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Old 04-06-2013, 11:29 AM
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Well, you know already, from past discussions, I don't personally subscribe to the belief that any supernatural deity is keeping me from getting drunk, lol.
I wasn't talking about you. I was talking about "thinking techniques".
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Old 04-06-2013, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by soberlicious View Post
I wasn't talking about you. I was talking about "thinking techniques".
Oh. My bad.




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Old 04-06-2013, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by RobbyRobot View Post
For me, alcoholism is not wholly defined as a spiritual malady exactly. I'm more inline with Jung's view, as expressed below.
Even in Jung's view, it wouldn't be a disease or illness without changing the definitions of the words, and it certainly wouldn't be a permanent state of affairs. It seems that Jung views alcoholism as one form of unhealthy spiritual seeking, which, if true, could be corrected. To continue to define oneself as alcoholic or sick after said correction seems counterproductive.

I suppose I just don't see the benefit of defining yourself as having an ineradicable alcoholic illness. You concede that it is fairly characterized as AV.
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Old 04-06-2013, 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by SoberKnitter View Post
I suppose I just don't see the benefit of defining yourself as having an ineradicable alcoholic illness. You concede that it is fairly characterized as AV.
Yeah, its my personal choice, absolutely. Obviously, this way forward, for me, has advantages and responsibilities inherent with my choices.

It's not for everyone, and it doesn't need to be either. I also hold firm with believing others are not "missing out on something" when they don't do as I do. Being ourselves is paramount to whatever we may do, or not do, to successfully quit drinking.

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Old 04-06-2013, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by RobbyRobot View Post
My AA beliefs have no remarkable opinion, if you will, on my AVRT results.
That's not what you said yesterday. You said (what you pretend to be) AVRT would fail to keep you from drinking if you stopped your AA beliefs. And, of course, that's not AVRT.
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Old 04-06-2013, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by GerandTwine View Post
That's not what you said yesterday. You said (what you pretend to be) AVRT would fail to keep you from drinking if you stopped your AA beliefs. And, of course, that's not AVRT.
I did not say or give example of what it would mean if I stopped my AA beliefs. I would never stop my AA beliefs, GT. In fact, I went on to say I would not disavow myself of my AA beliefs on alcoholism, and because I would not do so, AVRT would indeed fail me as an effective way to quit drinking on its own. AVRT is simply not enough on its own, for me. It does though serve me well enough as is, notwithstanding my alcoholism.

Originally Posted by RobbyRobot View Post
My AA beliefs have no remarkable opinion, if you will, on my AVRT results. My practice of AVRT absolutely treats my embracement of my alcoholic illness as pure Addictive Voice, as is totally expected when using AVRT.

Other then that distinction, no problemo.

Originally Posted by RobbyRobot View Post
My AA defined spiritual sobriety is conditional on me embracing alcoholism as an illness, as defined by AA. This is wholly different then simply being in abstinence.

My Big Plan is simply a decision to forever now quit drinking, and never change my mind. There are no conditions on my QUITTING drinking. Like any one else, I too can just quit, yeah?

On my sobriety, there are, of course, actual conditions. AA is not about abstinence, its about AA sobriety. I recall you generally talking about in various posts how AA program was not for you, even after many years, so perhaps you just can't understand the obvious differences of AA spiritual sobriety, and AVRT resultant abstinence. It's like night and day differences for me, and has been for decades now.

As for drinking again, my practice of the AA twelve steps keeps my alcoholic illness in remission, and so then my alcoholic mind remains un-empowered too. Without my alcoholism in check, I would return to drinking, sooner or later. Alcoholism illness is not just a kind of AVRT Beast in disguise. I'm free to have these views, and I'm also successful with them too. AVRT would fail me because I would not reverse myself, and in that reversal, disavow myself from being an alcoholic.

AVRT simply "sees" my alcoholism as just more Addictive Voice, and nothing but AV. There is no mystery here. It's not like the sky is falling because I have AV, lol.

Practicing AA does give my AVRT Beast a constant feeding of course, and so what? AV is a perfectly normal thinking process. Experiencing AV, no matter how strong or relentless, can never in itself make me ever return to drinking, so no big deal being a recovered alcoholic drug addict who "does both" AVRT, and AA program.

I suppose if I did return to drinking, you'd quickly remark that I never did have a true Big Plan. Well, its been 30+ years and here I am, with a Big Plan, and my practice of the AA program, and my deep enjoyment of AA.

I'll never ever drink again, GT. I've been saying that same thing years before Rational Recovery came onto the scene, and years before AVRT proper was published for public awareness.
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Old 04-06-2013, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by RobbyRobot View Post

I must always live by and practice my AA 12 steps, as I have come to understand them, or else I will absolutely return to drinking. No exceptions for this condition. I do the steps, or I lose my AA sobriety, because my AA alcoholism is kept in remission because of my practice of the entire 12 steps.

No program, and my alcoholic mind would not long be still asleep, and when it came back on line, my present psyche would be struggling for its life against my alcoholism. If I continued to not do the entire 12 steps thereafter, I would absolutely return to drinking.

So, I've made it clear, twice over, that I would return to drinking without the 12 steps to keep my alcoholism in remission, and so then my alcoholic mind would no longer be unempowered.
If the above is not you talking about what would happen if you stopped doing your AA beliefs, then I don't know what is.
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Old 04-06-2013, 03:43 PM
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Yes, and that particular share was not given yesterday. No matter, I've no problem with what I said about my alcoholism. I agree this is absolutely me talking about what would (eventually) happen if I stopped practicing AA program.

And so...?
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Old 04-06-2013, 05:25 PM
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Originally Posted by RobbyRobot View Post
Yes, and that particular share was not given yesterday. No matter, I've no problem with what I said about my alcoholism. I agree this is absolutely me talking about what would (eventually) happen if I stopped practicing AA program.

And so...?
And so... With civil, and dispassionate intent, I will continue to practice the fine Art of AVRT which includes shining the light of understanding upon the Addictive Voice, including the Institutional Addictive Voice, wherever I find it, using the Recognition Technique as presented by Rational Recovery in its printed and internet literature.
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Old 04-06-2013, 05:53 PM
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Originally Posted by GerandTwine View Post
And so... With civil, and dispassionate intent, I will continue to practice the fine Art of AVRT which includes shining the light of understanding upon the Addictive Voice, including the Institutional Addictive Voice, wherever I find it, using the Recognition Technique as presented by Rational Recovery in its printed and internet literature.
I understand, GT. You do what you got to do, no problemo. It will not make any difference whatsoever in where I'm coming from, where I'm at, or where I'm going.

Later.

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Old 04-06-2013, 08:02 PM
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I was referring to the discomfort that people, in general, feel when they hold conflicting beliefs.

I get that in the realm of the sublime or spiritual that we can hold seemingly conflicting beliefs without discomfiture (e.g. it's a particle and a wave), but we're talking about mundane psychological tools. It's not like art that can be both ugly and beautiful, it's more like an apple that can't also be an orange.


oh crumbs, let me jump in, though i don't "do" AVRT per se, just have a crazy alcoholic voice-urge that's reactionary

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if i understand correctly, we're not talking about conflicting beliefs, or apples and oranges, which are both fruits, same category.
the AA sobriety and AVRT are different categories, nothing to compare. one is a tool, the other a "belief", if you will.

for myself, i have come to "believe" that yes, there is such a thing as alcoholism, yes, i have it, and it doesn't have terrifically much to do with the drinking of alcohol.

but that took me a while to see it that way. started with the morning epiphany one day of "holy s88t, i'm a drunk!" meandered from there through hundreds of conversations on my old LR forum with many folk, most of them there for the duration, to understanding, for myself, that yes, that meant, to me, that i'm an an alcoholic with an "ism".

and here's the kicker, since you talked about embracing: i couldn't embrace my sobriety whole-heartedly until i could embrace my alcoholism, so to speak. which does NOT mean i love it or am thrilled to have it, but it is definitely beyond being resigned to it or grudgingly accepting.

it was all a process, and changes in view of my own experiences. and it wasn't all pretty or straightforward.
none of it may be so for you.
for me (have i mentioned this before ), i could, for example, relate this to the difference i experienced in quitting smoking and drinking. AVRT could be successfully used for both, but at no point did i see anything in me that i might conceivably call smokism.

does any of that do anything than muddy the waters for you?
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Old 04-06-2013, 09:38 PM
  # 332 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by fini View Post
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it was all a process, and changes in view of my own experiences. and it wasn't all pretty or straightforward.
none of it may be so for you.
for me (have i mentioned this before ), i could, for example, relate this to the difference i experienced in quitting smoking and drinking. AVRT could be successfully used for both, but at no point did i see anything in me that i might conceivably call smokism.

does any of that do anything than muddy the waters for you?


Great topic all its own Fini, the "ism" aspect of the thing, the restless, irritable, discontent and all of that good stuff. Are these issues a big chunk of the planet have to deal with whether they drink or not or are they part of the addiction itself, or is the addiction little more than an unhealthy coping mechanism?
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Old 04-06-2013, 09:46 PM
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AVRT could be successfully used for both, but at no point did I see anything in me that i might conceivably call smokism.
Exactly. There is no "ism" to your addiction to nicotine, but there is an "ism" to your alcohol addiction? The substance or DOC makes a difference? Not for me.

AA sobriety and AVRT are different categories, nothing to compare. one is a tool, the other a "belief", if you will.
If you study them both, I think it would be impossible to practice both simultaneously, as they are written and intended to be applied. Additionally, AVRT has at it's core many beliefs, which are the basis for it's techniques.
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Old 04-06-2013, 11:32 PM
  # 334 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by soberlicious View Post
If you study them both, I think it would be impossible to practice both simultaneously, as they are written and intended to be applied. Additionally, AVRT has at it's core many beliefs, which are the basis for it's techniques.




You know Soberlicious, that's the main reason I apply the take what works for me and leave the rest approach to almost everything. For example I like a lot of the Buddhist teachings but the rebirth, reincarnation part just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. For what happens after we die I joined the "I don't know" camp.

By the time I got around to throwing in the towel with all substances I was experiencing detoxes where suicide actually seemed like a good idea. I used a mindfulness approach where all thoughts of using anything were dismissed as irrational. In my mind I knew where it would lead so any thoughts of going back there were irrational.

I never saw any need to analyze thoughts and decide if they were addictive voice or not, I had decided to knock it off for good so what did it matter? The decision had already been made and for me that was the beginning and the end of the story.

If you think about it none of the ideas in any of the programs are new or divine revelations or anything of the nature. Almost all of it in any program is ages old stuff that people threw together in the form of a book or program. They picked and chose what they wanted to use in their program so why can't each of us do the same?
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Old 04-06-2013, 11:48 PM
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Originally Posted by soberlicious View Post
If you study them both, I think it would be impossible to practice both simultaneously, as they are written and intended to be applied.
I am not 100% convinced that it is impossible. Maybe if you take the written words in the books as truth then yes I would agree. I however am not one to make my sober life conform to what someone else believes it should be. I fully expect to have a happy healthy future without alcohol ever. If it means making a fruit salad of apples and oranges then I'm gonna make it using the recipes as a starting place.
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Old 04-07-2013, 07:52 AM
  # 336 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by BackToSquareOne
They picked and chose what they wanted to use in their program so why can't each of us do the same?
Um...we can. I'm a huge proponent of choice. Always have been.

Originally Posted by BackToSquareOne
If you think about it none of the ideas in any of the programs are new or divine revelations or anything of the nature. Almost all of it in any program is ages old stuff that people threw together in the form of a book or program.
I've echoed this sentiment in many of my posts in the last couple of years.

Originally Posted by HitRockBottom70
If it means making a fruit salad of apples and oranges then I'm gonna make it using the recipes as a starting place.
Of course, I have always done the same.

Originally Posted by HitRockBottom70
I however am not one to make my sober life conform to what someone else believes it should be.
Surely you must know you are preaching to the choir on this one. The only difference is that I don't differentiate between my "sober life" and my "life". I have "To Thine Own Self Be True" inked across my back permanently. I am not a conformist, but I do respect that there are basic tenets that hold different philosophies together. The very fact that I believe that is one of the main reasons I don't attend recovery groups. I feel it is important to embrace the basic tenets, otherwise to go and rail against them is not my place. I can go to the Catholic church with friends and it's quite a nice experience, but I'm not going to take communion because I think that's disrespectful to others given my beliefs.

I still stand by what I said. It is much like saying I am a Christian Atheist. I'm not putting a judgement on either method, or any method, but saying that you pick and choose, and saying that you practice two completely opposing ideas in their entirety are two different things.
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Old 04-07-2013, 08:40 AM
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Originally Posted by soberlicious View Post
I'm not putting a judgement on either method, or any method, but saying that you pick and choose, and saying that you practice two completely opposing ideas in their entirety are two different things.
Thank you, soberlicious. It really is just this simple, for me.
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Old 04-07-2013, 08:44 AM
  # 338 (permalink)  
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Soberlicious,

You don't actually declare that you use AVRT, as written out in RR, do you? And why is that?

How is that you are not a total AVRT kind of person? What is it that holds you back from a total commitment to AVRT? Isn't your holding back a source for Addictive Voice?

I am also a believer that experience, real live experience, trumps book pseudo experience time and time again. You really don't know what I mean, by experience of your own, when I say I do both AA and AVRT, do you? You can only deduce my meaning, and nothing more then, since you actually do not "do" either AA or AVRT.

Yes, I know. You've read up on them. Listened to others. Thought it all out. Still though, you don't commit enough to AVRT to say you actually use it, and AA you flat out think is unworkable.

Why should I respect what your saying, about my successful experiences with AA and AVRT, when you're really speaking from a place of inference, and not actually YOUR OWN experiences?

Originally Posted by soberlicious View Post
Well, there is another big difference, Robby, that you see a difference between abstinence and AA sobriety. The way I see it, you use the 12 steps to better your life the same way I study Buddhism to better mine.

People can and do stagnate all the time. It has nothing to do with whether one has ever been addicted. Not growing and learning would not take me back to the bottle, but it would certainly make me unhappy.

OK, Robby, I understand your explanation of what you got goin' on...all except this:
You said this...

and then you said this...
I understand that you see your AA sobriety and non-drinking as 2 different things, but I don't understand what you mean in the above statements.

I have always been what others consider agonostic, but it wasn't until I quit that I began to be able to fully embrace nontheism. Being a drunk wasn't blocking my spirituality, since I wasn't ever spiritual, but when I was a drunk, I was disconnected from others and from myself. That, for me, was the equivalent of what others would call "spiritually sick".

I don't consider myself an AAer nor an AVRTer even though I understand both paradigms. My mind does work in a more AVRTish way. I do however practice righting my wrongs, looking at my actions each day, and helping others and those are considered AAish things, but AA can't lay claim to the wisdom in the 12 steps, that's age old. Bill W just synthesized that wisdom and focused it toward ending addiction...Trimpey did the same.
For me one of the biggest differences is that AA is a "design for living"...AVRT is not. So in comparing them, it's like apples and oranges.
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Old 04-07-2013, 08:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Received View Post
Thank you, soberlicious. It really is just this simple.
No, it is not that simple.
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Old 04-07-2013, 08:58 AM
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I am speaking from real experience of using both AVRT and AA program. They are not in conflict with each other as far as using them both to ensure a non-drinking lifestyle. Where AVRT is about QUITTING, and AA is about SPIRITUAL SOBRIETY, no conflict exists. Surely, you can see AVRT has no opinion on spiritual matters, yeah?

However, I'm not deaf to the rhetoric of AVRT railed against AA, and the 12 step recovery model. At the end of the day though, it is just rhetoric. Like I've always said, I ignore the rhetoric.

I also have not returned to drinking, even though the rhetoric of RR:AVRT says should have happened to me, because of my alcoholism, and my AA 12 steps. And yet, here I am: sober.

In fact, I've never slipped, fallen, returned to drinking, from the first day I ever quit drinking AFTER asking for outside help, and that is not a common experience. Many people in AA return to drinking while in AA. Not me. Many persons return to drinking while with AVRT too. Not me.

The only experience that happens while "doing" both AA and AVRT is that my alcoholism causes a steady feeding for my BEAST, and this causes a steady resource for Addictive Voice.

Big Deal.

AV is a perfectly normal thinking process, and according to RR:AVRT is the actual addiction itself.

Well guess what?

Since I already embrace I am addicted to alcoholism ie I am an alcoholic drug addict, my AV also being what RR considers is the single and only source for my addiction, perhaps you can see how I won't get bent out of shape with something that defines what I already have accepted.

And if you can't get your head around any of that...

So what... you're not me, yeah?

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