Blogs


Notices

Robby's Thread

Old 04-05-2013, 07:05 PM
  # 301 (permalink)  
Adventures In SpaceTime
Thread Starter
 
RobbyRobot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,827
Think space-time, GT. It's the real thing nowadays. Check it out.
RobbyRobot is offline  
Old 04-06-2013, 08:04 AM
  # 302 (permalink)  
Member
 
fini's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: canada
Posts: 7,134
GT and RR,

aren't you simply pointing out the difference between abstinence and sobriety?
which one of you sees because he knows it exists and the other doesn't because he knows it doesn't?


don't hit me!!
fini is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to fini For This Useful Post:
RobbyRobot (04-06-2013)
Old 04-06-2013, 09:26 AM
  # 303 (permalink)  
Member
 
SoberKnitter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Texas
Posts: 177
I'm confused. It seems to me that AVRT and AA start being mutually exclusive at step 1...
SoberKnitter is offline  
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to SoberKnitter For This Useful Post:
Received (04-06-2013), RobbyRobot (04-06-2013), soberlicious (04-06-2013)
Old 04-06-2013, 09:37 AM
  # 304 (permalink)  
Adventures In SpaceTime
Thread Starter
 
RobbyRobot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,827
Originally Posted by SoberKnitter View Post
I'm confused. It seems to me that AVRT and AA start being mutually exclusive at step 1...
What are you confused about? For me, AA begins where AVRT ends, so to speak. AVRT is simply about QUITTING. AA is about QUITTING and AA SOBRIETY.

Differences absolutely exist between AA experiences and AVRT results.
RobbyRobot is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to RobbyRobot For This Useful Post:
Ajax (04-11-2013)
Old 04-06-2013, 09:39 AM
  # 305 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: "I'm not lost for I know where I am. But however, where I am may be lost ..."
Posts: 5,272
I agree SK, and I brought it up way back on pg 7 of this thread. Seems analogous to me trying to convince everyone that I am a Christian Atheist.

Anyone ever see the the opening to the movie "The Jerk" where Steve Martin says, "I was born a poor black child."? For some reason this discussion reminds me of that...
soberlicious is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to soberlicious For This Useful Post:
jkb (04-08-2013), Received (04-06-2013)
Old 04-06-2013, 10:21 AM
  # 306 (permalink)  
Adventures In SpaceTime
Thread Starter
 
RobbyRobot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,827
Another brick in the wall thing, eh?

It's not about convincing anyone of anything, for me. It's about sharing real experiences. I suppose I could choose to make like a doormat and simply become disingenuous... hahaha.

Not. Likely. <GRIN>

Some of these backward backhanded discussions bring me to thinking about that great Bob Dylan song:

"Positively 4th Street Blues"

You got a lotta nerve
To say you are my friend
When I was down
You just stood there grinning

You got a lotta nerve
To say you got a helping hand to lend
You just want to be on
The side that's winning

You say I let you down
You know it's not like that
If you're so hurt
Why then don't you show it

You say you lost your faith
But that's not where it's at
You had no faith to lose
And you know it

I know the reason
That you talk behind my back
I used to be among the crowd
You're in with

Do you take me for such a fool
To think I'd make contact
With the one who tries to hide
What he don't know to begin with

You see me on the street
You always act surprised
You say, "How are you?" "Good luck"
But you don't mean it

When you know as well as me
You'd rather see me paralyzed
Why don't you just come out once
And scream it

No, I do not feel that good
When I see the heartbreaks you embrace
If I was a master thief
Perhaps I'd rob them

And now I know you're dissatisfied
With your position and your place
Don't you understand
It's not my problem

I wish that for just one time
You could stand inside my shoes
And just for that one moment
I could be you

Yes, I wish that for just one time
You could stand inside my shoes
You'd know what a drag it is
To see you
RobbyRobot is offline  
Old 04-06-2013, 10:32 AM
  # 307 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: "I'm not lost for I know where I am. But however, where I am may be lost ..."
Posts: 5,272
I was just making an observation from my POV. It wasn't meant to stir of any feelings of melancholy angst.
soberlicious is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to soberlicious For This Useful Post:
RobbyRobot (04-06-2013)
Old 04-06-2013, 10:35 AM
  # 308 (permalink)  
Member
 
SoberKnitter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Texas
Posts: 177
Originally Posted by RobbyRobot View Post
What are you confused about? For me, AA begins where AVRT ends, so to speak. AVRT is simply about QUITTING. AA is about QUITTING and AA SOBRIETY.

Differences absolutely exist between AA experiences and AVRT results.
I guess I just don't get the difference between regular, vanilla sobriety and this nebulous "AA Sobriety".

Step 1 would seem to undermine the whole basis for AVRT. The rest of the steps would require some serious mental gymnastics in order to reconcile them with it.
SoberKnitter is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to SoberKnitter For This Useful Post:
Received (04-06-2013), soberlicious (04-06-2013)
Old 04-06-2013, 10:37 AM
  # 309 (permalink)  
Adventures In SpaceTime
Thread Starter
 
RobbyRobot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,827
Originally Posted by soberlicious View Post
I was just making an observation from my POV. It wasn't meant to stir of any feelings of melancholy angst.
Hey, I know that. Hmmm. I know you don't take things personally...

RobbyRobot is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to RobbyRobot For This Useful Post:
soberlicious (04-06-2013)
Old 04-06-2013, 10:43 AM
  # 310 (permalink)  
Adventures In SpaceTime
Thread Starter
 
RobbyRobot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,827
Originally Posted by SoberKnitter View Post
I guess I just don't get the difference between regular, vanilla sobriety and this nebulous "AA Sobriety".

Step 1 would seem to undermine the whole basis for AVRT. The rest of the steps would require some serious mental gymnastics in order to reconcile them with it.
I've always affirmed that AVRT and AA do not play well together. They cannot be reconciled to each other, imo.

AVRT is a thinking technique. AA is a program of recovery. The differences between the two are important and distinct.

Just quitting drinking and getting on with your life is surely different then just quitting drinking and getting on with your life whilst also embracing your alcoholic illness.

There is absolutely no requirement to have them reconciled with each other, imo.
RobbyRobot is offline  
Old 04-06-2013, 10:48 AM
  # 311 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: "I'm not lost for I know where I am. But however, where I am may be lost ..."
Posts: 5,272
Just quitting drinking and getting on with your life is surely different then just quitting drinking and getting on with your life whilst also embracing your alcoholic illness.
One would have to believe in the alcoholic illness in order to compare.
soberlicious is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to soberlicious For This Useful Post:
RobbyRobot (04-06-2013)
Old 04-06-2013, 10:53 AM
  # 312 (permalink)  
Adventures In SpaceTime
Thread Starter
 
RobbyRobot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,827
Originally Posted by soberlicious View Post
One would have to believe in the alcoholic illness in order to compare.
Yes. That is indeed the way of it, if we want real life comparisons.




Still though, we can still have real discussions of obvious worth since sharing from different experiences does not invalidate our own experiences.
RobbyRobot is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to RobbyRobot For This Useful Post:
Ajax (04-11-2013)
Old 04-06-2013, 10:57 AM
  # 313 (permalink)  
Member
 
SoberKnitter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Texas
Posts: 177
Originally Posted by RobbyRobot View Post
Just quitting drinking and getting on with your life is surely different then just quitting drinking and getting on with your life whilst also embracing your alcoholic illness.
Okay, there's the rub. Yeah, I don't know what an alcoholic illness is, and if I thought I had it, I wouldn't embrace it. Perhaps accept it, but not embrace it.

Originally Posted by RobbyRobot View Post
There is absolutely no requirement to have them reconciled with each other, imo.
There's no requirement, sure, but doesn't holding such conflicting beliefs cause cognitive dissonance?
SoberKnitter is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to SoberKnitter For This Useful Post:
Received (04-06-2013)
Old 04-06-2013, 11:14 AM
  # 314 (permalink)  
Adventures In SpaceTime
Thread Starter
 
RobbyRobot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,827
Originally Posted by SoberKnitter View Post
Okay, there's the rub. Yeah, I don't know what an alcoholic illness is, and if I thought I had it, I wouldn't embrace it. Perhaps accept it, but not embrace it.

There's no requirement, sure, but doesn't holding such conflicting beliefs cause cognitive dissonance?
Hmm.

Cognitive dissonance refers to a situation involving conflicting attitudes, beliefs or behaviors. This produces a feeling of discomfort leading to an alteration in one of the attitudes, beliefs or behaviors to reduce the discomfort and restore balance etc.
If your meaning is inline with the above definition, then I'm not experiencing discomfort, and certainly I'm not lead to alter myself so as to accommodate both AVRT and AA.

My AA beliefs have no remarkable opinion, if you will, on my AVRT results. My practice of AVRT absolutely treats my embracement of my alcoholic illness as pure Addictive Voice, as is totally expected when using AVRT.

Other then that distinction, no problemo.

RobbyRobot is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to RobbyRobot For This Useful Post:
Ajax (04-11-2013)
Old 04-06-2013, 11:20 AM
  # 315 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: "I'm not lost for I know where I am. But however, where I am may be lost ..."
Posts: 5,272
Originally Posted by RobbyRobot
Yes. That is indeed the way of it, if we want real life comparisons.
As opposed to un-real life experiences?

Originally Posted by SoberKnitter
There's no requirement, sure, but doesn't holding such conflicting beliefs cause cognitive dissonance?
Even more important for the newcomer to understand, beyond cognitive dissonance, is the possibility that such conflicting beliefs can also "feed the beast".
soberlicious is offline  
Old 04-06-2013, 11:28 AM
  # 316 (permalink)  
Adventures In SpaceTime
Thread Starter
 
RobbyRobot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,827
Originally Posted by soberlicious View Post
As opposed to un-real life experiences?

Even more important for the newcomer to understand, beyond cognitive dissonance, is the possibility that such conflicting beliefs can also "feed the beast".
AVRT is not a belief, its simply a thinking technique. As for "feeding the beast" yeah, one embracing the belief of having an alcoholic illness absolutely eternally feeds IT.
RobbyRobot is offline  
Old 04-06-2013, 11:41 AM
  # 317 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: "I'm not lost for I know where I am. But however, where I am may be lost ..."
Posts: 5,272
AVRT is not a belief, its simply a thinking technique.
Believing that a supernatural deity can keep me from putting alcohol in my body is also a thinking technique.

Please enlighten me as to your take on the semantic differences in "belief" and "thinking technique", although I'm not sure why such a distinction is necessary.
soberlicious is offline  
Old 04-06-2013, 11:42 AM
  # 318 (permalink)  
Member
 
SoberKnitter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Texas
Posts: 177
Originally Posted by RobbyRobot View Post
If your meaning is inline with the above definition, then I'm not experiencing discomfort, and certainly I'm not lead to alter myself so as to accommodate both AVRT and AA.
I was referring to the discomfort that people, in general, feel when they hold conflicting beliefs.

I get that in the realm of the sublime or spiritual that we can hold seemingly conflicting beliefs without discomfiture (e.g. it's a particle and a wave), but we're talking about mundane psychological tools. It's not like art that can be both ugly and beautiful, it's more like an apple that can't also be an orange.

Originally Posted by RobbyRobot View Post
My AA beliefs have no remarkable opinion, if you will, on my AVRT results. My practice of AVRT absolutely treats my embracement of my alcoholic illness as pure Addictive Voice, as is totally expected when using AVRT.
Forgive me, but I am really trying to understand this. It seems that we're down to semantics, with you choosing to use the terms "addictive voice" and "alcoholic illness" interchangeably.

If "alcoholic illness" is supposed to be some sort of spiritual ailment, then I can't see how alcohol - or any temporal substance or activity - could have anything to do with it. That would render it mere superstition, with alcohol in the role of an evil potion that causes a spiritual malady.
SoberKnitter is offline  
Old 04-06-2013, 12:05 PM
  # 319 (permalink)  
Adventures In SpaceTime
Thread Starter
 
RobbyRobot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,827
Originally Posted by SoberKnitter View Post
Forgive me, but I am really trying to understand this. It seems that we're down to semantics, with you choosing to use the terms "addictive voice" and "alcoholic illness" interchangeably.

If "alcoholic illness" is supposed to be some sort of spiritual ailment, then I can't see how alcohol - or any temporal substance or activity - could have anything to do with it. That would render it mere superstition, with alcohol in the role of an evil potion that causes a spiritual malady.
I don't use "alcoholic illness" interchangeably with "addictive voice".

AVRT simply "sees" my embracement of alcoholic illness as pure AV, and nothing but AV. AVRT doesn't give me a free ride, make an exception to my embracement of alcoholism. So, my belief in alcoholism creates food for IT, and AV is a resultant.

For me, alcoholism is not wholly defined as a spiritual malady exactly. I'm more inline with Jung's view, as expressed below.
Originally Posted by Jung 1961

Dear Mr. W.

Your letter has been very welcome indeed.

I had no news from Rowland H. anymore and often wondered what has been his fate. Our conversation which he has adequately reported to you had an aspect of which he did not know. The reason that I could not tell him everything was that those days I had to be exceedingly careful of what I said. I had found out that I was misunderstood in every possible way. Thus I was very careful when I talked to Rowland H. But what I really thought about was the result of many experiences with men of his kind.

His craving for alcohol was the equivalent, on a low level, of the spiritual thirst of our being for wholeness, expressed in medieval language: the union with God.

How could one formulate such an insight in a language that is not misunderstood in our days?

The only right and legitimate way to such an experience is that it happens to you in reality and it can only happen to you when you walk on a path which leads you to higher understanding. You might be led to that goal by an act of grace or through a personal and honest contact with friends, or through a higher education of the mind beyond the confines of mere rationalism. I see from your letter that Rowland H. has chosen the second way, which was, under the circumstances, obviously the best one.

I am strongly convinced that the evil principle prevailing in this world leads the unrecognized spiritual need into perdition, if it is not counteracted either by real religious insight or by the protective wall of human community. An ordinary man, not protected by an action from above and isolated in society, cannot resist the power of evil, which is called very aptly the Devil. But the use of such words arouses so many mistakes that one can only keep aloof from them as much as possible.

These are the reasons why I could not give a full and sufficient explanation to Rowland H., but I am risking it with you because I conclude from your very decent and honest letter that you have acquired a point of view above the misleading platitudes one usually hears about alcoholism.
You see, "alcohol" in Latin is "spiritus" and you use the same word for the highest religious experience as well as for the most depraving poison. The helpful formula therefore is: spiritus contra spiritum.

Thanking you again for your kind letter

I remain
Yours sincerely

C. G. Jung
RobbyRobot is offline  
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to RobbyRobot For This Useful Post:
Ajax (04-11-2013), SoberKnitter (04-06-2013)
Old 04-06-2013, 12:16 PM
  # 320 (permalink)  
Adventures In SpaceTime
Thread Starter
 
RobbyRobot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 5,827
Originally Posted by soberlicious View Post
Believing that a supernatural deity can keep me from putting alcohol in my body is also a thinking technique.
Well, you know already, from past discussions, I don't personally subscribe to the belief that any supernatural deity is keeping me from getting drunk, lol.
RobbyRobot is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to RobbyRobot For This Useful Post:
Ajax (04-11-2013)

Currently Active Users Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off




All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:55 AM.