RobbyRobot

Originally posted Feb 19th 2012

fini

My kindness was wasted.

Robby,

sincerely think that kindness is NEVER wasted. though do understand how it can feel like that.

i'm not entirely clear on how this got so bad so fast, but do see what you mean about having your share of your experience/way relentlessly ripped apart into shreds to be examined under a microscope.
i will say i'm not used to the tone that was in several posts, and didn't like it.

and that includes the ball-busting comment.
yes, i know. my problem.

you know, all, what are we to do if a person can't share who/how they are in their entirety?
if we'd rather they leave "their aa-stuff" out of the secular section, or their secular tools out of the "aa-section".
wth???

this kind of rigid compartmentalizing mostly leads to , well, i'll speak about myself: it leaves me thinking it's not safe to come here and explore what i'm thinking about, asking others about their ways; some subtle (or not so subtle) pressure to go one way or another....how great if most of you can do that.
i cannot, not anymore, and have so much appreciated what seems like such a stellar way of showing it's not black or white, either/or.

such a shame to see this go this way.

fini

Wow...disappointed to see that AA discussion has now infiltrated the secular forum?

Elphaba,
what do you suggest people do/where and how would you like to see a whole person post if they do more than one "thing"?
where, in your opinion, should a person take themselves if they don't "fit" into someone else's rigid categories?
would it be preferable to you if they left part of themselves outside the gate whenever they want to hang around?
you might then say they weren't being genuine because look, wow, look at what they hid!

nothing here about AA infiltrating.
one person talking about themselves.

do you see a difference?

these are genuine questions of mine.

RobbyRobot

(((fini))), what can I say? Awesomely well said. Thank you. Thank you is a good start.

LosingmyMisery

Well, been coming to SR for many years. I recognize good intent here, Robby, and I thank you for that. I have read this thread and wondered how long the banter would last before it strayed off course. The thread took an "icky" feel a bit back and a couple of individuals stood out as wanting to attack everything you said. I give you credit for your willingness to persevere the bumps in this road.

I enjoy a good debate myself. However, it always seems as if a few take it to an unnecessary level. There are those who are attracted to discussions, such as this, like a moth to flames.

Why do others feel the need to dissect, dispute every word or thought? I never have understood why that is necessary. Sure, we can agree to disagree, but it seems as if a few are waiting on the sidelines ready to ponce while dictating that this word, that statement or indication/inclination is wrong.

Pointing out wording as inappropriate or deeming unfit for "my" concepts or belief system I find to be nonproductive to the purpose. Why are others so compelled to point out the differences and citing them as flawed when someone is making a statements based on their life experience? Sure, there is always room for healthy discussion, but this thread turned unhealthy several pages back, as I suspected would happen. With this type of attack dog mentality, a good discussion can turn into a messy feeding frenzy quickly.

I don't post that often, but I do read. I appreciate what you are doing here, Robby. I know you can fend for yourself and don't need me to step in to straighten things out, but I felt the need to express myself.

Continue to discuss, please. There is nothing wrong with a serious discussion, but these threads are not a contest to see who is right or who is wrong. It is about sharing our experiences and thoughts. We all can agree or disagree. There really is no need to dig to the bone to reveal a certain meaning or uncover one that isn't even there. May I respectfully suggest leaving the attack dogs at home.

I know, everyone is probably wondering who the heck am I with the strong opinion and the big mouth? I realize I've now just opened myself up for dissection as well. So be it. Certainly my post is filled with numerous flaws and inaccuracy in how I really feel, meant or wanted to say. I guess I'll find out soon enough.

Once again, thank you, Robby, for taking the time to share your experience with others and to everyone else who did so respectfully. I will take away value from what I can connect with, a new concept from something I haven't yet considered or pondered, and will find value in something I can't necessarily relate to. Why? Because you were willing to share a part of yourself with all of us. Something not everyone can or is willing to do.

RobbyRobot

And thank YOU, LosingmyMisery, for a wonderfully inspiring share for all of us who want to give of ourselves as best we can. I'm always trying to see how I can relate and otherwise support whomever rather then throw cold water on someone's experiences. Thanks for taking the well considered, self-reflective path with your share.

And you're right, I can fend for myself, but even so, I managed to get myself hurt and offended, which caused me to become personally defensive and reactive. I'm human after all, lol. And I'm responsible for my attitudes, words, and reactions too. I'm very ready to take responsibility for myself in this thread. I'm not an innocent, but then again, I don't have to be an innocent either. It's obvious I have something to say, and I enjoy when others join in too, and we all have a common goal of sharing our sameness and our differences, with respect and enthusiasm for our collective efforts, no one being "right" or "wrong" compared to any one else. There may be a place somewhere for strong debates, but this thread was never that place. I'm very happy others too agree debate is different then sharing a discussion of our experiences.

I'm still very grateful this thread has not been closed. How inspirational to continue to share our life experiences. We're stronger together even while respecting our differences then we can ever be throwing rhetoric around and soap-boxing ourselves.

It's grand to see the thread come back to a purpose again. Thanks so much, guys. I mean also the persons who are just reading, and simply thanking too. It all matters to me.

bemyself

Excellent! Just read the last few posts from fini's onwards.

Agree totally with all. It's the spirit of the thing (if you'll all forgive the pun).

I won't say 'carry on' as such, given it's well past your bedtime in the northern hemisphere, but yeh, I love hearing from the 'in-betweens' amongst us. I'm one myself (cough).

fini

ah, better direction.

seeing/knowing i can be a dissector myself, here are some thoughts, or uh, here's my experience: it's easy for questions to be put in a way that seems hostile. pursuing. relentless.
or for people to make statements instead of asking, when asking would be much more to the point.

to me, it comes more naturally to offer opinions (whether people ask for them or not!) (i grew up in a family where arguing is the main way of communicating, and whoever cannot keep up with the logical sequence until the last definitive pounce is the LOSER), and i've had to and continue to have to work at asking.
saying "well this just makes no sense and is contradictory to..." sure. easy.
but asking "hm...how do you see then ...and"is much more difficult. partly because i have to scrap the preconceived judgments. i have to decide to want to hear.

this feels much more vulnerable to me.

such safety in the judgments.

anyway, that's me.

and the "so-and-so says thank you..." in my mind feeds into that. lots of posts are useful, but it seems that feature is easily used to show agreement, or liking. it's like rating some-one's post, in a way.

i noticed when i started posting here that i've had to make a real effort to not be concerned about posting and having no "thank you...", or worrying about what i'd said to offend ...yikes! the projections! the insecurities! good learning experience for me, seeing how much i want to be "liked" and how i react when i'm not getting that feedback.

okay, back to business.

very useful thread in many ways.

HitRockBottom70

Fini, I get what you're saying. The thank you button is used in many ways. Sometimes it is used just to let people know you have read the post. I know in the May 2012 thread many of us use it on every post. Some who no longer post use it to let us know they are ok, and when you have not heard from someone in months...this is a nice gift. Outside that thread, it does take some effort to be unconcerned with it. But some posts are more for us anyway. Also, there are many times I have clicked thank you on a post with my iPad and it does not show up the next time I am on the thread.

Sometimes when a thread goes so far off course, where it breaks down into sides... I do not feel comfortable leaving a thank you anymore. A few months ago that was different, I may have taken a side and joined in. It really got me nowhere so I avoid that now.

LosingmyMisery

I know what you mean about the Thank You button. Should I or shouldn't I? Often times I don't Thank anyone even though I agree or get what they are saying. If I Thank one person I feel as if I should Thank everyone. Some days I don't Thank anyone. I guess it is a day by day matter of what kind of mood I'm in. In all, the Thank You button doesn't mean that much to me. I've read some really great posts offering great advice and insight and not one person has Thanked it and I wonder why. The Thank You button shouldn't validate, but often times it does. What are you gonna do?

I've been coming to recovery boards since 2004. Trust me when I say I have done the full gambit of inappropriate behaviors. I've been angry and posted, I've over reacted, misread and mistook comments to be directed at me when they weren't. I've seriously tried to be helpful and my words have angered the very person I was trying to help. I'm talking really ticked off. I've really pulled back on my posts and really don't post often. I come to connect by reading.

I know that people will do what they will do. People come here for help. Some are ready for it, some aren't. When I do share, I post about my experience and what worked for me. I try to make my point indirectly, tip toeing softly as not to offend. Now, I may not always be successful, but that is my intention.

I really thought twice about whether or not I should have posted yesterday. It is hard not to offend. I've had some really good intentions go South quickly and was left shaking my head wondering what happened? So, I understand where everyone is coming from. We want to be involved, help and state our opinion. We are, after all, only human and to err is human. With that, I'll keep coming back.

fini

Trust me when I say I have done the full gambit of inappropriate behaviors. I've been angry and posted, I've over reacted, misread and mistook comments to be directed at me when they weren't. I've seriously tried to be helpful and my words have angered the very person I was trying to help. I'm talking really ticked off.

oh yeah, i trust you when you say this, LmM.
have had much the same experiences, and it's been great, though, to see that i don't react quite as badly and intensely as i used to in my very early sobriety. and so...entirely bloody reactive, taking EVERYTHING personally.
now, i only take a lot of things personally .
it's nice to see a progression in myself to more detachment/ less enmeshment. a real relief.
HRB, yes, i hear you on the effort to be unconcerned.

can't say i like the fact that i'm not simply bigger than that, floating unconcernedly above such mundane matters as others' approval.
HA!


The Thank You button shouldn't validate, but often times it does. What are you gonna do?

well, what i did is to simply NEVER use it. i know i would get sucked into using it to make decisions about "sides", or to let people know i "agree", and i'm just not going to go there. not grown up enough to trust myself with it .
such bizarre "power"

oops, too many smileys. so glad we had this little chat.

LosingmyMisery

Look at me, I used a smiley instead of hitting the Thank You button. I think I may be learning...

fini

ja but ja but...does that mean i'll get no more names amassed in the "the following users say..." field?

crushing!

see?

RobbyRobot

HitRockBottom70

Robby,
In the spirit of this thread, can you speak to your experience of letting things go and how it relates to AVRT and the beast. I really can see some similarities although I am not very good at wording my thoughts. I have come to believe that "The Beast" is part of a larger set of voices that tell me I am not good enough, not smart enough, etc.

Learning to recognize this part (that is not me) but is trying to run me seems key to my recovery. I was on a thread the other day and Lovetosail suggested "The Power of Now" audio version. I loved the idea of listening to it while driving or when I can't read. You and Received also gave it high praises, so I downloaded it. Through chapter 1 at this point and it's great.

I am still confused though. It also seems that my use of AVRT in the past has been a struggle about control...One which made me very proud and happy because I was winning. Moving forward with my recovery, I am realizing there is a lot more work to do. Maybe the "I" that is controlling is the real problem. Maybe this needs to go too and be replaced with an AVRT that accepts and lets go. I hope my rambling thoughts are somewhat understandable...

RobbyRobot

There is no "letting go" requirement, or advantage realized with the act of letting go, within AVRT proper, is my experience. As well, the Beast or IT, and its Addictive Voice is purely consistent with the desire, and only with that same desire, for drinking of alcohol for IT's pleasure.

My experiences with practicing AVRT are not "recovery experiences" since with AVRT there is nothing to recover from, exactly. AVRT is simply about lifelong permanent abstinence from drinking alcohol, and nothing else. Everything after quitting is just your personal choices going forward as a non-drinker while practicing AVRT.

HRB, my understanding is you want to continue FORWARD with PERSONAL recovery EXPERIENCES from alcoholism, as an alcoholic, correct? As you know, I'm a recovered alcoholic myself.

Sorry for the questions, but I already assumed I knew whatever enough about some other questions by other persons who posted seeking my opinion/advice, and I'll not make that mistake, in this thread anyways, again.

Of course, you can rest easy knowing I understand your questions, no problemo, because I can easily relate to your stated experiences.

So, we have half-an answer so far. My apologies for my being careful, lol. I hope you understand. I'm of course ready to give my deeper experiences with your questions, based on are you in recovery or not?

Thanks for the questions, and yes, they are totally within the spirit of this thread.

Thanks.

HitRockBottom70

These are questions I thought I had answers to. When I quit, I knew I had a drinking problem. I could not stop at just 1 and I broke all the rules I set for myself. I consider this "alcoholic". The definition of an alcoholic is one that suffers from alcoholism. I am guessing I still would be unable to stop at just 1 so technically that still makes me an alcoholic. But this really is not a testable theory because I am not going to drink. So then comes the question do I suffer from alcoholism anymore. I am not sure. And I can honestly say that. Not trying to be evasive or trap you. I am not really one for labels because I don't see things as black and white... All shades of gray.

RobbyRobot

Awesome. Thanks.

My experience is I do know I'm a recovered alcoholic. I have no doubts my alcoholism illness is in remission. My sureness is based on my drinking experiences, and non-drinking experiences. I personally don't use the "can't quit or stop drinking" thinking to define my alcoholism. I prefer to use a quality of life barometer as a measure of my alcoholism existence. I quit drinking because I couldn't both live and drink. I quit because I didn't want to die drunk. If I could have not quit, and still had a life of quality to live, I never would have quit in the first place. And there is the rub - what is quality of life?

It's all about personal choices, personal responsibilities, personal experiences., etc. The bottom line, for me, is I decide what life I want and need to live to be me, myself, and I. It's not really the responsibility of any one else to decide for me what life means to me. Sounds very obvious, stated out like that, eh?! Surprisingly, a lot of folk struggle with how to live their life after quitting drinking. Initially, a struggle is inevitable. Struggling for months and then even into years though, on how to live a happy, non-drinking life, means to me anyways, that something elemental and essential in quality is missing from within that struggling persons life.

I was agnostic when I quit. Now, I'm a Christian. What happened?

Life happened. My life. I apparently needed a defined spiritual wealth for me to successfully enjoy a quality life, so I changed to ensure I received what I wanted: a quality life of my own spiritual understanding. Who knew? Well, certainly some others knew for themselves. Me, I couldn't have been more surprised that I became an active-in-the-present spiritual person, lol.

My simplified practice of AA program allowed for me to explore my spiritual awareness with an understanding of my alcoholism all at the same time. What's not to like? I was being satisfied and being deeply introspective all at the same time. Awesome. I really didn't care what the process was to enable me to live a quality life. I really just cared about living that life. For real. Not anymore wanting it, but actually living it. So, here I am, actually living it, and been living it for decades now too. Awesome.

So, like I said in an earlier post to our discussion, AVRT allows for unlimited personal choices going forward after quitting. I myself don't use AVRT to make better choices in my life. Quitting is the complete cure for my past drinking, is my understanding of AVRT. No need to be an alcoholic. No need to understand alcoholism illness. Just quit. Get on with life.

My AV is always about future drinking, and nothing but future drinking. I don't subscribe to "subtle AV" machinations. Complications arise with my calling everything/anything AV that personally disturbs or confuses me. Doing so would, for me, create doubt in my ability to be indifferent to my AV. My Beast would like nothing more then to create doubt and fear within me about my ability to practice AVRT.

I suppose some people think themselves clever in describing their "subtle AV", but for me, they are actually not being indifferent to it if they are still having discussions on just how subtle is subtle.

I recognise my AV so that I CAN in fact be indifferent, in real present time, and not to have a discussion about how I'm outsmarting my Beast. My Beast is as dumb as a bag of apples. No great accomplishment there, yeah? I don't allow IT to tell me I may miss whatever. I miss nothing. I have no fears of missing anything either. And my being more then 30+ years of successfully not drinking proves me out. At least to my Beast, and I. Confusion about and between me and IT has long ago been settled. Its a done deal already. I suggest you quickly don't get caught up with the kind of thinking that invites confusion into your non-drinking lifestyle. Life is hard enough without us beating ourselves up with doubts.

Anyways. Indifference and disassociation with my AV is the desired result, and is the ONLY reason I continue to practice AVRT.

So, I suggest you confine the collective voices into a separation of yourself, and your AV. Your AV is by definition any thought, idea, feeling etc that leads to future drinking. Everything else is NOT AV.

I've made some strong suggestions. No problem if its not for you. Its me sharing with YOU. If I'm not making sense, that's okay, let's discuss more, or let it go, and we both move on, no problem. And of course, if it does make sense, then let's discuss that too, lol.

Thanks, HRB. I appreciate your discussions in this thread no end.

HitRockBottom70

Robby, Thanks for the awesome reply. I have a lot to think about and digest, but I will need to get back with you tomorrow. Just getting up after a long shift last night and have to get ready to go in again now. It does "make sense" to me

HitRockBottom70

Robby, Tomorrow has turned into 3 days. I am still thinking about your post. I am in a place of searching right now. Know I am thinking about what you wrote but I have no clue where to go with it. I accept that right now. Just wanted to let you know and not just leave you hanging.