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AVRT meetings

Old 03-23-2020, 02:41 AM
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AVRT meetings

I have heard it said here many times that once you read the book, get a good handle on what the AV is and how to recognize it, a person is all set and once they make their Big Plan along these lines, they do not need any meeting nor anything else for that matter.
That has never been the case with me. I have done all that yet have struggled.
At the moment, I read my notes in the morning reminding me to be ready for IT and to recognize IT as being the AV because I tend to forget, plain and simple. I also attend meetings of SMART and AA.
I wish RR has not put a stop to their meetings, not sure what the reason was behind it or should I say the real reason behind that decision.
I was wondering if there was a way to revive those meetings at least online, because it really does help to hear and interact with others regarding how they use RR in their daily life if only to keep this thing fresh in my mind at least for a time being.
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Old 03-23-2020, 03:11 AM
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Apparently meetings were intended to teach the application of AVRT for a few months, then people were supposed to stop attending, having learnt to practice their 'internal locus of control' AV recognition and dismissal.

I understand the meetings were abandoned, because people began to believe that they were sober 'because' of meeting attendance, i.e. 'external locus of control', which was not the founder's intention.

Personally, I believe a few months meeting system is an excellent idea, to provide a detailed grounding in the technique.

That said, I've never read a better description of the Addictive Voice, than this posted on SR by Derringer, who attends AA meetings:

Originally Posted by Derringer View Post
I was listening to a YouTube video this morning and it wasn't about drinking but it talked about how moments of temptation, of any kind, come to us fully wrapped in justifications and other deceptions like everyone else is doing it, it's only one little, who will know, it's okay it won't harm you or anyone else, I won't give in next time but just this once and on and on it goes.

BUT

If we do succumb, that little voice that whispers so seductively then completely flips on us.

I can't believe you did that, why can't you just be like other people, what is wrong with you, everyone will know, you're a horrible person.

So I guess, be careful about listening to voice A if you want to avoid voice B.
Voice A and B are Addictive voice.
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Old 09-23-2020, 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted by shakeel
AVRT meetings

I have heard it said here many times that once you read the book, get a good handle on what the AV is and how to recognize it, a person is all set and once they make their Big Plan along these lines, they do not need any meeting nor anything else for that matter.
That has never been the case with me. I have done all that yet have struggled.
Hi Shakeel,

If you “have done all that”, then you certainly realize that YOU are not struggling at all, IT, your Beast with its Addictive Voice is struggling. If you’ve “got a good handle on what the AV is and how to handle it” then when you experience thoughts and feelings supporting drinking some more, you will immediately remember “I will never drink again and I will never change my mind” and recognize all those thoughts and feelings as NOT YOU. It is the BEAST that is struggling to get you to drink again.

It is very easy to not swallow alcohol. IT must struggle to try to get you to drink some more - by the most likely means possible. IT knows what YOU know, IT sees what YOU see, IT hears what YOU think and IT knows what YOU feel. IT knows everything about YOU, YET, YET, IT cannot move a single muscle in your body without YOU going along with IT. That is one of three huge advantages YOU have over IT.

At the moment, I read my notes in the morning reminding me to be ready for IT and to recognize IT as being the AV because I tend to forget, plain and simple.
The second huge advantage is YOU know IT has only ONE purpose, by YOUR own decision to isolate away from YOU but still inside of YOU, any (and ONLY) all thoughts and feelings supporting the future use of alcohol.

The third huge advantage YOU have over IT, is how OBVIOUS it is when YOU find yourself close to alcohol, and especially when YOUR mouth may get close to alcohol. Your eyes and nose are right there next to your mouth. Since IT has no control over YOUR muscles, every one of the very complex series of actions required for alcohol to get into your mouth and swallow it is actually YOU simply going along with IT for that next drink.

So, it is hard to understand how you “tend to forget, plain and simple” as you swallow more alcohol after you claim to “have done all that reading and getting a good handle on the AV”.

I also attend meetings of SMART and AA.
I wish RR has not put a stop to their meetings, not sure what the reason was behind it or should I say the real reason behind that decision. I was wondering if there was a way to revive those meetings at least online, because it really does help to hear and interact with others regarding how they use RR in their daily life if only to keep this thing fresh in my mind at least for a time being.
YOU were wise to choose this forum to get some AVRT feedback. I’m sorry it took so long, but I see you’ve been signed up here for almost 10 years with only about two posts per month. So, I chose this date where we are on the opposite side of the sun from when you made your OP to provide some basic AVRT information. This kind of providing AVRT information is the only sort of interaction with other people that is NOT driven and support by the BEAST of AVRT and its Addictive Voice. So, being in casablanca, it is clearly opportune of you to post here to end your addiction. May you succeed in becoming a permanent abstainer using AVRT with your Big Plan.

GT

PS: and don’t hesitate to post for more information about AVRT.


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Old 09-23-2020, 07:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Tatsy View Post
Apparently meetings were intended to teach the application of AVRT for a few months, then people were supposed to stop attending, having learnt to practice their 'internal locus of control' AV recognition and dismissal.

I understand the meetings were abandoned, because people began to believe that they were sober 'because' of meeting attendance, i.e. 'external locus of control', which was not the founder's intention.

Personally, I believe a few months meeting system is an excellent idea, to provide a detailed grounding in the technique.

That said, I've never read a better description of the Addictive Voice, than this posted on SR by Derringer, who attends AA meetings:

Originally Posted by Derringer View Post
I was listening to a YouTube video this morning and it wasn't about drinking but it talked about how moments of temptation, of any kind, come to us fully wrapped in justifications and other deceptions like everyone else is doing it, it's only one little, who will know, it's okay it won't harm you or anyone else, I won't give in next time but just this once and on and on it goes.

BUT

If we do succumb, that little voice that whispers so seductively then completely flips on us.

I can't believe you did that, why can't you just be like other people, what is wrong with you, everyone will know, you're a horrible person.

So I guess, be careful about listening to voice A if you want to avoid voice B.
Voice A and B are Addictive voice.
Hi Tatsy,

Voice A is the Addictive Voice of AVRT.
Voice B is not the Addictive Voice of AVRT, it is the voice of the fully human addicted person realizing the moral failing of drinking some more. Voice B is what got me to quit for good when I did. Definitely not the AV.

The AV is not dumb. It realizes the lack of wisdom of connecting drinking with moral failing and incompetence. It will work on figuring out how to be more careful next time because it can never be wrong to indulge in something that has habitually felt SOOooo Good. (Original Denial: as posted by Algorithm earlier in this subforum) Link (Original Denial)

GT

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Old 09-25-2020, 11:05 AM
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I was listening to a YouTube video this morning and it wasn't about drinking but it talked about how moments of temptation, of any kind, come to us fully wrapped in justifications and other deceptions like" VOICE A: everyone else is doing it, it's only one little, who will know, it's okay it won't harm you or anyone else, I won't give in next time but just this once and on and on it goes.

BUT


If we do succumb, that little voice that whispers so seductively then completely flips on us.

VOICE B: I can't believe you did that, why can't you just be like other people, what is wrong with you, everyone will know, you're a horrible person.

So I guess, be careful about listening to voice A if you want to avoid voice B.

GT, you've accepted that VOICE A is the AV. Yet my experience is that VOICE B is also, absolutely, the AV because it's a prelude to the suffix - "so you might as well drink because you're such a loser".
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Old 09-25-2020, 08:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Tatsy View Post
I was listening to a YouTube video this morning and it wasn't about drinking but it talked about how moments of temptation, of any kind, come to us fully wrapped in justifications and other deceptions like" VOICE A: everyone else is doing it, it's only one little, who will know, it's okay it won't harm you or anyone else, I won't give in next time but just this once and on and on it goes.

BUT


If we do succumb, that little voice that whispers so seductively then completely flips on us.

VOICE B: I can't believe you did that, why can't you just be like other people, what is wrong with you, everyone will know, you're a horrible person.

So I guess, be careful about listening to voice A if you want to avoid voice B.

GT, you've accepted that VOICE A is the AV. Yet my experience is that VOICE B is also, absolutely, the AV because it's a prelude to the suffix - "so you might as well drink because you're such a loser".
Tatsy,

Thank you for your expansion of your borrowed quote to include an an additional third sentence which your AV thought up (which I label sentence “C” “So, you might as well drink because...”). Sentence “C” does not, cannot, change the words of sentence “B”. Sentence “B” still stands on its own as a response to sentence “A”.

Like sentence “A”, the new sentence “C” IS from the Addictive Voice. They both support the future use of alcohol.

Any reader of the the original quote can take it on its face, which is essentially if you want to avoid getting in trouble from drinking, don’t drink. Sentence “B” actually offers motivation for not repeating sentence “A” and is thus more than just a benign sentence having nothing to do with drinking; the logical conclusion of sentence “B” is to never drink again. I’ve done that, and so have millions of other permanent abstainers.

Sentence “C”, though, is a wild card for the AV. It can be added to an infinite number of benign sentences (such as “I am going to the grocery store...” or “It’s 5pm in the afternoon...”) and still make sense as a compound sentence (or “suffix”ed sentence) to an addicted person (“...so I might as well drink because...”).

To someone who is using AVRT and has ended their addiction with a Big Plan, wild-card-sentence “C” gets shut down immediately, short-circuited by the Big Plan. It’s just too obvious, gets spread too thin.

The AV likes more indirect routes to try to confuse new Big Planners such as encouraging ongoing discussion with people in recovery who are not using AVRT and talk about the AV in a slipshod fashion. A lot of AV goes whooshing by unrecognized even within conversations about the AV.

AVRT is actually pretty simple, “Does this thought or feeling support the future use of alcohol/drugs?”

AVRT Matrix (Addictive Voice Recognition Technique (AVRT) Discussion — Part 3)

GT
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Old 09-26-2020, 03:36 AM
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Originally Posted by GerandTwine View Post
Voice B is not the Addictive Voice of AVRT, it is the voice of the fully human addicted person realizing the moral failing of drinking some more. Voice B is what got me to quit for good when I did. Definitely not the AV. GT
GT, I can state with absolute sincerity, based upon my lengthy experience of using AVRT, that my Beast uses Sentence B as AV - which I immediately notice as AV and shut-down - before it progresses to/adds the Sentence B suffix.

For clarity, I do not experience the AV Sentence C that you have compiled: because I shut-down the Sentence B - which is AV to me. I merely added the suffix to Sentence B, in order to respond to your post directed to me #4.

Shakeel opened this thread and said s/he was struggling with recognising AV. So I quoted an AV description which reflected the sneakier version of AV which I hear (Sentence B) which is a drink thought by demoralisation. Whereas you say your experience of Sentence B is not AV but "realizing the moral failing of drinking". Obviously, as a unique human, I do not have the same experience of, nor interpretation of my thoughts as AV: as you do of your thoughts. As such, I would not suggest that your interpretation is wrong.




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Old 09-26-2020, 03:38 AM
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GT, returning to Shakeel:
Originally Posted by shakeel View Post
I wish RR has not put a stop to their meetings, not sure what the reason was behind it or should I say the real reason behind that decision.
I was wondering if there was a way to revive those meetings at least online, because it really does help to hear and interact with others regarding how they use RR in their daily life if only to keep this thing fresh in my mind at least for a time being.
Do you have any suggestions that may help?
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Old 10-30-2020, 07:12 AM
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It has been a while since I checked on this thread. Great replies. Tasty, I have ideas regarding meetings, but it is up to RR to rethink this issue. I have no monopoly on this thing.
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Old 10-30-2020, 07:16 AM
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@GerandTwine
"So, it is hard to understand how you “tend to forget, plain and simple” as you swallow more alcohol after you claim to “have done all that reading and getting a good handle on the AV”.

Yes, if I am not constantly reading about AVRT, after a while if the obsessive thought of drinking comes, my brain soehow gets hijacked by the AV before I get the chance to recognize what is going on. Thus, my question regarding RR meetings.
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Old 10-30-2020, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by shakeel View Post
@GerandTwine
"So, it is hard to understand how you “tend to forget, plain and simple” as you swallow more alcohol after you claim to “have done all that reading and getting a good handle on the AV”.

Yes, if I am not constantly reading about AVRT, after a while if the obsessive thought of drinking comes, my brain soehow gets hijacked by the AV before I get the chance to recognize what is going on. Thus, my question regarding RR meetings.
Besides making direct contact with Rational Recovery, this forum is the only place I know of that you can converse with people about AVRT; and not only that, you can do it from Casablanca, so your desire to learn AVRT better has definitely got you to the right place. Just keep posting your questions, and give some detail about how alcohol actually gets into your body without AVRT ever crossing your mind.

About your brain being hijacked by the AV before you get the chance to recognize that you’ve swallowed a bunch of alcohol; check out the part on “Vertigo” in the book Freshstart sent you - “Rational Recovery, The New Cure” and let us know how it goes.
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Old 11-01-2020, 02:50 AM
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I am going to go over the vertigo part in the book again. that's a good idea.
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Old 11-26-2020, 06:51 AM
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WE are not computers. Drinking/Not Drinking is a binary equation. If the sole answer was to recognize and disregard the AV, we'd be done here.

Being MORE schooled in AVRT did nothing to help me with the unbidden, mostly subconscious thoughts or feelings that invited AV to suggest drinking as a panacea. Jack Trimpey takes no stance on those feelings. Those are outside the purview of AVRT.

To identify and counter the thought, "I must drink" is helpfully addressed by AVRT. Easy peasy. To identify and resolve the underlying causes that used to bring me to that thought was very hard work. Not surprisingly, the result of that work was to firm up the binary-ness of the drink/not drink equation.

Using the laser point of AVRT is effective for some people (including myself) to identify the mechanism of addiction. That is clearly sufficient for some. Like a localized cancerous tumor, the affliction is healed. But for others (including myself) the pre-cancerous cells also need to be addressed. This work is necessarily done outside of (but helpfully buttressed by) AVRT.

Discussions of AVRT need not exclude the reality of factors beyond (or before) addiction. But I do agree that AVRT meetings would be pretty much a waste for anyone who has already grasped the concept. Struggling is not always a symptom of AV, but if I DO choose to drink ever again, I have no problem with conceding in advance that the AV was absolutely in play.

But re-explaining that to me when I already know that? That would (and has) been less than helpful. I've learned that support and healing for those pre- cancerous cells is not to be found in AVRT, just like Jack said. So there's really no use seeking that help here. But we could be useful in acknowledging that struggle does exist for some and AVRT is not the solution for every ill that ails ya.
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Old 11-26-2020, 06:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Obladi
WE are not computers. Drinking/Not Drinking is a binary equation.
It is exactly because WE are not computers that the binary problem of to drink or not to drink is best answered with a binary solution.

If the sole answer was to recognize and disregard the AV, we'd be done here.
It is not “the sole answer” but it is absolutely “a complete answer” especially if one does not avoid using AVRT on the answers to the inevitable question: “Will I ever drink again?”

Being MORE schooled in AVRT did nothing to help me with the unbidden, mostly subconscious thoughts or feelings that invited AV to suggest drinking as a panacea. Jack Trimpey takes no stance on those feelings. Those are outside the purview of AVRT.
Again, it is because WE are not computers that AVRT uses the simple Structural Model of Addiction to render moot the infinite number of “unbidden” thoughts and feelings WE have available to us that might precede AV activity. (I think Tatsy mentioned she learned we have 70,000 thoughts a day?)

To identify and counter the thought, "I must drink" is helpfully addressed by AVRT. Easy peasy. To identify and resolve the underlying causes that used to bring me to that thought was very hard work. Not surprisingly, the result of that work was to firm up the binary-ness of the drink/not drink equation.
AVRT encourages people to accept that “must drink” feeling comes from the same place as “must breath” and “must eat”.

Using the laser point of AVRT is effective for some people (including myself) to identify the mechanism of addiction.
The laser point of AVRT does not identify the mechanism. It is the Structural Model that identifies the singular “deep pleasure seeking” appetite mechaninsm.

The laser point of AVRT is different. It is a simple dissociative gimmick; a binary gimmick; a language gimmick; a virtual spatial identity me/not-me gimmick; and was devised on understanding how millions of people have been ending addictions since time immemorial pretty much all by themselves.

That is clearly sufficient for some. Like a localized cancerous tumor, the affliction is healed. But for others (including myself) the pre-cancerous cells also need to be addressed. This work is necessarily done outside of (but helpfully buttressed by) AVRT.

Discussions of AVRT need not exclude the reality of factors beyond (or before) addiction. But I do agree that AVRT meetings would be pretty much a waste for anyone who has already grasped the concept. Struggling is not always a symptom of AV, but if I DO choose to drink ever again, I have no problem with conceding in advance that the AV was absolutely in play.

But re-explaining that to me when I already know that? That would (and has) been less than helpful. I've learned that support and healing for those pre- cancerous cells is not to be found in AVRT, just like Jack said. So there's really no use seeking that help here. But we could be useful in acknowledging that struggle does exist for some and AVRT is not the solution for every ill that ails ya.
As you state, the rest of your post can make sense for some recovering addicts outside anything to do with AVRT and may even be wonderful for addicted people who choose to expand their reasoning to stay stopped beyond the structural model here in today’s world of burgeoning knowledge about psychology and the human brain’s operation. But within AVRT, the rest of your post would be called AV activity because if not drinking means you must know all this stuff, then IT will suggest you might as well drink if you can’t figure it all out.

In a nut shell, it boils down to my avatar caption. AVRT is “Not The Way way, just the way.” And there are a lot of The Way ways.

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Old 11-27-2020, 04:46 AM
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GT, my post wasn't really about understanding AVRT as much as it was trying to help shakeel with this:
I have heard it said here many times that once you read the book, get a good handle on what the AV is and how to recognize it, a person is all set and once they make their Big Plan along these lines, they do not need any meeting nor anything else for that matter.

Shakeel, you're not necessarily missing a thing in regard to AVRT. It's really not all that complicated. Dealing with the automatic association is easy. "Sure, of course I'd think about drinking because it's a holiday - that's just the work of my neural pathways. IT is likely to suggest that drinking is a good idea at holidays for a good long time, maybe forever. But that's dumb. I don't drink." In addition, it was vitally important to me to recognize that the more insidious dis-ease that leads to beast activity that spurs the AV to speak up can be addressed, but not within the construct of AVRT.

Wonder of wonders, I have no desire to counter GT's point-by-point dissection of my post with my own rapier intellectual response.
That's a solution I found outside the confines of AVRT.

O
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Old 11-27-2020, 07:50 AM
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Hi Shakeel,

It is clear you would LIKE to use AVRT and have diligently read all about it in a book Rational Recovery, The New Cure that Freshstart sent you. I hope you do not forget that you can look inside to remind yourself about AVRT at any time and hopefully you can even carry it around with you because you mentioned that you repeatedly find yourself forgetting all about the simple AV gimmick all the way through the complex process of going to get alcohol and then drinking it (which I think is particularly difficult over there in Islamic Morocco).

So, with that in mind, here are 2 questions for you right now. First, think about your desire to attend a live meeting of people later on where other people will talk to you and remind you what it is you have forgotten about AVRT.

When you think about drinking and feel like you’re about to decide to drink, what would be the best solution?

1 - Open your book and remind yourself what you have forgotten about the AV

2 - Wait until later today or tomorrow when there might be that meeting where other people could remind you about AVRT.

The second question is: Do you think the number 2- answer is coming from YOU or your Addictive Voice?

GT
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Old 04-19-2021, 08:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Obladi View Post
Discussions of AVRT need not exclude the reality of factors beyond (or before) addiction. But I do agree that AVRT meetings would be pretty much a waste for anyone who has already grasped the concept. Struggling is not always a symptom of AV, but if I DO choose to drink ever again, I have no problem with conceding in advance that the AV was absolutely in play.
I'm new to Rational Recovery, although the gist of it resonates so well with me, because I've been doing it intuitively almost since I started to get well. I sense that this is an interesting discussion, but I confess, I'm having a hard time following it. I think I could if I took more time and studied it very very carefully taking breaks to digest small parts at a time. Why is this? The book was kind of the same way. I got it. I got it, but some of the parts I just flew through as they seemed necessary to me. Part of that may because I'm of the notion that in my situation, if things ain't broke, you don't need to fix them. And now I'm feeling derelict in my studies. But maybe I'll come back to that and finish it more thoroughly. From this thread, I do now understand that the method may not be that intuitive for many of us, and I'm sure that if I study it more, I'll find somethings I don't understand in the book either. What I do know is that the parts I've discovered on my own have served me well for so many years.

As far as the Big Plan, I got that almost right away, never questioned it, and just did it. I've probably been aware of my AV for most of my life, although I really grasped it's danger when I started to deal with my alcohol problem.

But all that blather and apology to respond to the first thing in this thread that I understood well enough to need to respond to. You said:
but if I DO choose to drink ever again, I have no problem with conceding in advance that the AV was absolutely in play.
Having embraced the Big Plan, I have so often wondered what possible reason could there ever be that would cause me to drink again? I came up with one that might beyond my control, insanity, but I'm really stretching for something there, because I've never been insane. Knock on wood, and lets disregard that.

The only reasonable explanation would be that I accepted bad advice from my AV, which still after 25 years pops up and at most makes some silly comment. But could I be seduced by it ever? No because I've never stopped being vigilant, always on the lookout paying attention for when it invades my thoughts. I hear someone saying, "But I'm not going to go around for the rest of my life worrying about when my AV might take over."

I'll just say that it not some superhuman task to stay aware, and here's why. I rather obsessed about it early on, some may say carried to an extreme, but eventually, it becomes habitual. You just don't stop doing it. But here's the really wonderful thing about it. I does not infringe on one minute of my time smelling the roses, watching a pair of spotted fawns cavorting in my yard in June, or debating some interesting philosophical issue. It is so second nature that it interferes with nothing. And it doesn't mean I must close myself off from something else. And I am still free to take in more and more of my environment and the things around me.

Sobriety is not about closing your mind off to things. It should be about opening up to more and more experiences, vigilance being one of them, and I find that happening now, although later in life than I would have wished. I still close off parts, sometimes quite consciously when I know they are harmful, and another reason to make keeping tabs on your AV is not just about you drinking. Call it Voice A and realize that it makes all sorts of plans for you to do stupid things that are personally harmful. It's important to monitor that station, because you never know when it's going to broadcast. Just be ready to listen so you can turn the volume down, and separate it from reason.

I'm not sure why I have to say all this. I guess mostly because I just wanted to be a part of all this, and I hope to learn more. I'll read the book again. It's not unusual, I'm well into my third reading of James Michener's Alaska, and I've got another rather obscure book that I've read more times than I can count. It's called A Short History of Nearly Everything. There's just too much in it to absorb in one reading. I've given copies of it to three of my friends who can't get into it, but I've met a few others that like it a lot. OK, I'm done. Promise.


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Old 04-21-2021, 08:10 AM
  # 18 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by DriGuy View Post
I'm new to Rational Recovery, although the gist of it resonates so well with me, because I've been doing it intuitively almost since I started to get well. I sense that this is an interesting discussion, but I confess, I'm having a hard time following it. I think I could if I took more time and studied it very very carefully taking breaks to digest small parts at a time. Why is this?
Hi DG,

I believe it is because there is SO MUCH Addictive Voice talk within this thread that is either addressed tangentially or not identified at all. It would be a good exercise in AVRT to take this thread and highlight all the AV talk.

The book was kind of the same way. I got it. I got it, but some of the parts I just flew through as they seemed necessary
I think you meant “UNnecessary.”
to me. Part of that may because I'm of the notion that in my situation, if things ain't broke, you don't need to fix them. And now I'm feeling derelict in my studies. But maybe I'll come back to that and finish it more thoroughly. From this thread, I do now understand that the method may not be that intuitive for many of us, and I'm sure that if I study it more, I'll find somethings I don't understand in the book either. What I do know is that the parts I've discovered on my own have served me well for so many years...
I believe the reason the RR book is so long (AVRT doesn’t take that long to describe and understand) is because there is SO MUCH Addictive Voice in our society at large. It has become institutionalized. So Trimpey spends time creating a framework for detaching from that. It is important and useful to read the glossary at end of the book and understand those terms as there defined.

You have made about 2.5 posts per day every day here over the last 2.5 years since you joined SR; and you have 25 years of abstinence and over a decade of no f2f meeting attendance. AVRT recommends disconnecting all life activities as a permanent abstainer from the Technique itself as practiced so speedily with the Big Plan. You have not done that as you stated recently you came to this addiction recovery forum seeking general social interaction (not that you were here to carry the message to others in order to secure your own recovery). This doesn’t mean you are at risk of drinking again, but in AVRT terms it is AV activity to backtrack into the recovery community once you have a secure permanent abstinence; unless you have a clearly stated AVRT supportive purpose to be here as I do.

I think Alleyce has recently said she is “too selfish” to be here purely altruistically. That is normal. I am here purely altruistically to keep AVRT pristine. That is unusual. That’s why I appreciate this subforum of “Permanent Abstinence” created just over three years ago to be a “safe” place to discuss AVRT and expose the Addictive Voice more completely.

GT

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Old 04-23-2021, 06:40 AM
  # 19 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by GerandTwine View Post
Hi DG,

I believe it is because there is SO MUCH Addictive Voice talk within this thread that is either addressed tangentially or not identified at all. It would be a good exercise in AVRT to take this thread and highlight all the AV talk.
I've been aware of you doing that, and it's starting to rub off. Now I find myself doing it, but just in my head.

Originally Posted by GerandTwine View Post
I think you meant “UNnecessary.”
Yes, when I finally caught that mistake, it was way past the forum time limit to make corrections.

Originally Posted by GerandTwine View Post
I believe the reason the RR book is so long (AVRT doesn’t take that long to describe and understand) is because there is SO MUCH Addictive Voice in our society at large. It has become institutionalized. So Trimpey spends time creating a framework for detaching from that. It is important and useful to read the glossary at end of the book and understand those terms as there defined.
I didn't read the glossary. It was part of the things I skipped as I assumed was Trimpey was just driving his point home. The reason I was so lax at that point, was I felt I understood it well enough. I understand Trimpey, or maybe more correctly he resonates so much with my experience that I feel like I've got it. And then there's a the part of me being secure in my recovery. There is no need to explore the minutiae. Am I wrong? Could be. I've been there before, although not about never drinking again, but perhaps I could glean more understanding. But you know, I don't believe I need Trimpey's level of expertise. I'm secure.

Originally Posted by GerandTwine View Post
You have made about 2.5 posts per day every day here over the last 2.5 years since you joined SR; and you have 25 years of abstinence and over a decade of no f2f meeting attendance. AVRT recommends disconnecting all life activities as a permanent abstainer from the Technique itself as practiced so speedily with the Big Plan. You have not done that as you stated recently you came to this addiction recovery forum seeking general social interaction
That's fine AVRT recommends that. I understand the point it's trying to make. But it's a recommendation, not an order. I'm not going to flee from alcoholic recovery discussions. It is a subject of great interest. People write books about it, and devote their lives to it, including Trimpey. Leaving the community behind does not need to be an obsession. But I understand what he's trying to point out.

Originally Posted by GerandTwine View Post
(not that you were here to carry the message to others in order to secure your own recovery). This doesn’t mean you are at risk of drinking again, but in AVRT terms it is AV activity to backtrack into the recovery community once you have a secure permanent abstinence; unless you have a clearly stated AVRT supportive purpose to be here as I do.
I'm going to disagree here. First, you are correct that this is/was about social interaction. I had just gotten tired of a poorly monitored forum infested with trolls and was looking for a less toxic environment. This was a logical place to look, because the format of such a place demands people are helping each other, and if done properly that means a more civil environment. And yes, since I am here being supportive in what meager way I can seems like an appropriate thing to do. What would the alternative be for me? Was my subconscious AV calling me back to a pointless exchange of unnecessary discussion about alcohol, or worse yet wanting me to drink the stuff? I guess it's up for you to decide that. I've already decided.

Originally Posted by GerandTwine View Post
I think Alleyce has recently said she is “too selfish” to be here purely altruistically. That is normal. I am here purely altruistically to keep AVRT pristine. That is unusual. That’s why I appreciate this subforum of “Permanent Abstinence” created just over three years ago to be a “safe” place to discuss AVRT and expose the Addictive Voice more completely.
And you are doing that. I noticed that days ago. You're message is clear to me. You are here to explain and not be side tracked by misunderstanding or objection. Although as a side issue, it may come across to others as judgemental. I don't think it is, and I recently backed off on that a bit myself after watching and understanding you. You are doing a good thing. Like Trimpey, you are driving the point.

BUT... here you are in a recovery group. You explain clearly you are not here as a response to your AV. BUT... here you are in a recovery group. Now can you apply your perspective of yourself to your perspective of me? Or do our levels of expertise or some other nuance make your purpose of being here different from mine? We are both here talking about alcohol. I'm not going to drink, and I doubt you will either. That's good enough for me.

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Old 04-23-2021, 08:59 AM
  # 20 (permalink)  
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BUT... here you are in a recovery group. You explain clearly you are not here as a response to your AV. BUT... here you are in a recovery group.
Ahhhh, yes, that “recovery group” would ever first bring to mind people reading or posting on a “permanet abstinent based recovery” online forum to learn what is supportive of the pledge (such as AVRT) and what is not supportive of the pledge (all the Addictive Voice activity inside and outside of their heads).

Now can you apply your perspective of yourself to your perspective of me?
I think we all do this all the time.
Or do our levels of expertise or some other nuance make your purpose of being here different from mine?
I take this as a rhetorical question because why I’m here is clear, and you must know why you are here.
We are both here talking about alcohol. I'm not going to drink
How can this not be a prediction?
, and I doubt you will either. That's good enough for me.

We’re not talking about alcohol. We’re talking about how to recover from addiction with the pledge and AVRT here on this subforum.
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