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Old 02-28-2013, 07:37 AM
  # 121 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by soberlicious View Post
Well, to be honest I do tend toward the naive side...I do think others usually have good intentions. It's part of my "program" if you will, to believe we are inherently good. Real life experience has shown me otherwise, but I do still try to hold fast to that belief anyway.

As far as "selling snake oil", I cannot imagine how one would possibly benefit from trying to pull the wool over another's eyes? Or why such an endeavor would even be desirable?
Yeah, well to be honest, I can't tell you how many times I wait for you and a couple of others, to chime so I can get a better understanding. For me, you seem to draw out the gems I would otherwise miss by skipping and scrolling.
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Old 02-28-2013, 07:43 AM
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Thanks guys.

I can "hear" the respectful disagreement in your posts. Nonetheless, I have mine own senses to be responsible too, same as you guys, and like I said, I have a different view.

As for pointing out a "snake-oil" post, this would be a problematic task, since folks are free to give opposing opinions of course, and the whole discussion goes south thereafter. I can though describe my meaning.

Its when a poster speaks more to popularise the way and means they discovered their new life of sans-alcoholism, and less their own struggles and successes within their own experiences. When they generalize that since it worked with them, it can work as well with others, if others would only give it the proper effort. When they take others shares and reduce them to bite-sized out-of-context statements and then proceed to say that the posters' offerings fall short of the desired goals, expectations, requirements, what-have-you of a generalized solution requiring the validation of others.

I'm the last one to care how I, or anybody quits alcohol and drugs, and gets on with their lives, so I'm rarely interested in sharing that this worked for me, so you try it too.

I'm more for relating my challenges, failures, and successes with others sharing theirs. Its how I can successfully do AVRT and AA even though the two 'experiences' are at serious odds with each other.

Does this help explain my meaning?
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Old 02-28-2013, 07:58 AM
  # 123 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by soberlicious View Post
Well, to be honest I do tend toward the naive side...I do think others usually have good intentions. It's part of my "program" if you will, to believe we are inherently good. Real life experience has shown me otherwise, but I do still try to hold fast to that belief anyway.

As far as "selling snake oil", I cannot imagine how one would possibly benefit from trying to pull the wool over another's eyes? Or why such an endeavor would even be desirable?
Yeah, real life has shown me otherwise too, but I don't hold to that belief anyways, all else being equal.

Snake-oil selling becomes desirable for whomever to satisfy their own defensive position they are on the right and worthy path in their own sans-alcohol lives. Frequent generalizations is a sure mark of such endeavors, followed by advice from the salesman to invite the audience into the so-called winning solution.

Salesman are always defensive and quick to judgement. They are also back-slappers and fans of the popular flavor of the day.

I also want to add that salesmen (persons) can truly and honestly believe in what they are selling or promoting. Belief and honesty has nothing to do with the behavior I'm talking about. Its not about integrity. Its about going beyond their experiences and into the realm of promotion.
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Old 02-28-2013, 08:10 AM
  # 124 (permalink)  
 
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Selling snake oil: knowingly selling fraudulent goods for one's own personal gain.

Sorry, I don't see it. Could be my rose colored glasses though. I like wearing them. Those and a good pair of shoes make for a pretty good day. Yes, I'm naive.

I have no problem stating strong opinions when they are solicited. A poster starting a thread is an invitation to discussion. That's why we are here. Sometimes I will say something someone doesn't like. The reasons why they might not like my opinion are myriad.

When they generalize that since it worked with them, it can work as well with others, if others would only give it the proper effort.
Ahhh yes...this is real. "It works if you work it." Of course people are passionate about what has worked for them. I do see most people saying things like "see if this works for you", or "this may make sense to you" or something of that nature.
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Old 02-28-2013, 08:11 AM
  # 125 (permalink)  
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Robby, here is the opening post from NAT. As the thread has proceeded to where we are now, I have to ask myself, how helpful has it ended up being for NAT or anyone else?

Originally Posted by Newatthis34 View Post
Hi everyone,

So I have made/am planning to make my Big Plan and already I think you can see my problem. I cannot seem to distinguish between the rational decision that I have to make it, and the notion that by admitting that, I have in fact made it... Does this make sense?

I thought I had made my Big Plan back in April, it felt authentic, I believe I meant it, etc. I lasted 5 weeks. How do I know it will be different this time?? Should I perhaps have a private little ceremony to mark the occasion, would this help? I'm worried.

The issue for me is really centered around the notion of commitment. I think if I could nail that vis-a-vis alcohol then I will succeed. I mean I would never cheat on my husband, regardless of temptations that may arise I am committed to him and our relationship and so it's not a worry for me. I guess I have to find a way to approach my Big Plan in the same way.

Any insights gratefully received!
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Old 02-28-2013, 08:12 AM
  # 126 (permalink)  
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Yeah, I realized that pointing out a particular post as snake-oiled was a bad idea after I posted my last.

Originally Posted by RobbyRobot View Post
Does this help explain my meaning?
Somewhat.
To me 'snake-oiled' connotes disingenuousness, and your description falls short of that. I'd still call it 'evangelical'. Apparently snake oil is in the eye of the beholder.

Personally, I like hearing about what others are doing to stay sober. It's 99.9% of the reason I joined this forum. I was looking for something that would work for me. Multiple attempts at making the AA square peg fit me had not succeeded.

Although I have found something that is working better than anything I have previously tried, I am still interested in what other people are doing. I love learning about the various methodologies out there. I like hearing about other people's successes and learning from their failures. I don't need to re-create the wheel. S'matter o' fact, I'd like to hear about your personal melding of AVRT and AA.
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Old 02-28-2013, 09:22 AM
  # 127 (permalink)  
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I appreciate the responses of course, but its not my province to convince anyone of my sense of persons speaking beyond their experiences and into the realm of promoting whatever. I do realize people want to share with me their response to my understandings, no problem, I can handle in return differing opinions and experiences.

Originally Posted by Received
Robby, here is the opening post from NAT. As the thread has proceeded to where we are now, I have to ask myself, how helpful has it ended up being for NAT or anyone else?
Interesting. You perhaps expect me to answer for others? That is not possible for me to do really though right? I will say, I don't regret any of my participation on this useful thread.


Originally Posted by Nonsensical
To me 'snake-oiled' connotes disingenuousness, and your description falls short of that. I'd still call it 'evangelical'. Apparently snake oil is in the eye of the beholder.
Actually, I spoke of it being disingenuousness in a earlier post when I first talked about my thoughts on 'snake-oil salesmen'.

Originally Posted by soberlicious
Selling snake oil: knowingly selling fraudulent goods for one's own personal gain.

Ahhh yes...this is real. "It works if you work it." Of course people are passionate about what has worked for them. I do see most people saying things like "see if this works for you", or "this may make sense to you" or something of that nature.

Yeah, I suppose you can take the route of dictionary definitions and bring me to task, but it doesn't address my deeper meaning.

Yeah, people adding disclaimers of "see if" or "this may" doesn't cut it for me. Promotion is still promotion to my understanding.

Okay, well thanks folks, lol. We don't need to agree, and so onward we go. I'm open to more discussion, but lets stick to our actual experiences and not to knocking me around because you don't agree or don't understand. I'm not about to reverse myself, lol. Nothing wrong with disagreement. I mean, because obviously I don't agree with you guys either.

Cheers!
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Old 02-28-2013, 09:40 AM
  # 128 (permalink)  
 
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Yeah, I suppose you can take the route of dictionary definitions and bring me to task
Take you to task? Oh, Please...
but lets stick to our actual experiences and not to knocking me around because you don't agree or don't understand
I would respectfully ask that you do the same.
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Old 02-28-2013, 09:43 AM
  # 129 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by soberlicious View Post
Take you to task? Oh, Please...
I would respectfully ask that you do the same.
No problemo.

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Old 02-28-2013, 10:00 AM
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The horse is dead?

But I still have 3 more hours at work today. Sigh.
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Old 02-28-2013, 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Nonsensical View Post
The horse is dead?

But I still have 3 more hours at work today. Sigh.
:horse
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Old 02-28-2013, 10:23 AM
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LMAO...whew I need a cigarette...
kidding Did I mention I'm a non-smoker now? I separated from the desire and assigned it as "not me", then dismissed it. Worked like a charm. That's just my experience though. Not saying it will work for others.
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Old 02-28-2013, 10:34 AM
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Yeah, been years since I quit cigs (2005?) and every once in awhile... wtf... a smoke comes into my awareness. Not a craving as such, more like I remember using smokes as a back door to stress. Glad to be rid of those lousy smokes, lol.
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Old 02-28-2013, 11:24 AM
  # 134 (permalink)  
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Crikey that was some reading

To me the 'see if' and 'you may want to try' talk is fairly new to me. When I joined - very recently - I was still greeted with so when are you going to a meeting? Everything else has failed only this will work... I paraphrase but there was certainly no - see if this works for you, perhaps try this... I remember having to explain that I was a single parent and couldn't get out in the evenings... blah blah thinking why should I have to explain myself?

Originally Posted by RobbyRobot View Post

Its when a poster speaks more to popularise the way and means they discovered their new life of sans-alcoholism, and less their own struggles and successes within their own experiences. When they generalize that since it worked with them, it can work as well with others, if others would only give it the proper effort. When they take others shares and reduce them to bite-sized out-of-context statements and then proceed to say that the posters' offerings fall short of the desired goals, expectations, requirements, what-have-you of a generalized solution requiring the validation of others.
Exactly this ^^^^ I posted my last thread about needing structure and making times in the day to do certain things, get out more and one of those things was not spend ALL my time on SR. I got told - so the only recovery method you have is SR and you're going to give less time to that too.

Sigh. I think my response was appropriate. That was a prime example though of my offerings, desired goals, requirements, whatever falling short.

As it is DD came out with chicken pox at the weekend, so bar the segway thingie all thoughts of normality went out of the window this week anyway lol bless her. She's fine and has been a trouper. This time next week Rodney
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Old 02-28-2013, 11:34 AM
  # 135 (permalink)  
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I do think though that there is a very human inclination to try and convince others of what has worked for you, not charlatanism necessarily but as Nonsensical said more evangelicalism (?)! However what I don't find, or at least I don't anymore, helpful is someone telling me to read the book again, or that I'm not understanding something correctly. (Even though that's what prompted me to start the thread initially).

I began reading about AVRT in order to find some way, any way, that could help me understand how to quit drinking. I understood what I read, I just couldn't apply it properly. Clearly this is my problem, something in my mind that resisted or found issues to rail against. Perhaps it's best summed up as a disconnect for me between the theory and practice. I also understand that AVRT doesn't promise to transform your life, only to help you quit booze. But I think that those two things are not as easliy divided as it's presented in RR. Thing is, I want to transform my life! Otherwise what's the point?? The main thing though is just not to drink, and then figure everything else out.

So I'm still applying a bit of AVRT but not in isolation. I wanted to read RR, close the last page and be 'cured'!! Needless to say that did not happen. But so far since I've read the book when I've wanted to drink the difference between doing it or not has been a conscious decision - either in favour of my whole program for a better life, or for instant gratification. So for me I DO need to keep the other goals in my life in my mind, and not just say 'shut up Beast'...
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Old 02-28-2013, 11:47 AM
  # 136 (permalink)  
 
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So for me I DO need to keep the other goals in my life in my mind, and not just say 'shut up Beast'...
Of course, which is completely appropriate. And that's the point. AVRT is about quitting alcohol, it is not a design for living. Quitting alcohol for good makes all the other things possible. AVRT is not concerned with providing pointers for personal growth. It assumes once the fog has clear from abusing alcohol or drugs, then one is perfectly capable of securing the resources to create a happy, healthy, well rounded, even spiritual life if that is what one desires. To be clear, nothing in AVRT says personal growth is not good, healthy, and/or important...it is just saying it is outside the realm of AVRT, which is strictly a means to ending addiction.
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Old 02-28-2013, 12:00 PM
  # 137 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Newatthis34 View Post
I do think though that there is a very human inclination to try and convince others of what has worked for you, not charlatanism necessarily but as Nonsensical said more evangelicalism (?)! However what I don't find, or at least I don't anymore, helpful is someone telling me to read the book again, or that I'm not understanding something correctly. (Even though that's what prompted me to start the thread initially).

I began reading about AVRT in order to find some way, any way, that could help me understand how to quit drinking. I understood what I read, I just couldn't apply it properly. Clearly this is my problem, something in my mind that resisted or found issues to rail against. Perhaps it's best summed up as a disconnect for me between the theory and practice. I also understand that AVRT doesn't promise to transform your life, only to help you quit booze. But I think that those two things are not as easliy divided as it's presented in RR. Thing is, I want to transform my life! Otherwise what's the point?? The main thing though is just not to drink, and then figure everything else out.

So I'm still applying a bit of AVRT but not in isolation. I wanted to read RR, close the last page and be 'cured'!! Needless to say that did not happen. But so far since I've read the book when I've wanted to drink the difference between doing it or not has been a conscious decision - either in favour of my whole program for a better life, or for instant gratification. So for me I DO need to keep the other goals in my life in my mind, and not just say 'shut up Beast'...
The parts in bold make complete sense to me.

I've actually not finished the book yet. I'm happily plodding on in my sobriety and I don't feel I want to be studying it constantly. In bed I'd rather read a crime thriller and drift of with a good murder in mind... Hmmmm.

I want also to think I'll be 'cured' once I have finished. I know this is not going to happen, I know I have all the tools now. I also know that it will not transform my life. That said... no hangover, a stable mind, more money, more patience, less anxiety and sense of contentment even if not happiness will drastically transform my life, and has been doing so. Without these transformations my goals would not be achievable.

I'm also very aware that I'm a I want it all and I want it all now person.

I did make my Big Plan. I drank once since. It was an absolute conscious decision - a stupid one after nearly a month sober. I haven't made another Big Plan. I'm not sure why not, it knocked my confidence some (AV anyone?!)

I think the thing to remember is that we are all getting there and we are all looking at achieving the same regardless of how long or by what route.
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Old 02-28-2013, 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by soberlicious View Post
Of course, which is completely appropriate. And that's the point. AVRT is about quitting alcohol, it is not a design for living. Quitting alcohol for good makes all the other things possible. AVRT is not concerned with providing pointers for personal growth. It assumes once the fog has clear from abusing alcohol or drugs, then one is perfectly capable of securing the resources to create a happy, healthy, well rounded, even spiritual life if that is what one desires. To be clear, nothing in AVRT says personal growth is not good, healthy, and/or important...it is just saying it is outside the realm of AVRT, which is strictly a means to ending addiction.
So succinctly put. There's me having a waffle about it - surprise!
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Old 02-28-2013, 12:15 PM
  # 139 (permalink)  
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Smile

Originally Posted by Newatthis34 View Post
Clearly this is my problem, something in my mind that resisted or found issues to rail against.
It's only your problem in that AVRT might not be a panacea for you, and you'll need to continue searching for solution(s) that will finally suffice. It's not like you're broken because AVRT isn't one stop shopping for you. (Hopefully none of my comments ever suggested that.)

MyTimeNow - I hear ya. It is my observation that some recovery methods are more actively promoted than others, especially in the newcomers forum. I try to greet newbies with an invitation to look around the forums and learn about the various recovery methods. (My sig block obviously advocates for my fave.) I wish someone had done that for me when I first got here. For the record, that was 3 years ago.

I had joined in 2010. When I came back in January I couldn't remember my user name, or even if this was the same recovery forum I had been at previously. I just made a new account. A few days ago I went searching and found my old account. I read some of my posts back then, and the replies. The mantra of 'go to a meeting' was pounded like a war tocsin.

It has become much better since then. Other points of view are more tolerated. The meeting people are still quite zealous, but not nearly as much as they used to be. And I was only here for about 9 days (this time) before some people to whom I will always be grateful led me to AVRT.

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Old 02-28-2013, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by RobbyRobot View Post

Interesting. You perhaps expect me to answer for others? That is not possible for me to do really though right? I will say, I don't regret any of my participation on this useful thread.
Yeah, sorry about that. I started to type a response to you and ended up deleting it and posting something more general and then forgot to edit your name out of it.

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