without my practice of AA program, this is simply being truthful. I'll never change my mind about having my alcoholism, so its a done deal that I practice AA program, or deal with the return to my active alcoholism.

I know people in this thread would/have hung on and not drink for months and perhaps even years, white-knuckling, while their unhappy life went on without alcohol. Not me. It was either drink or don't drink. I didn't ****-a-round wanting to drink and instead be doing something else.

Everyday since July 22, 1981, I didn't want to drink enough to successfully not drink. If I had wanted to drink more then not drink, I would have drank. Period.

The idea that I am being told I'm not making sense from people who themselves have experienced failure with their not stopping drinking, after TRUTHFULLY admitted to themselves they have a drinking problem, and they still have relapsed again and again, is absolutely ridiculous, to me.

I've never failed in quitting alcohol after I admitted to myself I have an alcoholic problem and I must quit or else die drunk. Yes, there were times I certainly moderated between my drinks. Stop and go, sure. But once I honestly, and truthfully accepted I was going to die drunk if I didn't quit, I friggin quit!! That may mean nothing to anybody, but it certainly means something to me.

Yes, others say they were going to die, and so they quit too. Yeah, and many of them also returned to drinking too.

Don't tell me, in so many words, you've been where I've been with not drinking, and with sobriety. We are not the same persons whatsoever. I drank half my life, then successfully quit at 24. I've now been sober and a non-drinker for 30+ years without slipping or stumbling around waiting for my life to catch up to me. My life continues to improve as always since I quit drinking. I don't have stories to share about my life going backwards again after quitting drinking. Its always going forward. I've also got the changed life to back up my claims. I have simply come so far compared to my drinking days, it's absolutely beyond awesome. I'm much more then just a guy who quit drinking one day, and still trying to get a life going. I already have the life.

I don't really care about explaining myself to people who refuse to accept my experiences as they are presented. I accept you have indeed many experiences, soberlicious, but you don't have mine.

What may be impossible for you, and others, is obviously not for me, and hasn't been for decades now, lol.

This thread is starting to be a lousy drag... I've gone over this again and again and again.

WOW.

Believe or don't believe me, but stop with the putting me in the same friggin box that you think is so great for YOU but makes me want to throwup!!

You don't like boxes?

Please.
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Old 04-07-2013, 04:47 PM
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What is the difference between "AA sobriety" and sobriety, besides assenting to AA's disease model of addiction?

AA is not about quitting drinking, but the only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking. One can be forgiven for misunderstanding.

Robby, what you are doing is clearly working for you, but please forgive some of us for seeming a little obtuse given that you yourself say that in order to understand we would have to be in your head and the matter is further complicated by the lexicon.

I keep reading on this thread that Alcoholics Anonymous is not about drinking, that alcoholism and alcoholic illnesses don't have much to do with drinking, etc., ad nauseum. You have to concede that this is at best very confusing. I think it's a gross misuse of language, as evidenced by said confusion.
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Old 04-07-2013, 05:04 PM
  # 354 (permalink)  
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I attended AA faithfully for 8 years and never once heard the term AA Sobriety used.

What IS this elusive AA sobriety?

On one hand you say AA is about QUITTING and AA Sobriety yet later you say AA has nothing to do with quitting.

If it's confusing to me, who attended and worked the program of AA for all those years, I am left to assume a possible new comer could be left extremely confused and vulnerable.

Most important of all, is what I mentioned earlier; What is "AA Sobriety"?
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Old 04-07-2013, 05:12 PM
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Robby,
Is that post an example of AA sobriety?

It appears I may have overstayed my welcome.

xo
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Old 04-07-2013, 06:10 PM
  # 356 (permalink)  
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Hey Robby, juck em if they don't get the foke.

You're obviously successful. How you got there is irrelevant. No wait. it's not. It's really damn important. Whatever it takes to get to sobriety is important. However, whatever.

Your path to sobriety is as important as anyone's. Hell, I haven't found my path, yet. I'll take ANYONE'S experience as tutelage.
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Old 04-07-2013, 06:27 PM
  # 357 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by SoberKnitter View Post
Robby, what you are doing is clearly working for you, but please forgive some of us for seeming a little obtuse given that you yourself say that in order to understand we would have to be in your head and the matter is further complicated by the lexicon.
Yes, working for me. I don't speak for AA. I speak for myself. This has been unappreciated in this thread, my experiences, by the very same people who keep telling me what AA is and isn't to them. I'm not talking about AA. I'm talking about what MY successful practice of AA means to ME. I'm not selling AA. I'm simply sharing MY experiences.

If it is so clear its working for me, then that's the end of it, yeah? I never said this thread is my way to TEACH AA or AVRT. I said it was about MY experiences. MINE.

If somebody can take my experiences and it helps them then great. And if not, too bad. The idea that my experiences are the subject of what is real to others is absolutely wrong. People can share back to me, but I'm either telling it like it is, or am not. If I was a newcomer, I would be devastated. As it is, I'm just pissed off. And hurt too, I must admit.

its not my problem if you don't get what I'm sharing. Just because AA and AVRT are hot topics anyways is no reason to devalue my experiences.

its not just that the subject matter is confusing. Its also about people laying their ideas about AA and AVRT on me, and wanting me to explain what they don't understand for themselves, and way before this thread ever started.

I'm also not responsible for what others are writing or sharing on the thread. I invited people to share, so I have no problem with different opinions and experiences. Its not my problem if other are confused.

I'm doing my best to share my experiences. I'm not interested in the least about others doing what I'm doing. If they want to great, if not great. I don't care either way. People must always find their own path anyways.

Anyways, thanks for saying its obviously working for me. At least that is meeting me half-way, and that is enough for a good discussion.
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Old 04-07-2013, 06:29 PM
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Ouch...'thread gone south' alert? :-)

I consider myself a contributing member of SR, and am mostly drawn to this section Secular Connections. I am drinking again. [Disclaimer, so those who consider an active drinker to be 'not in their right mind' can ignore this post].

My felt responses on this latter part of the thread are this, in no particular order:
- I've had and still have enormous problems with reconciling the both / and approach to AVRT / AA. This has caused me significant inner turmoil, many many times, including right now, today. When I've been sober for long periods AND when returning to drinking. To me, and for me, this dissonance speaks to me of something else going on, in me. Nothingl to do as such with 'isms', 'not-isms', This Way or That Way to achieving what for me might look and feel like 'sobriety'.

- The points made about our different experiences are valid, and they are indeed made that bit harder to fathom when we're trying to use written language somewhat divorced from our ordinary face to face observations of others' daily life.

- Our daily lives, whether drunk (for a short time or long time), sober (for a short time or long time) are going on amidst a host of other internalised forces, influences, simple circumstances, memory-driven background and personal / social histories. It's indeed difficult to distill our responses to this particular issue - in our case, ways of getting and staying sober - without actually a felt knowing of ALL those other factors. The best we can achieve, in a forum such as SR - or even in f2f groups / meetings/ social situations - is a well-intended, yet always incomplete, simulacrum.

- Sometimes, the forensic examination of different ways TO LIVE which in SR includes necessarily ways to Get and Stay Sober / Clean / Free of Addiction and Torment, can in itself be somewhat torturous. By this I mean: many of us who have / had addictions as a force in our lives are prone to a great deal of inner torture. We easily get entangled in seeking The Solution. Once we think we have IT, The Solution, we can readily
want others to know what IT is. That's entirely human.

- 'And? So?' I hear you good readers say. Well, all I can say for now is: for me, it's in that very space of doubting, uncertainty, questioning...where there may be no set menu, as it were, for each individual...that a strange kind of growth continues.
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Old 04-07-2013, 06:36 PM
  # 359 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Received View Post
I attended AA faithfully for 8 years and never once heard the term AA Sobriety used.

What IS this elusive AA sobriety?

On one hand you say AA is about QUITTING and AA Sobriety yet later you say AA has nothing to do with quitting.

If it's confusing to me, who attended and worked the program of AA for all those years, I am left to assume a possible new comer could be left extremely confused and vulnerable.

Most important of all, is what I mentioned earlier; What is "AA Sobriety"?
Like I've said again and again, I am defining what AA sobriety is to me. I don't friggin care if you've never heard about it before or not. Your hearing about it NOW. If you don't agree, say so, and be done with me. Write me off as a whatever, and move on. Don't keep asking me over and over again about this elusive experience for YOU. For me, its all very real!

You attended AA for years, and still ended up drinking. And you want me to do what with that? I believe you returned to drinking, is what I'm doing with it, not a lot of success there for me, okay?

I'm saying AA is about both quitting and sobriety. BOTH. AA is not just about quitting. Or just about sobriety. It is about BOTH together. Doing AA successfully is doing BOTH TOGETHER.

AVRT is only about QUITTING.

There is no way you are being confused by what I'm saying. You don't agree, okay. Confused? NO WAY.
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Old 04-07-2013, 06:44 PM
  # 360 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by soberlicious View Post
Robby,
Is that post an example of AA sobriety?

It appears I may have overstayed my welcome.

xo
Jesus, soberlicious. You just don't get it?!!

That post is an example of MY SOBRIETY. MINE. I have NEVER said I represent MAINSTREAM AA or AVRT. I have always said I take what I need and leave what I don't need. I'm not the AA / AVRT poster child.

You decide for yourself if you have overstayed your welcome. I'm angry and hurt. You want to be else where, fine. You want to stick around, then do so because hanging with me means something to and for you, otherwise, yeah, what is the point of talking with somebody like me except to get to know me, and me get to know you.

This is not a friggin teaching thread. As for newcomers, absolutely they can make up their own minds. They are not helpless.

So much for you don't take things personal, eh?

I understand, no problemo.

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