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Old 04-08-2013, 08:49 AM
  # 401 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by bemyself
I take no umbrage whatsoever that drinking (again) could be rightly seen as a failure.
For the last time, I will reiterate that the discussion was not about whether or not drinking again is seen as failure. Robby bringing up Received's return to drinking was completely irrelevent to the question she asked. The intent behind it was clear to me, despite Robby's attempt to say otherwise. This strategy is very common in the RGM, and it is a huge roadblock to any kind of real authentic discourse.

You can post all the grinning dancing bananas you want to. I don't respect those who resort to jabs, then deny it. If you're going employ a passive-aggressive style, at least own it dude.
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Old 04-08-2013, 08:55 AM
  # 402 (permalink)  
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Could we please leave yesterday behind us. Beating a dead horse or sqeezing already hypoxic balls tighter does no one any good. We all are rare enough on this section without tearing each other apart.
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Old 04-08-2013, 09:09 AM
  # 403 (permalink)  
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Just played "catch up" with the thread. All drama aside it seems very strange to me that one can say "I will never drink again unless I dont practice steps" which is essentially what anyone working both programs would have to say to themselves. I tried it and decided not to go this route.

I can get where one can say "without steps I am not going to remain sober" but if that is the case why bother with AVRT at all? Why not just stick with AA? Why bother with a BP? What purpose does a BP serve if there are conditions?

Oh well, I am just stating the obvious and will probably be told I missed where this has been discussed but, it just seems to me that one may as well just stick with AA and make the "higher power" thing take the place of a BP... seems easier than trying to mesh the two programs. AA in and of itself is a "complete program" not in need of any adjusting from what I understand. Just thoughts.....
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Old 04-08-2013, 09:10 AM
  # 404 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by soberlicious View Post
For the last time, I will reiterate that the discussion was not about whether or not drinking again is seen as failure. Robby bringing up Received's return to drinking was completely irrelevent to the question she asked. The intent behind it was clear to me, despite Robby's attempt to say otherwise. This strategy is very common in the RGM, and it is a huge roadblock to any kind of real authentic discourse.

You can post all the grinning dancing bananas you want to. I don't respect those who resort to jabs, then deny it. If you're going employ a passive-aggressive style, at least own it dude.
This will get us exactly no where, soberlicious. You can continue to call me out as you wish, insisting I was dishonest, and in your words, my using a common RGM strategy; but it won't make any difference in what I've already answered. I'm not going to play this uninteresting game of anger with you, soberlicious.

I guess you'll have to decide for yourself if your own comments are actually becoming the roadblock to more discussion with you.
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Old 04-08-2013, 09:36 AM
  # 405 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by jkb View Post
I can get where one can say "without steps I am not going to remain sober" but if that is the case why bother with AVRT at all? Why not just stick with AA? Why bother with a BP? What purpose does a BP serve if there are conditions?
I quit without conditions before I began with AA program. AA program was offered in the detox rehab I lived in initially for 90 days. As I worked the program, I realised I was coming into agreement with the ideas of what alcoholism as an illness was being presented to me in the AA Big Book.

As I continued with my detox, I decided to adopt the 12 steps into my life as a workable answer to my now embracement of my alcoholism. Still though, I never did let go of my original decision to just not drink anymore. I only wanted what AA offered as sobriety as a solution for what AA defined as my alcoholism illness. Made great sense to me, because I learned early on, that one can come to their own understanding of how the 12 steps fit into their life, as long as one doesn't change the wording of the steps, and they are open to a spiritual sobriety. There is actually a lot of room to move around and be myself, still be true to the program, and still be true to my original decision to just quit drinking.

Most people just keep it simple and follow directions when it comes to AA and AVRT. Me, I've never really been good at that, lol. I like doing for myself, I like to be very personal with myself. I like to face me with me, so to speak, and see what I can do with myself when challenged.

AVRT and RR actually didn't become public until after 1986, and I had already been sober 5 years before that. I never talked much about my AVRT until the thread and forums here started up with the discussion, and I realized I might have something to share with my experiences.

it would be an unfortunate generalization to box me into mainstream AA or mainstream AVRT. I always take what I need, and some people don't really want to have a discussion with me on those terms, their thinking is more like I'm breaking too many rules, moving the goalposts around, etc.

Whatever.

Thanks for the thoughts, jkb. I hope I've helped explain myself a bit more.
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Old 04-08-2013, 09:38 AM
  # 406 (permalink)  
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I asked a genuine question, Robby. I was/am confused and my question and intent was/is sincere.

The responses from you, through several posts to me and others, was I was a liar (feigning confusion), a failure, unsuccessful, and being confused is my "mantra" with you.

All that because I simply and sincerely asked what "AA Sobriety" is.

I didn't deserve to be flamed, disregarded, demeaned and mocked by you. No one deserves to be treated that way under any circumstances. EVER.

I didn't ever get the answer to the question I so genuinely asked but I sure did get a lot of just plain school yard bullying.

Later. I'm on my way out for several hours. I would appreciate from here forward you would find a way to be respectful.

Peace.
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Old 04-08-2013, 09:43 AM
  # 407 (permalink)  
 
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Could we please leave yesterday behind us. Beating a dead horse or sqeezing already hypoxic balls tighter does no one any good. We all are rare enough on this section without tearing each other apart.
I love a challenging discussion...love the banter with skilled participants. I can accept challenges and I can offer them, but I will not engage with those who resort to gaslighting. It's unimaginative and predictable.

and ps I'm not angry, dude, but I am rather dizzy from the circular talk. I'll leave you guys to sort this out.

xo
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Old 04-08-2013, 10:31 AM
  # 408 (permalink)  
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Received,

I'm open to having a good discussion of what happened. Before I go ahead, is this something you'd like in the open, in this thread. Or in pm's to each other. Either way works for me, either way. I know why I did what I did, and I can offer you my side, no problem.

I hope this response indicates my earnest desire to work this out between you and I, and others who are interested.



Let me know. Thanks.
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Old 04-08-2013, 10:39 AM
  # 409 (permalink)  
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I'm still waiting to hear how "AA sobriety" is different from regular sobriety. I'm glad I'm not the only one.
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Old 04-08-2013, 10:42 AM
  # 410 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by SoberKnitter View Post
I'm still waiting to hear how "AA sobriety" is different from regular sobriety. I'm glad I'm not the only one.
Yes, I'm looking for previous posts of mine which may be helpful. I'm also "working" today, and so time management is in play for me. I'm getting there though!

Thanks.
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Old 04-08-2013, 02:19 PM
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Okay, so here are some earlier posts of my own meaning of AA sobriety. These posts all are linked back to their respective threads.

The most obvious meaning of AA sobriety is simply sobriety which is accomplished from practicing the AA program as a most basic understanding. Often sobriety is inter-changed with abstinence for many folk. For me, there are clear differences. Some of these differences others share an understanding with me, and some are very personal to me discovered in my own sober experiences, and not so much shared within a larger crowd as a common or usual understanding/experience.

I hope this brings additional understanding when I speak about AA sobriety. I'll continue to seek out already published posts, so as to offer some history from within SR to my present statements, in this thread.

Thanks.

Feel free for discussing, if desired, and if not, no problemeo.


Originally Posted by RobbyRobot View Post
Don't ask much, do you, eh?!

No problemo, thanks for asking, harry.

My conditions for sobriety exist because of my existing conditions for alcoholism, which are defined as described within the pages of the Alcoholics Anonymous Big Book, 1st ed., and as well as AA's Twelve Step program.

To be clear, I am a recovered alcoholic drug addict, and I live a sustained spiritual life of sobriety. My alcoholism illness is not cured, but arrested. My alcoholic mind is alseep, unempowered. I have a new sober mind, a new sans-alcohol psyche, and have had for almost as much time as i have been not drinking, back when I detoxed in 1981. My sobriety, to be clear, is AA, and includes my work with gestalt therapy. I was a very sick puppy.

There are increasingly disturbing gaps in my living experience, which are not being answered by my AA sobriety, and so, I'm looking into AVRT to have another honest look at myself, with fresh 'eyes' so to speak. So far, its working well.

Spiritual sobriety and abstinence are not the same experience, yeah?

This is not the thread for much discussion of AA, of course. We can finish this quickly with our agreement that obvious conditions exist to maintain my AA sobriety. No conditions exist to maintain abstinence. Awesome times for me in both cases, and I'll never trade one for the other, and they don't cancel each other out either, is my experience.

Originally Posted by RobbyRobot View Post
How we come to understand our HP is of personal importance of course. We can share that we both make use of our respective HP in our respective sober journeys of course, and yet comparing our understandings does not do either of us justice. Sharing our experiences is helpful, yeah?

For instance, my HP does not keep me sober. My HP does help me create a quality sobriety yes, but keep me sober? No. My original decision to never get drunk again never have another drink is what keeps me in abstinence of drinking.

An alcoholic mind is not something we can reach out and touch -- an alcoholic mind is a crude construct within the mind of an alcoholic person who uses that construction to engineer taking a drink. An alcoholic mind can of course have enough power to destroy a life. Alcoholic insanity exists and can destroy a life without mercy.

Originally Posted by RobbyRobot View Post
I agree with the watershed understanding. No functional differences in the early beginnings either way. However, as the days of abstinence gather I can't remain on Step 1 while in AVRT I can of course forever stand on my original declaration.

I made the declaration of never drinking again and I am a AA member. I made that declaration though before I accepted any kind of recovery plan or deal or way forward or whatever... I simply did not want to die as a drunken drunk and so I made a stand to never drink again to ensure not dying drunk.

I began AA Step 1 and thru to Step 12 to ensure I would never drink again and I did so because I already knew from sharing with others three things:

1. alcoholism can kill alcoholics even when they are seeking help and apparently getting help. Can't make a horse drink water. None are so blind as those who wont see. Shitt happens. Live and let live.

2. AA sobriety is in a class of its own and is unique and can only be replicated and experienced while actually living the Twelve Steps of AA in all my daily affairs. Works for me not dying drunk. Way cool.

3. I could not care less what works if it *truly and authentically* works for me even if it only works for me I will still live my journey by walking my talk and sharing my experiences to those not deaf and blind to what I am giving back. I am not an island.

AA is a program of daily intervention on my sobriety to ensure my sobriety retains its qualities as promised by living the AA Way.

AVRT is for me (and as yet I am still an early student of AVRT. Have not finished reading the RR:TNC) a completely different experience so far and I'm certain as I reach the full measure of AVRT *for me* I will gain yet another epiphany, and so what's there not to love?!!

So, to sum up, yeah they start the same but the daily living experiences between the two are light years apart is my ongoing experience...

Originally Posted by RobbyRobot View Post
Yeah, that works too.

We know already why and none of the offered reasons are resonable enough to discount prompt recovery. It is unfortunate that some people talk themselves into picking up that next drink even as they insist they are serious about quitting.

I'm always amazed how many alcoholic drinkers use the excuse of alcoholism to explain why they are yet drunk again. It wasn't an really an excuse, it was entirely a confirmed reality that is not being honestly faced by the drinker ie: alcoholics easily can drink alcohol without any required complicated rhyme or reason or excuse. Alcoholics of every stripe drink for the simplest reason in the world: they can drink so they do drink.

We of course have are own personal issues with our past or current drinking experiences, respectively. Personal issues have everything to do with justifying whatever and nothing to do with quitting for good and always. The quality of that forever quitting experience *of course* has everything to do with us personally yeah, but that the actual quitting is dependant on our personality?? --> NO WAY.

Some people just can't get over themselves long enough to give themselves an honest break. After they are given to understand that quitting drinking works and they find themselves back to drinking, its all delusionally personal after that, has been my own experiences with guys and gals who go back out again and again. I speak from my own experience. I didn't stay away from alcohol either when I began my journey into quitting.

Simplicity is a difficult experience to grasp when one is dumbfounded by asking themselves continously: why me??!!
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Old 04-09-2013, 05:32 AM
  # 412 (permalink)  
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cricket.... cricket .... cricket
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Old 04-09-2013, 09:19 AM
  # 413 (permalink)  
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It seems like just a bunch of sematics to me at this point but, I appreciate your story Robby and I am glad it works for you. To me it is simple as this: I will not say that I am powerless over alcohol and then say I will never drink again because if I was powerless than I could not determine if I would drink again. So, it is a choice between the two FOR ME however, you seperate it into two different aspects of your life from what I can gather. "AA sobriety" and abstinence.... Oh well, I may be getting this all wrong.

I like an occasional AA meeting. It is all that is offered in my area no SMART or RR so, if I want to hang out with non-drinkers I would go there but, like I said I could not complete step one without rewording it and thus... I would be altering an amazing program that in my opinion doesn't need to be altered. It helps so many just the way it is. I am happy you have found a way to reconcile the two....

Not to be in anyway argumentative but, it appears that the only piece of RR you are embracing is the BP aspect. Maybe I am wrong... oh well.... like I said I found the discussion interesting. Thanks....
Jess
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Old 04-09-2013, 09:41 AM
  # 414 (permalink)  
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Yeah, it seems to be going in circles at this point. I was hoping for a simple explanation, but it seems one doesn't exist. All I'm getting is that "AA sobriety" is sobriety with an ineffable quality that can only be understood by someone experiencing it. It's apparently very different from regular sobriety and happens to some people when they work 12 steps. It is conditional whereas abstinence is not, whatever that means.

Sorry, Robby, but it seems like the definition of "AA sobriety" doesn't lend itself to description in English.
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Old 04-09-2013, 10:31 AM
  # 415 (permalink)  
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My issue with it is that in simple terms it seems to go back to the "dry drunk" idea which I dont buy into either. You can be abstinent but, not have the whole "AA sobriety". I cannot have "AA sobriety" so I guess I need to bow out of the thread as well... Again no offense Robby I know this works for you.... it just isnt for me.
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Old 04-09-2013, 05:00 PM
  # 416 (permalink)  
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No offense taken. Thanks for the honesty. It's nice to hear, for a change.

This thread was never about members of SR being invited to grill me about my experiences relative to their own, or to mainstream AA/AVRT. I was never interested in sharing with others so that they could then twist around what I shared as if I was wanting others to sign up and do as I did.

This whole secular forum would naturally have great difficulty in my sobriety when we consider that my sobriety is spiritual and AA. I mean, c'mon, talk about people being jaded to my shares even before I shared, yeah?

It was never my place to answer for what is not agreeable with AA or with GOD for whomever posts in this secular forum. I'm really done being the punk bitch for whomever feels they can talk to me as if I am Mr. AA or MR. AVRT.

I've always said I take what I need and leave whatever, and I don't play around with dogma or doctrine in religion, politics, recovery, AA AVRT... etc etc

You guys, meaning whomever, not just the last two posters before this post, needed for some reason to throw your misunderstandings of my experiences back on me for whatever reason. I have my ideas of why, but I would just get knocked around some more, like I did when I gave my personal views about Received's posts to me.

Yeah, my post is so bad, but what soberlicious says about me, that's way cool? Well, sure it is...

You guys realize that no matter what is said about me, you at the end of the day, took MY experiences, questioned me, and then said MY experiences are not working for YOU.

And when I finally get hurt and pissed off enough to say HEY!!

I now get the "treatment"

Like I said in a different thread weeks ago...

people work in cliques, talk back-channel, work their agenda... to sell rhetoric and snake-oil.

I'm not the bad guy here trying to get others to validate me. This thread was for those interested in working the AA with AVRT. It was never about comparing the two methods, which is what some people decided to do with my experiences.

What a lousy shame.

I'll say this: I didn't get my real life by playing dumb. I know when I'm being played and pushed around, not because of confusion, but because of total disagreement right from the start.

I said at the start of this thread, I didn't want debates, and I wanted people who shared from THEIR experiences. I never agreed to sharing mine, and then watch it get cut up and thrown away like useless garbage.

I'll also say this: when guys like me need to take cover, that speaks in more ways then what should be obvious.

And when I finally get defensive in a few posts...

Yeah. right.
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Old 04-09-2013, 10:18 PM
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Wow...disappointed to see that AA discussion has now infiltrated the secular forum?
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Old 04-09-2013, 10:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Elphaba View Post
Wow...disappointed to see that AA discussion has now infiltrated the secular forum?
Go figure, hahaha.

Well, you're not the only one, so take comfort in that, anyways.
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Old 04-10-2013, 07:14 AM
  # 419 (permalink)  
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Robby-
You were doing a very kind thing by sharing your story so openly. Who cares if it is AA or RR as long as yoiu are sober. What I gathered from this thread is that you started with RR and a BP... then as you moved forward you sought out AA. I may be getting this wrong but, I think that AA is an amazing program for living life on lifes terms and that many people can benefit from it. I dont know that I could work the steps and have a BP because it does not mesh in my brain like that but... Good for you on years of sobriety and thank you for your honesty.
Jess
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Old 04-10-2013, 08:13 AM
  # 420 (permalink)  
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Jess,

Thanks for your earnest sentiments, I'm appreciative no end.

There has always been reasons why I'm a RobbyRobot and not just Robby. This thread a case in point. My kindness was wasted.

We all only have our experiences to offer each other, and even to ourselves, for without personal experiences, we're all just cookie-cutter nothings.

I'm not dumb. And I've been played before, we all have at some time. I remember. But I'm no kid anymore. I also respect myself enough to know when I'm actually being a bully to whomever, and when its being done to me.

I have bullied no one. Or flamed them. Or whatever in this thread. My being accused doesn't make it so either, of course.

Interesting thread, indeed.
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