RobbyRobot

The quietness of the AV is a positive result secondary to the recognition of the AV. AVRT without a forever plan ie a BP, is like actually having a plan to eventually drink again, to put it bluntly.

jkb

I guess I can see that but, why "poke the beast" p*ss it off and "wake it up"? Cant situations be dealt with as they arise? Or am I playing a dangerous game here? My point is when I had the damn BP all I thought about was not drinking now no BP and the thought rarely has crossed my mind. I am not living not to drink (which is wise advice you gave me RR) I am just living. Make sense.

RobbyRobot

Yes, which is why a BP is not actually something of a common commitment as normally thought of as a commitment. Of course, the whole thread has already spoken to this, and I've been clear on my experiences already in this thread.

Situations can be dealt with as they arrive, but not because of choices any one of us make, but more because that is how reality works, first in first out kind of thing when dealing with issues. We like to think we have delayed our responses, but in fact things change only in real present time. Not choosing to choose is still a choice made, and life doesn't care one way or the other when we internalise ourselves so as to think we have a grip on things.

So, life happens in real time, if this is honestly appreciated, power of choice becomes very effective, as you're suggesting. When in fact though life gets jammed-up and delayed, that is an illusion really, (the jammed-up experience) and life is still moving forward as always. Power of choice is useless when practiced in the past or any possible future.

GerandTwine

I don't know what plan you had, but it certainly wasn't the Big Plan of AVRT.

I've tried to figure out how to lie to MYSELF but I've never been able to figure out how to do it. (If someone could help me figure out how to lie to myself I would be eternally grateful.)

It's very clear to me that if I tell another person "I will never drink again" and then I go out and drink some more, it's obvious I was lying to that person and that I knew I was lying when I said it.

WHAT WORDS, AND FEELINGS WERE GOING THROUGH YOUR MIND AT THE VERY MOMENT YOU BROUGHT THAT FIRST "after-big-plan" DRINK TO YOUR LIPS? PLEASE, WHY WON'T ANYONE WHO HAS "broken their alleged Big Plan" ANSWER THIS SIMPLE QUESTION? (Hint: It exposes why they knew they didn't have a Big Plan in the first place!!)

GerandTwine

If I have a habit of tapping my foot when I'm not standing and
if I tell another person "I will never tap my foot again" they would think I'm crazy.

If I have a habit of picking my nose and
if I tell another person "I will never pick my nose again" I think they would know it was a lie right from the start and that I didn't mean it
because nose picking is a quick motion that doesn't take much time at all to complete, and those arm and hand motions can pretty easily slide under the radar of deliberate conscious choice.

But, if I have decided to end my habituated drinking, and
if I tell a person that "I will never drink again" by never taking voluntary action to:

Drive a vehicle towards, walk towards, and/or turn towards alcohol,
Read labels on containers or listen to the words of another person offering alcohol
Reach out my arm towards and grasp in my hand a container holding alcohol
Do all the actions of purchasing alcohol, or deliberately deciding to accept it from another person
Open the container, possibly transferring the alcohol into another container, or taking a glass of alcohol from an offering person's hand
Looking closely at the alcohol to not spill as I voluntarily bring the container of alcohol to my mouth
Pouring the ethanol into my mouth being prepared for the anticipated sensations that go along with drinking a diluted flammable organic fluid

it is easy for me to know absolutely such a plan, the Big Plan, could be made with perfect adherence in perpetuity.

Thousands of people are making such plans every day, but even if no one else were, I know my Big Plan is iron-clad.

jkb

GT-
My exact thought was "I cant stand being in my head anymore and I want to drink to get out of my head". And I agree it was not a BP obviously. I didnt even catch that I wrote that.

jkb

GT-
But you tell me why must I wake the damn beast up with a BP. It has been quiet and easy to deal with lately UNTIL I think about BP's and then it goes "No way you can do it....why bother...look at results from last time" Blah, blah, blah... Cant I just deal with the situation as it arises and not cause trouble in my head. Jess

GerandTwine

But you just said you knew you didn't do it "last time". You never made the Big Plan. So, what you're hearing is AV chatter about the IDEA of making a Big Plan.

GerandTwine

Exactly, if you had a Big Plan, you would have easily identified your quote as quintessential, but perfectly harmless, Beast activity. Without the Big Plan, you had no basis for separating IT from YOU.

So, you had some drinks and nothing really bad happened, and it's certainly possible to get along that way for a while, but it can be risky over the long haul.

jkb

GT-
Seperation of IT from ME. However, it is part of me... I guess I see it as a self-destructive portion of myself. A part I need to learn to deal with and not give in to. As far as a BP I see how a BP will in essence create a seperation. Maybe I am not committed to not drinking? I dont think I intend to drink but, I didnt think I intended to drink prior either. Thank you for your patience and responses. jkb

GerandTwine

Do you believe you can determine way in advance that you will NOT drink if some time in the future you think and feel "I cant stand being in my head anymore and I want to drink to get out of my head"?

jkb

GT-
I believe that to be the VERY big question. I would like to say "oh I definitely woulldnt because...." but no I guess I cannot say for 100% certainty because I have no plan not to. You have most definitely given me food for thought.
I will try thinking about a BP and see what happens. Really listen to my beast. However, once I do this he will "wake up". Its just been so peaceful in my head the last few weeks...lol... Thank you, Jess

jkb

Ok so....

after much serious thought on the matter of why I have not made a BP I came to the conclusion that never is not for me now. By that I mean this: Last night I thought about a BP and said I will never drink again. My beast chimed in "oh yeah you will during football season or vacation or just whenever". I said "ok well I am not drinking now. Then it came to me about in the book when he says "it is always now". I realized I had been shutting my beast up for the past few weeks by saying "not now". This would essentially work forever because it will never not be now. Make sense? I dont know if this is a good idea or bad idea it is just what I have been doing. So, GT when you ask what will I do when the thought occurs again.... well if it is now (then) I will say Im not drinking now.

My confidence was thoroughly shaken by my last attempt at a big plan and now I think I just cant make another. This is working now. Eventually maybe I will need to go the NEVER route. Thoughts????

Jess

freshstart57

I will never now drink works, Jkb. I latched onto that when I was learning to become present in the present, and I still find comfort in that statement of resolve. I still use the 'N' word, though, as you notice. I think it is an essential part of my Big Plan, and it serves to keep the fence between me and my beast solid and in good repair. By saying 'never', that beast cannot find a loophole or some future condition where I will accept drinking again. If it tries, then the sirens sound and the lights start flashing. Aha! I see you again. Ya bum.

GerandTwine

No.
Quite frankly I think you are cherry picking a phrase from the book to mean the opposite of the intended purpose to fluff up the pillow for your Beast.

jkb

You mean he will just hang around forever or what? I am confused

jkb

I thought so... theres that never again but, it seems ok there to me because it also has a now. I have to live in the now... thanks freshstart

RobbyRobot

Yes, your thoughtful statement of your experience of your time awareness makes sense. Another way to put it is "time awareness is always in the now" and "awareness is always in present time" and "power of choice can only happen in real present time"

Addiction Voice Recognition Technique is more of an art then an applied science, and in itself is never more then a self-created "thinking technique" to more easily quit drinking permanently. What makes sense to YOU, while being abstinent, is more valuable then all the rhetoric in the world naysaying against YOUR real experiences. People don't have to agree with you to "make right" your understandings. YOU'RE very capable of standing up for yourself, explaining yourself, and moving on.


How, when, why, you make or don't make a BP is always your own call. It's not "wrong" to have an understanding that "now" is not the time for YOUR BP. As you say, eventually you may need to go the never route.

There is a difference about being ignorant or arrogant about what a BP does, and you're not either of those, Jess. You already know a BP decisively brings awareness of a distinct separation of IT/Beast and YOU/self by showing how AV is always working against the BP.

I believe sooner then later you would do best to create a BP which absolutely describes you never drinking again. Having said that, don't for a second believe that because you're using "it's never not now" in a creative way, that somehow you're just fooling yourself.

Be patient with yourself. As you gain confidence with your continuing non-drinking lifestyle, know this about yourself: you only have to know what works for you, and not for everybody else under the sun.

Me, I always take what I need, and leave the rest, no problemo. This "way" works well for more people then they themselves even want to admit publically, lol.

And BTW folks, I'm not into "debating" (again) what I have posted. If it makes sense to you, great. If not, that's okay too.

GerandTwine

Read Non's original post about "It REALLY does get easier" and explain what part of that is confusing.

fini

jkb,

not sure if you're asking for thoughts just on the avrt angle on your own thoughts. if so, please ignore the rest of this post, as that's not where it's coming from. here are my thoughts on GT's question:
no, i cannot determine way in advance what i will or will not do in the future. not with certainty.
i can have an intention. and i can make and carry out plans and activities in service of that intention. do what i think will support that goal.
all this i do.
i intend, fully and with whole heart, to never drink again. i've intended this right from my sobriety date years ago. the "never" was and is paramount in that intention.
though i do the actual carrying out in today. of course.now.

the determined never, the proof of the pudding, is the result. never is the intention as well as the result of doing the things that will keep cementing it in, so to speak.

no idea if any of this makes sense to you. it is definitely not avrt, but then again, it's in keeping with the original "commitment issues"