GerandTwine

I understand, and I believe if you express to us your truth about your plans for the future use of alcohol, that will even better lead you to a deeper understanding of the answers you are seeking.

naz111

I come from a long history of 12 step (13 years) and left 2 years ago because I continued to "relapse."

The only idea that makes sense to me is to quit for good. However, after countless attempts I can't seem to get there. I keep continuing to reverse my intent. Which seems rather insane considering how important this is to me.

I've read RR, studied AVRT, recognize. But cannot separate in those times that it is needed. Not only the lack of separation, but it also involves the lack of presence of mind to stick to my decision and feel conviction.

I want to pledge, but I don't know what is different from all the other times. How do I make it REAL?

Also - intuitively I feel that a Big Plan must come before any real AVRT can take seed and sprout. Having the never, under zero conditions, in place naturally changes the quality of thoughts.

Dee74

Welcome to SR Naz

D

naz111

thanks! Any thoughts?

Dee74

I didn't want you to think noone was reading, but no, Naz - my experience of AVRT is pretty much limited to what I read here.
Other folks will be along who will be able to provide you with guidance

I drank until I couldn't drink any more - it was literally drink and die or choose to live.
It worked for me, but not a way I recommend.

I do recommend the support here tho - it's kept me on the straight and narrow for nearly 15 years.

D

naz111

thanks dee, I appreciate the response!

dustyfox

Hi Naz, I have used AVRT to stop.
In the first few days and weeks I didn't feel it was REAL, I mean I really didn't feel my own commitment. I did feel it sometimes. My own experience was that I had to dig really deep into myself, through layers and layers of the AV, and it has if I am honest taken months to really feel it. I did take it one day at a time, but I knew I was working towards something.

I had to take a leap of faith and believe that eveything I had read here on this thread, particularly by Gerandtwine, but others too was true. And it is true. But we are weak when we first start this journey and so staying here, reading over and over these threads will help to make your commitment stronger.
I can only offer my experience and it is a work in progress, I am sorry not to be able to offer any greater insight, but I think you will succeed as long as you stay close to this forum and be prepared to dig deeply into your own reasons and desire for stopping.

dustyfox

I must add- that saying my sobriety is a 'work in progress' is not to say that I have not made a commitment , I have. 'The work' is simply the part of recovery that happens after the commitment to stop, which is how to deal with the world sober.

naz111

Thanks Dustyfox! When you say you didn't feel your commitment, do you mean you didn't feel all the good feelings that comes with ending your addiction (the ACE)?

This is how things tend to go for me when I make an attempt to make a Big Plan. I feel AMAZING. Grateful. Start seeing my life free of this hellish cycle. Then slowly it feels like things get dark and depressing. And then the rationalization steps in (AV creeping up). I feel it. My husband senses it before anything even happens. And then, knowing then it is pure AV, I identify with it and then act. Then afterwards there's a lot of "how did this happen, how could I make sure this doesn't happen again, this is hopeless, I am helpless, never going to get out of it, etc etc." Followed by wanting to run back to the 12 step rooms, knowing that it hugely added to my problem in the first place with the powerlessness idea.

I think I give too much power to the AV. I am able to recognize, but I don't dismiss, disregard, or use any of the techniques.

dustyfox

What I mean is that deep down when I said 'I will never drink again' - although I felt the ACE for the first two days the real sense of commitment when I look back was always a bit weak - because the AV was still within me speaking in a whisper that maybe after a year I could have a drink again. I think what I am saying is that it is good to say and mean 'I will never drink again' but the actual knowledge that you really will NEVER drink again, for me anyway, became absolute later.
It is possible to just stop, because at some point eveyone on this forum has done so. Staying stopped is the aim - staying stopped will happen when we know and believe that drinking is bad for us, and will ruin our lives, health and relationships. Then we then recognise the AV for what it is and shut it down. Shut it down by posting here, going for a walk, eating some ice cream, having a glass of water, etc. We KNOW when the AV is talking to us. Because any thought at all which involves having a drink is the AV. If we listen to the AV we know already where it ends. At the beginning it fell like a superhuman effort for me to stop - I mean I really felt as if I had done something so immense and I felt utterly exhausted from doing it. That's because when we stop we are doing something immense!

dwtbd

Have you also identified that the doubt in your ability to remain abstinent is also AV?

It seems you identify the desire for alcohol as an inevitable and irresistible force that leads to drinking . The “flip side” of that coin is that you are constituted in some such manner that your ability to resist the urge for more alcohol is a flaw you can not “overcome” and the proof is presented by stressing on the ‘again’ of the ‘happening’.

You say you are familiar AVRT, so I assume you are familiar with idea that the Beast ‘speaks’ to you through the AV . The AV has access to your vocabulary and given that foundation has the ability to appear to “us” as “us” as opposed to being an aspect or part of “us”. Focusing on that frame you can see that you can identify the thoughts that originate from IT. One of the strategies IT will use , is to prove ‘powerlessness ‘ by focusing on past ‘failures’.

When you make a Big Plan , it is setting a heretofore never priorly existing personal paradigm, “evidence” that having failed to “live up to” a BP in the past , so “evidence” of failing when one was never actually committed to the idea of never again no matter what , isn’t evidence of anything at all. Accepting the doubt in your ability is by definition not separating from AV.

Assume the totally ‘irrational’ premise that you can assign a 100% level of confidence in your ability to see a drink approach the area below your nose and act to not allow your arm muscles to tip the glass and not allow your throat muscles to swallow the booze, any other frame , any doubt in that ability is AV, and totally’ignorable’.

Doubt is not the same experience as desire , but it is there for only one reason, ITs plan to ensure future More.

What is Your Plan for future alcohol use ?

naz111

There was a point while a member of the 12 step program, and having come out of a devastating relapse, that I could not accept anything OTHER than quitting for good. My sponsors didn't accept this notion, but I believed it deeply and didn't care. I believed that drinking was over for me, that one drink would send me into an unimaginable hell which I would never accept. Not an option. The problem was the alcohol and not my thinking - remove that no problem. I had almost zero AV. When I felt it coming, I would distract myself to avoid it taking over my mind. I also used a lot of imagery of what it had taken from me. It took a mental effort, but worked. However, I never dealt with the AV because I by force, didn't allow it into my thoughts.

A year later, I had to take some medication, it awoken the AV and I didn't know how to overcome it. I lived out that belief that one slip lead to infinite. My Beast's dream.

I 100% agree I never made a real decision to REMOVE the OPTION completely. If that were the case, I would not consider accepting any thought to the contrary. And as uncomfortable as it got, I simply would not given in. I also probably would not welcome the AV into my thinking which is my current approach since I am believing the more I am exposed to it, the better I can handle it under all conditions.

What I am afraid of is lying to myself when I say I am done for good and not knowing I lied until I pick up again.

Yes - I see all self-doubt as AV. And that I believe it is me not separating from it. I don't know how to separate from it.

dwtbd

I don’t think we can actually lie to ourselves, I used to operate with that frame of mind but I think that was because it was a pretty comfortable and widely touted form of bs.

We can evade, downplay , rationalize ect, but to actually convince ourselves an untruth is real and believe it , not so much.

”I will never drink again and I will never change my mind” is a very jarring statement to contemplate , irrational on its face given our history of indulgence and our difficulty/refusal to ‘comply’. On one level it strikes as meaningless as a vow to never breath again and not change our mind , one would be literally countermanding a prerequisite for existing, that’s how the Beast views it.

Never is jarring , the good news is as jarring as it ‘feels’ it doesn’t get experienced all at once .

Right this second you know you can resist the urge , no matter how tremendous the effort would appear, and this exact second also. Never is the accumulation of all the manageable Nows we encounter. It isn’t and won’t ever be a believable self lie to say you couldn’t manage this second .

The confusion and consternation against making a Big Plan is only in place as an impediment to making one .

naz111

Yes, I do believe ultimately we cannot lie to ourselves. The truth is always the truth. Can't change it. I never understood step 1 in the 12 steps and no one could explain it to me. How could I be powerless in not doing something? And once I take a drink, something outside of me is supposed to stop me? And what does being "good" have to do with not drinking. So much crap.

Also, if I am truthful about my attempts in the past, they were just that, attempts. With the backdoor open. If the AV got loud enough, convincing, if I got uncomfortable enough, I just went along with it knowing that I will eventually have quit for good. Just not today. It kept me kicking the can down the street until it took years of my life. I was making plans to stop while it was easy, and then when it felt difficult for long enough, I gave in.



Yes it is jarring. And for good reason if actually made! Never means, no matter how badly I feel, no matter how strong the desire, no matter how good or bad my life becomes, no matter the past false attempts, and it no longer matters if I can handle it or not. I think AVRT naturally occurs after a Big Plan is made.

Yes absolutely I can resist the urge in this moment, no matter the conditions or thoughts or feelings, or anything. It can feel easy or difficult. It doesn't matter. The fact is it is possible. And it can be done permanently. That stubbornness factor I think is extremely useful.

So my plans for future drinking - I plan to NEVER drink again and to never change my mind. End of story. AVRT is extremely helpful in making it less feel painful at times, but in the end my decision for my Big Plan stands alone. It doesn't matter if it is easy or difficult it feels to abstain, I will abstain under all conditions.

I am also so sick of the AV. I got this idea in my head (AV) that I had to expose myself to the AV so I could build my tolerance. There is nothing needed other than to abstain. This idea that I need to practice in order to guarantee myself is again, AV. The only thing I have to do is not pick up.

Not only has the act of drinking taken so much of my life, but the thoughts around it. It has taken up so much of my thinking, and I have been engaging in it. As soon as AV comes up with something compelling, I sit down and contemplate. Nope - now I ignore. There is nothing to fear because the idea in itself is impossible. There is no relapse anxiety because again, impossible to relapse. All this thought process is the AV. And It sounds really stupid. Somehow I magically am going to forget this important vow. And change my mind. I don't think so.

So AV = annoying. Irritating. But scary??? Nope. And I am really good at ignoring things that bug me and moving on with more interesting things. There is no reason for me to even take the content into consideration. If I entertain it, solve it in my mind, it will just come up with something else. The more I pay attention to it, the more space in my brain it will take up.

Thanks for your response! I appreciate it!

dwtbd

You sound like a quitter.










Awesome !

naz111

Thank God. No wait…thank ME!!!

tursiops999

Naz, I really think you've got it. My experience with AV has been, it's best to just dismiss it at the very instant I recognize a thought as AV. Entertaining the thoughts, arguing with AV, tends to strengthen the AV and waste a lot of my energy. That discussion with AV could go on forever -- the AV has nothing to lose by engaging in debate, in fact, it's the only hope of its survival. Dismissing the thought starves the AV and saves my energy for better things.