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Old 04-07-2013, 09:47 PM
  # 381 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by RobbyRobot
Saying my use of failure is undermining is pure projection on your part about my intent.
I don't think so. Bringing up her return to drinking was not relevant to discussion at hand. It appeared to me to be "putting her in her place" and if it appeared that way to me, it's quite possible it appeared that way to others, regardless of your true intent. You can couch it and talk around it anyway you'd like, but the word "failure" does carry a rather negative connotation in our society. You know that, so we don't have to pretend here.

It's really not important to me if you want what I have or don't want it, soberlicious
This isn't about me, Robby. This is about others reading your words as a self-identified member of AA.
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Old 04-07-2013, 09:56 PM
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Robby and Soberlicious,
I started my journey being sober and learning the skills needed from both your post and experience. I can honestly say if you both had not been here on SR, for me to read your ideas and outlooks I may not have made it. You both rock in your own individual ways. We are all different, thank goodness because the world would be a pretty [email protected] boring place otherwise.
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Old 04-07-2013, 09:57 PM
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Originally Posted by soberlicious View Post
I don't think so. Bringing up her return to drinking was not relevant to discussion at hand. It appeared to me to be "putting her in her place" and if it appeared that way to me, it's quite possible it appeared that way to others, regardless of your true intent. You can couch it and talk around it anyway you'd like, but the word "failure" does carry a rather negative connotation in our society. You know that, so we don't have to pretend here.

This isn't about me, Robby. This is about others reading your words as a self-identified member of AA.
Soberlicious, I'm allowed to have an opinion of whatever about whatever, as long as that opinion does not take something away from someone else, leaving them otherwise used and abused by me.

My opinion about others returning to drinking is a fair enough opinion in a recovery thread. A return to drinking is failure in my understanding of what is success in not drinking. It can't be more simple then that.

Your projection that I was "putting her in her place" is absolutely about how you see my opinion, and not about me. Your comments speak more about YOU then they do me.

As for what others are reading, you're not the Gatekeeper, soberlicious. Each person must experience for themselves what is what when they read these threads.

There is no requirement for thought police at SR.
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Old 04-07-2013, 10:00 PM
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Originally Posted by HitRockBottom70 View Post
Robby and Soberlicious,
I started my journey being sober and learning the skills needed from both your post and experience. I can honestly say if you both had not been here on SR, for me to read your ideas and outlooks I may not have made it. You both rock in your own individual ways. We are all different, thank goodness because the world would be a pretty [email protected] boring place otherwise.
Yes, soberlicious does indeed ROCK!!

No worries, HitRockBottom. Just working out some details is all, lol.

Thanks though for the warmth.

YOU ROCK TOO!!
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Old 04-07-2013, 10:03 PM
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Good Robby because I was getting really worried.
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Old 04-07-2013, 10:10 PM
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Originally Posted by HitRockBottom70 View Post
Good Robby because I was getting really worried.
Well, my intent is not to worry you or anyone else, of course. I do have feelings though, and they needed to come out. It may not always be pretty, but I don't play people. I'm a kind of in-your-face- kind of guy, I know, and I'm not always easy to deal with, either.

Should have seen me drunk.

Not good. Way worse.

So, yeah, I'm glad you're less worried, HRB.



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Old 04-07-2013, 10:26 PM
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Originally Posted by RobbyRobot
Soberlicious, I'm allowed to have an opinion of whatever about whatever
As am I. And my opinion is that your out of the blue comment about another member's return to drinking was irrelevant and intended to shut the conversation down.

Your comments speak more about YOU then they do me.
Please, do tell. I bet you can hardly wait to hear what you are going to say.

Each person must experience for themselves what is what when they read these threads.
Thanks for that, Captain Obvious.

Thanks, HRB. I have learned alot from you as well.
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Old 04-07-2013, 10:31 PM
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Originally Posted by soberlicious View Post

Thanks for that, Captain Obvious.

Okay, That right there made me burst out laughing, hahaha.

Awesome!

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Old 04-07-2013, 10:42 PM
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Originally Posted by RobbyRobot
Yes, soberlicious does indeed ROCK!!
As much as I'd like to return this sentiment, I'm suddenly realizing that would be quite disingenuous of me.
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Old 04-07-2013, 10:46 PM
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Might just drop in again.

SoberL's probably referring to me as the 'her' ('putting her in her place') - because I'm currently drinking. Having followed a few of the posts - in this EPIC thread :-) - I want to note:

Robby's use of the term 'failure' does not worry me, nor put me in my place. I understand his point: that IN THE CONTEXT of 'not-drinking' (of which SR is a forum to discuss that), yes, I agree that if one is drinking, ergo, one has failed to not-drink.

The continuation of not-drinking is at the heart of whatever any of us practice, do, implement, tools / programmes / standing-on-heads to that end. As we know, that 'end' is blessedly and logically (no, not a contradiction, just a reality of life's messiness) often indeed 'the end' for some. I for one salute all of you who have continued a non-drinking life. Robby, SoberL, Fresh, gee, heaps of others here on SR and those we all know of in our daily lives.

I take no umbrage whatsoever that drinking (again) could be rightly seen as a failure. In fact, I believe that RR / Trimpey's view on the matter is 'a reversal of intent' (to not-drink). I don't agree wholly with all of the RR / AVRT thesis, if you care to call it that; just as I don't agree wholly - in fact, even rather less - with most of the AA thesis (if you care to call it that) - about how to stop drinking and how to stay stopped. But I do know, in my own experience, that yes, in this context of the thread: I have had a 'reversal of intent'. There's really no other way to put it.

Someone such as Robby - AND those who are nothing like Robby - have stuck to whatever guns in their / your impressive arsenal in order to stay stopped. To not have that reversal of intent. And I say 'not have', not in a passive but an active sense.

I still believe that threads like this one, along with so many others on SR and elsewhere, are potentially helpful for others whilst they think about what is at stake for themselves.

What is at stake for any of us is entirely unique to each of us. Speaking personally, what is at stake for my life seems to change slightly every day. For others, it works better to have some central tenet of certainty. (And no, I'm not suddenly going all post-modern - been there, did that, back in my academic days and saw that post-modern / relativism can itself become a dogma, an 'ism', if you will).

But, we each are trying to live our small lives, here on this tiny planet. (I think it was BacktoSquareOne ? who wrote a very short but eloquent piece on this recently?). When thinking on that....well.

The final verse of the Diamond Sutra brings me back to earth:

'Thus shall you think of all this fleeting world:
A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream;
A flash of lightning in a summer cloud,
A flickering lamp, a phantom, a dream'.

Kinda scary stuff in some ways, but it helps me when getting too caught up in all our differences.
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Old 04-07-2013, 10:59 PM
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Originally Posted by RobbyRobot View Post
No one person or interpretation speaks for AA. We each can safely and without penalty have our own way of experiencing the AA program.
Obviously everyone's individual experience of anything is particular to each person, but it's the articulation of your experience that is confusing.

Identifying with an organization brings with it some fair assumptions. You say you are a Christian, so it's fair to assume that you have some basic beliefs best summed up in the Nicene Creed. I'm a member of a vegan organization, so it's fair to assume that I don't eat meat. Labeling your sobriety "AA sobriety" brings assumptions as well - or else why the label - but you seem to take issue with any that are expressed.

For example, I still don't think you've plainly stated, if you've stated it at all, what the H-E-double-hockey-sticks distinguishes "AA sobriety" from regular old sobriety! All this talk of individual experiences that can't be articulated and undefinable aspects only serve to muddy the already nearly opaque waters.

I guess it comes down to this: What you are doing works for you and you are happy with it, you quit drinking, you have "AA sobriety" as opposed to mere sobriety resulting from quitting, but you can't clearly say what you are doing or what "AA sobriety" is. Do you understand how this might be a tad confusing?
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Old 04-07-2013, 11:05 PM
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Thanks for all that ownership, Victoria (bemyself). You're always giving, and I want you to know I appreciate all that "giveness" you gracefully give. Did I mention you're graceful?

I also am thinking perhaps Soberlicious meant my opinion of Received's earlier posts to me of a few hours ago, if I'm not mistaken.

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Old 04-07-2013, 11:09 PM
  # 393 (permalink)  
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Maybe a thread on the secular AA section would allow the steps of AA sobriety to be explained and give a better understanding of how you and others are working them.
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Old 04-07-2013, 11:11 PM
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Oh, cripes - so it wasn't all about me, then?
Lol.

Anyway, my points still stand. Or fall. On their own merits.
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Old 04-07-2013, 11:14 PM
  # 395 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by SoberKnitter View Post
I guess it comes down to this: What you are doing works for you and you are happy with it, you quit drinking, you have "AA sobriety" as opposed to mere sobriety resulting from quitting, but you can't clearly say what you are doing or what "AA sobriety" is. Do you understand how this might be a tad confusing?
Of course I can clearly state what I am doing, and what is meant by AA sobriety, and I've done it many times already, from what I am reading. I assure you, I'm not making this up as I go, lol.

It's late here now, and I'm tired, so I'll again re-state myself in the morning here in Ottawa.

I'll see if I can be more clear then I have been before. I truly do not want to create confusion.

I'm sure I can get this across in a way that is at least not making things worse, lol.

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Old 04-07-2013, 11:17 PM
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Goodnight Robby.
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Old 04-07-2013, 11:17 PM
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Originally Posted by soberlicious View Post
As much as I'd like to return this sentiment, I'm suddenly realizing that would be quite disingenuous of me.
Awesome. I can easily have ton's of respect for that honest and genuine realization. Been there many times myself, too, in other circumstances.

Have a good night, soberlicious.
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Old 04-07-2013, 11:19 PM
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Thanks everyone!!

Good night.

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Old 04-07-2013, 11:21 PM
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HRB, good suggestion...

But: I vaguely recall (from 300+ posts back) that Robby's original purpose on this thread was merely to chat about how he - somehow, in his particular life - stayed sober using both AVRT and AA.

I think that was the original purpose? [And then we get back to the whole conundrum - which exists mostly in a logic-driven world of philosophical method: 'but the two things are at odds'!]

Yeah, and that's my point too: pretty much everything in life is at odds. We have to find a way to chat about such matters. I often think of the inter-faith movement around the world, where good people are trying to both stay with their differences whilst also remaining open to how others think.
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Old 04-08-2013, 08:02 AM
  # 400 (permalink)  
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SoberKnitter,

i'm okay with the term alcoholism because i'm okay with what it describes, the condition/disorder it talks about. (inner turmoil is not a disorder, imo). the word, therefore, doesn't much matter to me.

what matters to me is that it refers to something rather different from alcohol addiction.

there is no "smokism" because smoking was about the substance.

as far as AA and god, i shouldn't talk, as i don't "do" AA.
i'm thinking about doing AA.
i've been thinking about it for two or three years, read a bunch of books, been to a couple dozen meetings, talked about it with some people, trying to see how i could without violating myself, so to speak.
clearly , since i haven't done it yet, i'm grappling with something.
and i'll have to keep working on that.
but that's not fodder for this thread.
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