RobbyRobot

Playing together is such a personal experience for all of us, and although I won't agree that AVRT and AA play well together, I of course totally agree they can certainly work well together. Semantics?

I really do keep both models of recovery well apart in my mind, and my actions. For example, I don't bring or otherwise discuss AVRT in any AA meeting. I do AA at AA, and my AVRT remains not hidden as such, but private and isolated. AVRT works well in this way being nothing more than a set of techniques. Keeping my AVRT behaved, lol, does not lend itself to me as a great playing partner with AA. I can just imagine me freely sharing my AVRT with AA guys and AA in general. It would not be "fun" hence I don't think they play well together.

As an example of playing well together, Christianity and AA play well together, even though it is not required one be a Christian while doing AA. Certainly if I said I was a Christian at an AA meeting, nothing much would transpire. Same as if I talked about God, no big deal either. As another example of not playing well together, God and secular don't play well together, and my recovery program is agnostic in nature, and this forum is not someplace I would talk about my Christianity either.

As for the other way around, AVRT doesn't have meetings, social gatherings, etc. It's all work and no play with AVRT, for me, anyways.

I've no problem with others perhaps thinking how my interpretations miss the suggested point that actually AVRT and AA do play well together, or others may decide I'm just being semantically uptight.

AA at least as some social enjoyments.

jkb

Wasnt trying to be bent out of shape about it....lol

The wanting to drink issue is right where I am at in the RR book. The glaring question "Do I still want to drink... So I moved on over to my own thread regarding this.

Loved reading through your thread this morning...

bemyself

Catching up a bit here....just read through the recent few posts (this timezone thing can be a DRAG :-)).

I was thinking about where the cognitive dissonance b/n AVRT and AA comes from in me, only yesterday....

For me, at least, I tentatively concluded that the dissonance (for those who might endure it!) comes much less from AVRT itself as technique, a mental tool as Robby - and the book and AVRT seminars on SR make clear. That technique is something we do in our minds, and as Soberlicious and others have pointed out, the BP -> AVRT practice thing need never be even mentioned / announced to anyone else. It's an inside job, in the literal sense.

Where my dissonance comes from is, instead, from me attending AA - and, indeed, my occasional rehab outpatient groups - whilst also knowing, from a very close reading, Trimpey's views on 'recoveryism'. As most of you know, he goes into intense - and often very well-argued - analysis of said 'syndrome'.

When I was reading it, back a coupla months ago, I remember agreeing with several points he made - they tapped right into my own past, and present, resistances to ASPECTS [note] of my relationship with AA and even some of my outpatient groups. In other words, I resonated with some of his argument.

BUT, as some have observed in this thread (?) and others, his DEGREE of abhorrence towards anything like 'recovery supports [esp. AA]' verges on the same kind of fanaticism / slap-in-your-face element that one can sometimes see in AA people. By 'slap', I'm thinking of the Zen master suddenly whacking meditators with a stick, in effect saying to them: WAKE UP! Trimpey's discourse implicitly adds: 'you idiot! You've been conned! You're in a cult! blah blah blah'.

So, yeah, I reckon it's damn well his recoveryism language in my own head which causes me difficulties.

None of this may make sense, but any feedback welcome as always, crew.

Vic

RobbyRobot

I think it's best we don't talk a whole lot about whatever in relation to Mr. Trimpey in this forum. I certainly understand the temptation of course. I really just look past all that rhetoric and I do appreciate his insightful and expert writings concerning AVRT. An awesome book is RR:TNC for it's in-depth AVRT research and concise explanations.

Having said that, thank you Victoria for your share, and I'm sure you'll continue to sort out the noise in your head, and all in good time. I know for me when initially quitting, I really had some serious work to do to clear up my thinking processes. Big time.

It's so wonderful to see you being positive even when perhaps struggling and challenged with whatever current thinking/feeling processes. This is the attitude of a winner! Winners welcome honest adversity, and always keep their eyes on the prize!

Yay YOU!

RobbyRobot

Thanks, jkb. And sorry, I wasn't really meaning YOU were getting bent up actually. Unfortunately, I did a dumb generalization. My bad. Thanks for being cool about it all.

bemyself

Yeh, thanks Robby - I was having a minor rant there for a moment :-)

The most helpful part of your response was that, of course, there IS a lot of 'noise' in my / our heads. As Buddhism would have it, we have it basically all the time - the monkey-mind, of course. Such a brilliant image.

Indeed - I'm just about to head back on over to the AVRT thread itself, and briefly noted BacktoSquareOne having a convo about mindfulness / AVRT. There's the key, and one which I'm going to keep practising - or should I say, re-commence. Not a lotta real mindfulness goin' on when one's drinking, no, not a lot at ALL :-)

And thanks for your strong encouragement - it's one of SR's many great boons.

Vic

Nonsensical

I agree. It doesn't take us long to go from referencing AA to surreptitiously discussing it, does it?

Rookie mistake, I am learning.

Booniecat

I have to agree with much being said about RR. I got so much out of the AVRT material and it resonated with me when I read it. I use it a lot in my short but successful recovery. I also think the author goes way overboard on a lot of other issues. When I listen or read anything I look at it like eating fish. I eat the meat and throw the bones away. I got a lot of meat out of Mr. Trimbleys writing and had a pile of bones to set aside when I was done. I am thankful for the great help he has been in my decision to get sober and my ability to be sober.

soberlicious

I would agree about leaving opinions about the author out. While I find such musings interesting and I myself have some strong opinions on him myself, I can afford to have discussions like that since I am permanently abstinent. I think too much focus on his often zealous views could certainly get one off track when starting out. In fact, thoughts such as the following: "Wow, that JT sure is a nut job. I'm not reading anything he's written. Surely this AVRT is nothing but his crazy propaganda against recovery groups. I'm so not reading that bunk."...would be considered...wait for it...AV.

jkb

I must mirror what a lot of you are already saying. Yeah, one may not fully agree with AA or Trimpey. It is a personal type of experience. Taking what you need and leaving the rest has become my new motto.

BackToSquareOne

I've read that the APA was considering adding another disease to the DSM-5. Discussions are underway on whether to call it AVOT (addictive voice obsessive thinking) or just JT Syndrome.

ReadyAndAble

Geesh, soberlicious, until this thread I thought we agreed on almost everything!

In my case I would have preferred a little heads-up—the jolt of running into it unexpectedly in fact nearly led me to put the whole book down. Which would have been a big mistake given the valuable ideas in there; if that wasn't clear in my other posts, then I will correct that now:

I highly recommend the book.

In fact I highly recommend putting aside the many excuses to not try this, that, and the other thing. Because I absolutely agree those thoughts are being enthusiastically endorsed by AV.

soberlicious

R&A, we do agree on nearly everything because..well, you know, the whole "great minds" thing LOL. Maybe I didn't make myself clear. I see no problem with a heads up about his style, I was just pointing out that to someone starting out, they could use him as an excuse not to read the book. As you said (and I agree ) That would be a shame, since the info is valuable. Beyond that, for someone starting out, focusing more on him than on the ideas is a misuse of time. If one has not yet ended their addiction, there really isn't time for that. For those who have successfully ended their addictions, then sure, discussing POVs on him can be interesting. Those who are done drinking for good have the luxury of that kind of time.

I would also like to add that for you his style was a jolt, and for others it was a validation. All perspective.

ReadyAndAble

True, it is all relative. We are in perfect sync again, lol!

I don't really know much about AA other than what I've learned on SR and at the couple meetings I attended early on. I think it was a jolt mostly because I felt a sense of loyalty to my SR friends who have benefitted from AA, including our illustrious host on this thread.

Rob, thanks so much for starting this thread. Your perspective is really interesting and valuable to me. I also find the balanced, open-minded vibe here really welcoming. Very nice place to hang out and learn.

fini

Not a lotta real mindfulness goin' on when one's drinking, no, not a lot at ALL :-)

bemyself,
yeah, the opposite, though, seems rather useful:
pretty hard to engage in cpmpulsive stuff while actually being mindful/here and now.
being in/with what's going on right now shortcircuits the obsessive/compelled stuff quite nicely.
hm...mindfulness and AVRT are both "in this moment", yes?
says she, not really being familiar with either too much

soberlicious

I have a great deal of experience with the program in all its forms, as I was indoctrinated fairly young (probably 9ish years old) into alateen. I've attended alanon and AA on and off for many years, and have understood and worked the steps several times, in different ways...back to basics, in treatment, with a sponsor, on my own, the woman's way...I even ran an alateen group as a young adult. Also breifly attended the NA fellowship as well. I have very dear friends and family members who have been very successful with the program. I have also been close to countless others for whom the paradigm was not only ineffective, but detrimental. If someone is successfully working the program, they don't need any other input. They are having the desired results. It is when they are not having success, that is when some pretty hairy stuff begins to raise it's head.

I am not about one vs. the other. Never have been. I am about education and options. I am about helping the addicted reframe their thinking about themselves as capable. I actually do see learned helplessness as a real problem in the area of addiction recovery. That is not a "dis". That is not grinding an ax. That is not me being a big fat meanie pants. That is a well informed, albiet personal, opinion. I have no problem stating it.

RobbyRobot

Awesome wisdom, guys. Nice to hear of your shared experiences. Helpful to the cause of this thread.

BackToSquareOne

Here's a good question. What are the odds of AVRT working for someone stuck in the middle? What of the person who knows they need to quit but a big part of them still wants to drink or use. The type of person that's highly motivated while going thru withdrawal/detox but finds that their motivation slips away as soon as they start to feel better. That was me for many decades.

GerandTwine

100%! The Technique of Recognizing one's Addictive Voice, which inevitably requires a Big Plan, will "work for" anyone who actually uses it.

You say "That was me for many decades". OK, I'll bite. What 'are you' now?

BackToSquareOne

I threw in the towel for good in 2008 using mostly mindfulness. There was a big difference tho, I felt a "shift" had occurred. I knew I was done with it, my deck of cards was out of any desire at all to put myself thru any of that again. It took over 3 decades to reach that point so I'm not much of a success story.

In the past I was 100% sincere in my efforts but about 6 months was the best I ever managed in my earlier attempts. I have no way of knowing if a big plan would have made a difference or not. Is a big plan any match for free will, flux, flo and all of that? What if my free will wanted to resume my old ways?