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Old 03-03-2013, 03:28 PM
  # 21 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by bemyself View Post
I like how you can separate being an AA member whilst also learning / practising so many other tools; I just don't know - yet - how to avoid feeling slightly dishonest, even a bit schizoid! if / when I can't speak my own truths about the other things which resonate for me, when I'm with the dear AA people, especially my sponsor. There's the rub, for me anyway.

I'll watch this thread very closely to that end!
Hi Victoria, it's so awesome to have you now successfully completed your detox/rehab stint. You come across as energised and secure in your understanding that YOU can already enjoy and do so many varied activities and keep yourself importantly involved and self-directing your new sober experiences. Well done, bymyself!!

When I hang with AA members, I just don't think twice about how to share since I can talk shop with the best of them. I suppose it is like talking another language and living in another culture... similar experiences. When in Rome kinda thing you know?!

Another advantage is informal AVRT as a technique skill set has been used for centuries, and this helps me to blend my experiences under the thought-talk police radar no problemo. I also have no requirement to promote my personal choices as such, and so can tailor my shares into the proper mix to satisfy my principals and authenticity needs.

It is always surprising to me what a warm handshake, a sincere smile, and a happy attitude can accomplish when working f2f with people no matter their original boundaries as long as they feel respected and involved.
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Old 03-03-2013, 07:30 PM
  # 22 (permalink)  
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Thanks muchly Robby, for your support and awesome (your favourite word :-)) encouragement.

I quite like the analogy of 'when in Rome....' That can work for me....I think :-) I tend to say what's on my mind too readily, in all sorts of circumstances, not just AA, so I just need to keep my other recovery 'interests' to myself unless I have got to know another member sufficiently well that I know for sure, more or less, that they're a similarly eclectic type person.

I'll PM you about the sponsor issue so as to respect the boundaries of this thread.

Warm regards
Vic
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Old 03-04-2013, 04:29 AM
  # 23 (permalink)  
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hey all,

ok...i don't wanna rain on anyones parade...but....

When in Rome do as the Romans do is a slippery slope. I used that exact phraze once to a friend with a lot more time than I ever had...She said slippery slope, and she was right....

I will say that my teacher in buddhism did some when in rome stuff...but...it can come back to bite you. I guess the problem for me is my inability to handle presenting myself differently than who I really am in that moment...I think it's probably a bs ego problem I have...but it can lead me in to trouble when I try to blend and not cause trouble...just as much as being too troublesome can handicap me....

This quote is taken out of context of the time and way it was said, but on it's own...inspires me:

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.


I am doing "non-program" recovery right now because as much as each program offers, I am not comfortable participating in a workable program for some that my application may lead someone off a path that works for them.

OK...that wasn't well written..hopefully you get my drift..this isn't an english class so I'm gonna post this any way

LOL
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Old 03-04-2013, 07:09 AM
  # 24 (permalink)  
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Great thread. Thought provoking.

Let me add another big word to this discussion: bifurcated. My sense is that there are 2 parts to long term recovery from alcohol addiction:

1. Not drinking
2. Being OK with not drinking

My perspective is that AVRT gets you the first part. You tell your AV "no" and you stay sober.

But if your triggers/excuses have a deep root like previous violence in your life, traumatic event, unexpressed emotions, etc., then AVRT won't get you through the second part. Your beast has a lot of ammunition to throw at you. Even if you can fend off his attacks, you're not happy - you're just sober.

Other recovery programs seem to 'treat' these underlying triggers/excuses. They strive to make the addict more effective at dealing with emotional issues that are not otherwise being effectively dealt with. I can definitely see how that is beneficial for some addicts.

I don't consider myself to be in this category. I don't have any uncommon emotional stresses in my life. I've never been a victim of anything horrendous. I still have my job, my home, my family and my health. I didn't have much excuse to drink. I just did. Just NOT drinking is sufficient for me, for now.

Not that I am perfect, of course. I could be more organized, a better listener, exercise more, be more patient, etc. I just don't think it's anything I need external assistance and support for.

All that said, I will probably attend a meeting from time to time. I can see me being a 'blender'. I find it useful and uplifting to be in a room with others who have (a beast with) a maladaptive appetite for alcohol. I went to a meeting last Friday and a drunk man near tears admitted he wanted to stop drinking, but had no idea how. At the end of the meeting he traded the half bottle of wine he had in his coat for a white chip. It was a beautiful thing to have witnessed.
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Old 03-04-2013, 07:45 AM
  # 25 (permalink)  
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Ok... Robby,
Thank you for that clarification. I have not attended any meetings in a while and not at all since my BP (... and where I live AA is the only option) so, it is good to hear how you seperate one from the other. I truly appreciate you taking the time to post that and also to hear "about you". I did substance abuse counseling in my 20's (my degree is in forensic psych..prior to getting a DUI) and understand the frustration that goes with it.
Nonsensical-
You always make so much sense to me...lol. I am not ok yet with not drinking. I think that is where AA may help me. I feel extremely isolated and alone since getting sober. I have 30 days and intend on going to a meeting (if the snow lets up) tonight. For some silly reason I am petrified I will get there and someone will say.."YOU'RE NOT AA... YOUR RR". Silly thinking so I appreciate what you are saying....

I too will be keeping up with this thread. Thanks for starting it Robby...jkb
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Old 03-04-2013, 08:26 AM
  # 26 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by ananda View Post
hey all,

ok...i don't wanna rain on anyones parade...but....


This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.


I am doing "non-program" recovery right now because as much as each program offers, I am not comfortable participating in a workable program for some that my application may lead someone off a path that works for them.

OK...that wasn't well written..hopefully you get my drift..this isn't an english class so I'm gonna post this any way

LOL
You bring up an important point, Nands. For me, I actually DO have AA sobriety, I've been a member for over thirty years, so I've zero worries concerning authenticity. For others who might feel different about themselves, my understanding is they desire to be authentic in both AVRT and AA without losing out on either. It can be done, and this thread supports discussing the ways and options to achieve that goal.

Since AVRT ends where AA begins, the two 'ways' (AVRT is of course not even a way) can fit well into the tool set of whomever, even though it looks complicated perhaps, its actually simple enough when viewed with a willingness of keeping a separation of the two. It is important for us to realize each way can stand on it's own, and so using both is totally a personal choice, and not a required choice which somehow is superior to the original ways. For me, both ways satisfy me, i'm successful with both, and I won't give up either simply because I don't have to to be authentic and true.

I realize of course there is alot of rhetoric for both sides, but I'm almost deaf to all that noise. My recovery plan, and everyone else's too, is no ones business but mine and theirs respectively.

I certainly respect your choices to do a "non-program" and I don't have the slightest concern you are missing out on anything whatsoever, Nands.
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Old 03-04-2013, 08:46 AM
  # 27 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Nonsensical View Post
Other recovery programs seem to 'treat' these underlying triggers/excuses. They strive to make the addict more effective at dealing with emotional issues that are not otherwise being effectively dealt with. I can definitely see how that is beneficial for some addicts.

I don't consider myself to be in this category. I don't have any uncommon emotional stresses in my life. I've never been a victim of anything horrendous. I still have my job, my home, my family and my health. I didn't have much excuse to drink. I just did. Just NOT drinking is sufficient for me, for now.
Beautifully said.


Originally Posted by Nonsensical
All that said, I will probably attend a meeting from time to time. I can see me being a 'blender'. I find it useful and uplifting to be in a room with others who have (a beast with) a maladaptive appetite for alcohol. I went to a meeting last Friday and a drunk man near tears admitted he wanted to stop drinking, but had no idea how. At the end of the meeting he traded the half bottle of wine he had in his coat for a white chip. It was a beautiful thing to have witnessed.
I think it important here, and along with the point raised by Nands, that viewing AA members as others who have a 'Beast' is okay, as long as we also respect that most of those same members do not see themselves as having anything like a Beast within, and they are not wrong in their choices. To not choose to "see both" Beast and alcoholism as real choices to their respective owners, is to be on the slippery slope as spoken about I would suggest.

Some people can't see both as choices made, and for those folk, they indeed would have a problem with being authentic, IMO.

Yes indeed, an important discussion. I'm also not now saying you don't see both choices, Nonsensical.
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Old 03-04-2013, 08:57 AM
  # 28 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by jkb View Post
For some silly reason I am petrified I will get there and someone will say.."YOU'RE NOT AA... YOUR RR". Silly thinking so I appreciate what you are saying....

I too will be keeping up with this thread. Thanks for starting it Robby...jkb
I've been told exactly that many times, lol, from both sides of the discussion in my many years of experience with both. I have no problem with being challenged, and take it as a matter of course. People have a right to know for themselves what is what about somebody else, imo, and although I do expect to be believed when asked, I'm not much surprised when I'm not, and I learn a great deal about the nature of the naysayer, which then helps me to keep on taking the higher road. I'm encouraged by such challenges to my veracity.

I'm sure YOU will too, jkb, take the higher road. I'm glad I started this thread too. We're even all behaving ourselves, LOL.

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Old 03-04-2013, 08:59 AM
  # 29 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by jkb View Post
For some silly reason I am petrified I will get there and someone will say.."YOU'RE NOT AA... YOUR RR".
Why? Is it tattooed on your forehead or something?

While I've not attended any meetings yet I'm not opposed to it either. As Robby has mentioned AVRT does one thing and one thing only. I'm no where near far enough into my sobriety to know if that is enough for me or not. While on day 14 I'm feeling pretty good about things I have no idea what day 30,60,90, etc are going to feel like. To think I've solved my issues though would be incredibly naive of myself. The thing to remember is to keep an open mind to all options available and use them as appropriate. It's no different than working in my workshop - I use the right tool for the right task. Some of them I'm very comfortable with and others not but it is still up to me to recognize and use them as needed and when needed.

I have a good friend that has been sober for 20 years via meetings. He doesn't know I've taken the path I have but I look forward to seeing him and gain some of his perspective on all of this. He is one of very few people I would every confide in and as such, I need to make sure I keep a very open mind. I like to think of my mind as a sponge that has been soaked with booze all these years and now that I'm starting to wring it out a bit, there is plenty of room for me to absorb something new.
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Old 03-04-2013, 09:03 AM
  # 30 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by RobbyRobot View Post
It is important for us to realize each way can stand on it's own, and so using both is totally a personal choice, and not a required choice which somehow is superior to the original ways. For me, both ways satisfy me, i'm successful with both, and I won't give up either simply because I don't have to to be authentic and true.
ah, that would perhaps be better said as:... and I won't give up either simply because I don't have to be unauthentic and untrue in keeping both

'nuff said

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Old 03-04-2013, 10:51 AM
  # 31 (permalink)  
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Markinsf-
I know that you are right about it not being tatooed on my forehead however, I am in a pretty tin little community and when i did attend meetings I tended to see the same people over and over... Deep down I know that they could care less how I am keeping sober and what not... My fear is the sponsor question. I don't intend to get a sponsor right now or work steps. However, I need to go to the meetings. I need interaction with other alcoholics.
I will be fully honest and say that at days sober I am becoming bitter that I can no longer drink. I am thinking that maybe just one binge wont hurt... all AV which I see but, if I dont get out and hang around some other alcoholics then I am going to be "that miserable sober person" or "that drunk chick". Neither appeals.
When I did work AA for awhile we had a gut who used to just come to meetings.. he called it poaching meetings. I think I will become a "meeting poacher"...lol.
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Old 03-04-2013, 11:18 AM
  # 32 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by RobbyRobot View Post
I think it important here, and along with the point raised by Nands, that viewing AA members as others who have a 'Beast' is okay, as long as we also respect that most of those same members do not see themselves as having anything like a Beast within, and they are not wrong in their choices.
Agreed 100%. In addition to being pointless, walking into a meeting group and telling them their perceptions about their drinking issues are wrong is just plain bad manners. MamaNon raised me better than that.

I won't bring it up, but if someone ever asks me pointedly at a sidebar discussion I don't see any reason not to share with them what is working for me.
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Old 03-04-2013, 11:56 AM
  # 33 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by markinsf View Post
Why? Is it tattooed on your forehead or something?
The thing to remember is to keep an open mind to all options available and use them as appropriate. It's no different than working in my workshop - I use the right tool for the right task. Some of them I'm very comfortable with and others not but it is still up to me to recognize and use them as needed and when needed.
Beautifully put Mark. This is the way I see it too.
I am me, just an alcoholic trying to stay sober and feel comfortable about it so I will use whatever tools are at my disposal.
Some people might say I am in denial and not embracing AA 100% and that I am a dry drunk who will pick up again and might die.
Others on the other side of the fence might say that I am a superstitious fool for believing in a power greater than myself and a member of a "cult"...
Well, that's their problem. I always tend to be suspicious of individuals who state that it's "their way or the highway".
I think there are many methods to quit and stay quit (my Godfather has not had a drink or a drug in over 3 decades and he is not in any program) . I am just grateful to have the tools of AVRT, AA and also SR.
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Old 03-04-2013, 12:30 PM
  # 34 (permalink)  
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Here's the problem with not "being able to discuss AA itself" on this forum: AA is EVERYWHERE. It's the first program we think about when we're getting into trouble, it's the first program recommended to us by EVERYONE, it's the first suggestion you get from a councilor, whether that person works for a government healthcare system or an independent outfit.

AA is the New York Yankees, Manchester United, and the Dallas Cowboys all rolled into one. Almost everyone here has had an experience with it, whether it's just been thinking about it, trying it a few times, or a hardcore member. Some hate it, others love it, but all have an opinion on it.

You can't talk about baseball without mentioning the Yankees. You can't talk recovery without mentioning AA. We need to break it down somewhere, mix up some common sense talk with some zen and philosophy and digest it.

If they opened up an "AA Discussion" forum tab on this site it would be stuffed to the gills with comments and threads immediately. THIS is what people want to talk about.

The fact that we have to treat subjects like AA with kid gloves on a freakin' RECOVERY board is beyond absurd to me.
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Old 03-04-2013, 12:47 PM
  # 35 (permalink)  
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Think about it this way: say you're a Christian. Aren't you glad, as a Christian, that we don't practice that religion the same way they did 1000 years ago? Questioning of some of the church's practices, re-evaluating some of their methods, etc, helped that religion GROW into what it is today. We don't stone someone to death for working on the sabbath anymore, because people started saying "hey, that part kinda sucks".

Shouldn't we do the same with AA? If we're not allowed to question or criticize it on a recovery board, how will AA ever get any better? How can people get their questions in front of a relevant audience? It just makes sense to be able to criticize AA on a recovery board - in the end, discussions like that are the only thing that'll help AA become more effective!
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Old 03-04-2013, 12:58 PM
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I am not sure what i am using but really am enjoying this post. The year before I decided to quit I read everything I could find on alcoholism and its treatment. This included the Big Book, RR, Ellis's books, etc... I also read a bunch of memoirs of people who quit drinking and drugging in various ways.

When I quit 16 days ago, I just quit. I am a Christian so there was lots of prayer and bible study. I am a therapist so I use a lot of RET Ellis stuff. I got tons of ideas from RR and really latched onto the addictive voice idea and how to combat it. SR helped with some of the posts on controlling urges. I haunted the SMART Recovery website for a few months and got some more tools from them.

What does that make me? I really don't know but I am sober and feeling great. Sure, I have urges but I also have urges to have affairs, run stop signs and cheat on my income tax but I don't do them. My goal is to see drinking in the same way I see immoral or criminal activities. Just not worth the pain they cause.

I am not really a meeting person and am very thankful for SR. For me it is my meetings and my support group.
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Old 03-04-2013, 02:03 PM
  # 37 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by bigsombrero View Post
The fact that we have to treat subjects like AA with kid gloves on a freakin' RECOVERY board is beyond absurd to me.
This thread will be closed if we don't respect the stated rules. I support those rules. I'll request myself that the thread is closed if we don't respect the rules.

It has already been well said why the rules forbidding deep talk about AA in this forum are in place.

AVRT and AA do not play well together.
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Old 03-04-2013, 02:11 PM
  # 38 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by bigsombrero View Post
Think about it this way: say you're a Christian. Aren't you glad, as a Christian, that we don't practice that religion the same way they did 1000 years ago? Questioning of some of the church's practices, re-evaluating some of their methods, etc, helped that religion GROW into what it is today. We don't stone someone to death for working on the sabbath anymore, because people started saying "hey, that part kinda sucks".

Shouldn't we do the same with AA? If we're not allowed to question or criticize it on a recovery board, how will AA ever get any better? How can people get their questions in front of a relevant audience? It just makes sense to be able to criticize AA on a recovery board - in the end, discussions like that are the only thing that'll help AA become more effective!
I think people in AA may tell you that it is fine the way it is....
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Old 03-04-2013, 02:11 PM
  # 39 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by bigsombrero View Post
Shouldn't we do the same with AA? If we're not allowed to question or criticize it on a recovery board, how will AA ever get any better? How can people get their questions in front of a relevant audience? It just makes sense to be able to criticize AA on a recovery board - in the end, discussions like that are the only thing that'll help AA become more effective!
There are already places within SR to discuss AA in depth. This forum is not the place for such discussions.

http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...mparisons.html

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Old 03-04-2013, 02:12 PM
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Seriously, folks. Don't discuss AA itself in depth in this thread. It doesn't matter if its bashing or not. Please. Thank you.
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