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Old 05-03-2021, 08:08 AM
  # 21 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by GerandTwine View Post
Hi Shakeel,

It is clear you would LIKE to use AVRT and have diligently read all about it in a book Rational Recovery, The New Cure that Freshstart sent you. I hope you do not forget that you can look inside to remind yourself about AVRT at any time and hopefully you can even carry it around with you because you mentioned that you repeatedly find yourself forgetting all about the simple AV gimmick all the way through the complex process of going to get alcohol and then drinking it (which I think is particularly difficult over there in Islamic Morocco).

So, with that in mind, here are 2 questions for you right now. First, think about your desire to attend a live meeting of people later on where other people will talk to you and remind you what it is you have forgotten about AVRT.

When you think about drinking and feel like you’re about to decide to drink, what would be the best solution?

1 - Open your book and remind yourself what you have forgotten about the AV

2 - Wait until later today or tomorrow when there might be that meeting where other people could remind you about AVRT.

The second question is: Do you think the number 2- answer is coming from YOU or your Addictive Voice?

GT
I understand your two questions. The way you laid it down, of course number two is from AV if I were to choose between the two. However, if you look at my suggestion for meetings, isn't what we are doing here a "kind" of meeting fo some sort. Reminding each other about the subtelties of the AV?
This may come off as AV again, but at certain times in the past in certain situations when I end up "deciding" that I would give up and give in to the drink AVRT is totally absent as if I had never know the method. Posting here, talking to others who use AVRT for some times was what I had in mind for meetings. I can already see it coming ( what I have just said is pure AV).
By the way GerandTwine, Morocco is quite different, in my neighborhood alone a 3 block radius we have 7 liquor stores and 6 bars.
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Old 05-03-2021, 04:52 PM
  # 22 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by shakeel View Post
I understand your two questions. The way you laid it down, of course number two is from AV if I were to choose between the two. However, if you look at my suggestion for meetings, isn't what we are doing here a "kind" of meeting fo some sort. Reminding each other about the subtelties of the AV?
Not at all. This is referring people to simple concepts set out in a manual of use - that book you have, because occasionally I’m willing to spend the time telling you instead of just encouraging you to look it up yourself in the book.

This may come off as AV again, but at certain times in the past in certain situations when I end up "deciding" that I would give up and give in to the drink AVRT is totally absent as if I had never know the method
This may sound as silly to you as your sentence above sounds to me (because it is silly), but, when you go out put all your money into an envelope on which you have written on both sides “I will never drink again.” So when you go into one of those liquor stores or bars, AVRT will no longer be totally absent from your purchase as if you had never known the Technique or The Big Plan.

Posting here, talking to others who use AVRT for some times was what I had in mind for meetings. I can already see it coming ( what I have just said is pure AV).
Good job.

By the way GerandTwine, Morocco is quite different, in my neighborhood alone a 3 block radius we have 7 liquor stores and 6 bars.
Don’t worry, you can still go in them to buy something else.

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Old 05-03-2021, 09:09 PM
  # 23 (permalink)  
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shakeel,

Making a true Big Plan is the key first step in effectively applying AVRT. Once one makes a Big Plan any thought or feeling that suggests future alcohol use is AV.

The Big Plan draws a line in the sand that makes the AV clear and easy to recognize & dismiss. I feel a lot of people have issues with separation (dismissal) because 1) they didn’t make a Big Plan, or 2) they engage their AV as if it had any power.

Keep faith in yourself shakeel. I know you can do this.
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Old 05-04-2021, 06:40 AM
  # 24 (permalink)  
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This discussion reminds me a bit of the different learning styles people can have. I'm definitely one of those who prefers to do my own research, look things up in books, articles, on the web etc on my own before I would go and ask people directly, or expect anyone to reach out and tell me or check my progress. But I know from psychology and from my own mentoring experiences that people vary in this, and if the ultimate goal is to successfully apply the knowledge and make it work, I think it's always best if sources matching one's own preferred learning style are available. For some, groups and meetings generally work better than independent information gathering and learning. In this context, I think meetings can be a good idea, but don't these discussions here on SR serve that purpose already? What else would people want in AVRT-specific meetings, just the group spirit and social aspects of speaking directly about the topic? Or maybe structure and some rituals, like other programs have?
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Old 05-05-2021, 03:14 PM
  # 25 (permalink)  
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Repition is the mother of all skills they say.
All I wanted is a daily reminder that " Any thought that suggests the future use of alcohol is from the Addictive voice" especially during those times where a cue changes my brain chemistry (what wires together fires together)
Anyways I am making a Big Plan again right now and I have already got the above phrase (Any thought that suggests the future use of alcohol is from the Addictive voice) pasted in different places on my phone where I can see it.
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Old 05-05-2021, 03:28 PM
  # 26 (permalink)  
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Try the 'I Am Sober' app, shakeel.
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Old 05-10-2021, 04:05 PM
  # 27 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Aellyce View Post
Try the 'I Am Sober' app, shakeel.
installing
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Old 05-10-2021, 08:51 PM
  # 28 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by shakeel View Post
Repition is the mother of all skills they say.
All I wanted is a daily reminder that " Any thought that suggests the future use of alcohol is from the Addictive voice" especially during those times where a cue changes my brain chemistry (what wires together fires together)
Anyways I am making a Big Plan again right now and I have already got the above phrase (Any thought that suggests the future use of alcohol is from the Addictive voice) pasted in different places on my phone where I can see it.
That’s awesome shakeel!!!

Congrats on making your Big Plan. Now may be a good time to re-read the book, especially the section on the Big Plan. Also, spending some time reading through the 6-part AVRT thread may help supplement the book.

Making my Big Plan & separating from the AV is what FINALLY did it for me (after years of trying other methods). I am now free from those chains, and I hope the same for you. I’m so stoked to read this, you made my day.

Let us know if you have any questions.
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Old 05-25-2021, 06:24 AM
  # 29 (permalink)  
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I found this thread because I was looking for something where the AVRT was discussed for it's own sake as it were. It is only 10 days since I learned the term AVRT but I have become interested in it as enabling a paradigm shift, in that it allows me to see the world in a different way. My every action, reaction and utterance is now reframed through knowing the AV was/is often a filter through which meaning was/is distorted. It is not a unique model but perhaps akin to someone embracing a religious faith or other dogma in that once 'embraced' they believe the have 'seen the light' and everything makes sense in a way it didn't before and the persons life is made simpler and 'better'

So if a person becomes alive to, or aware of, the AV and fully engages with the AVRT there can be no risk of ever succumbing to alcohol again or for that matter any substance or activity which is causing upset in a persons life. One could say the same of anyone who embraces a religious faith and accepts all its values. If it is this simple, which it is, I wonder why more people do not see embrace it, Or is it simply that the AV will not let them, in which case how do you, the advocate for AVRT and RR reach those people.
I am interested in any thoughts on this.


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Old 05-25-2021, 07:26 AM
  # 30 (permalink)  
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In the Secular Connections forum , in the Sticky section on top is a link to AVRT discussion long, so check that out if you haven't already.
re advocacy, anytime I'm in a discussion with someone about ending an addiction I point them to RR and AVRT
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Old 05-25-2021, 01:55 PM
  # 31 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by dustyfox View Post
I found this thread because I was looking for something where the AVRT was discussed for it's own sake as it were. It is only 10 days since I learned the term AVRT but I have become interested in it as enabling a paradigm shift, in that it allows me to see the world in a different way. My every action, reaction and utterance is now reframed through knowing the AV was/is often a filter through which meaning was/is distorted.
Hi df,

AV is a thing, RT is the filtering. Recognition Technique of the AV does not distort anything in my mind any more than picking out and setting aside all the yellow M&Ms from a bowl of M&Ms distorts M&Ms. The RT simply separates the AV from ME, the complex human being. Early on there is probably a lot of AV to be R’ed (a lot of yellow M&Ms).

It is not a unique model but perhaps akin to someone embracing a religious faith or other dogma in that once 'embraced' they believe the have 'seen the light' and everything makes sense in a way it didn't before and the persons life is made simpler and 'better'
The Abstinence Commitment Effect can feel like a spiritual event, I suppose, but RT’ing the AV has nothing to do with religion, it’s just about grade school understanding of generalized brain function (the Structural Model of Addiction) and that addicted people have become ambivalent (of ‘two minds’) about drinking some more; so it makes sense to create a dissociative bipolar gimmick to help an addict “see” or “sort out” a way to recover from a pleasurable appetite once wanted and now unwanted.

So if a person becomes alive to, or aware of, the AV and fully engages with the AVRT there can be no risk of ever succumbing to alcohol again or for that matter any substance or activity which is causing upset in a persons life.
The Technique of ReCognizing one’s Addictive Voice was not originally intended as a technique for institutional morality to be meted out to group members. AVRT, though, does take advantage of the personal morality that an addict might have regarding themselves, their family, friends, and colleagues as motivation for permanently ending an addiction by making a Big Plan.
One could say the same of anyone who embraces a religious faith and accepts all its values. If it is this simple, which it is, I wonder why more people do not see embrace it, Or is it simply that the AV will not let them, in which case how do you, the advocate for AVRT and RR reach those people.
I am interested in any thoughts on this.
It’s nice to hear that you have such a natural affinity for AVRT. That can be very useful. I suspect a lot of people DO embrace something like AVRT. For instance one third of all adults in the US are nondrinkers. How they stay that way must have to do with some value judgement they have come up with that makes NOT drinking pretty easy.

For me, advocating Addictive Voice Recognition Technique is more an attempt to keep it pristine and bring back the Pledge of Permanent Abstinence to the level of logical acceptance in society and the public realm that it deserves. I’ve no interest in making it a new fad to sweep around the world as a panacea for every bad habit.

GT






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Old 05-25-2021, 03:05 PM
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Originally Posted by GerandTwine View Post
Hi df,

For me, advocating Addictive Voice Recognition Technique is more an attempt to keep it pristine and bring back the Pledge of Permanent Abstinence to the level of logical acceptance in society and the public realm that it deserves. I’ve no interest in making it a new fad to sweep around the world as a panacea for every bad habit.

GT
Yes I see. AVRT is just a technique. And a technique that works because Permanent Abstinence works in that there can be no poisoning of the body by alcohol, if no alcohol is consumed. I suppose the many, many threads and posts around this subject stem from the inability, and doubt, that some people have in accepting it/understanding it/ believing it. And that is in itself odd as it is a fact not an opinion! In the same way that 'We will not starve to death if we eat food' is a fact not an opinion. Sometimes the simplest answers take the longest to understand. And of course the only thing stopping anyone from understanding/believing/accepting that fact is the AV - I feel pretty stupid for not seeing this decades ago! Lastly of course ( and this is not my AV talking) after understanding/accepting/believing there is implementing it.
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Old 05-25-2021, 06:40 PM
  # 33 (permalink)  
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Of course it is your AV talking , not implementing it means the option for more booze is still on the table.

The good news is you have the power to implement a Big Plan and reduce the AV to its relevant impotency , if and when you’d like.

Rootin for ya
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Old 05-25-2021, 08:04 PM
  # 34 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by dustyfox View Post
Yes I see. AVRT is just a technique. And a technique that works because Permanent Abstinence works in that there can be no poisoning of the body by alcohol, if no alcohol is consumed. I suppose the many, many threads and posts around this subject stem from the inability, and doubt, that some people have in accepting it/understanding it/ believing it. And that is in itself odd as it is a fact not an opinion! In the same way that 'We will not starve to death if we eat food' is a fact not an opinion. Sometimes the simplest answers take the longest to understand. And of course the only thing stopping anyone from understanding/believing/accepting that fact is the AV - I feel pretty stupid for not seeing this decades ago! Lastly of course ( and this is not my AV talking) after understanding/accepting/believing there is implementing it.
Not to deny your feelings, but I would not call it “stupidity.” Our society is rife with all kinds of accommodations supporting the AV that those of us who are chemically dependent and getting into more and more trouble are not in a good position to step back far enough and see what is and has been going on for many decades, institutionally and professionally. The gigantic service industries serving substance abusers ameliorate the AV without ever actually identifying it.

The various organizations overseeing the disciplining of drunkards crimes and misdeeds have a legitimate argument in not knowing whether a person pledging to never drink again is telling the truth. I believe substance abusers should be given at least one, maybe two chances, after which, throw the book at them and/or mandate a life long recovery way of life program.

On the positive side, while no one really knows for sure if another person has made the Big Plan, the person making the plan knows absolutely that they did actually make that plan. They cannot lie to themselves about never doing something that is such a specific, obvious, in-your-face, complex, voluntary activity.

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Old 05-26-2021, 05:40 AM
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Once someone has said 'I will never drink alcohol again and I will never change my mind' is there anything else to say?!
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Old 05-26-2021, 06:09 AM
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To whom ?
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Old 05-26-2021, 07:14 AM
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For example, a forum such as this one, where people post, discuss, ask for advice, opinions on 'giving up' .
I can see there is room to discuss symptoms of withdrawal, advice about diet to help the body to recover, which is different, as once a person has quit, there are practical considerations of painful withdrawal etc that can be helped through diet ad exercise and can be legitimatly discussed without the AV being involved.
But in terms of discussing 'how hard it is to give up' once you have made the Big Plan, it is a full stop. That's it job done?

I am not being argumentative, but I am interested in fully understanding.
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Old 05-26-2021, 07:40 AM
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Or is the question mark at the end of my statement 'Job Done?' the AV..........
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Old 05-26-2021, 09:17 AM
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"But in terms of discussing 'how hard it is to give up' once you have made the Big Plan, it is a full stop. That's it job done?"

In AVRT , AV is any positive thought or image of future consumption and any doubt in one's ability to remain abstinent. The Recognition Technique(the RT) is the conscious identification of AV and Its influences on one's thinking and behavior.

I think you have mentioned ordering the RR book, so I assume you have yet to read it, but the short answer is yes that's it , job done. Making a self pledge to commit to forever, permanent abstinence is 'recovery' , if you make a decision to never drink again and to never change on that the addiction will have come to an end , yes ? If the decision contains caveats or is conditioned ( I will never drink again , unless a really bad "x" happens, or a really good "x" happens ect) then that is a plan to drink in the future and by definition AV .

Using AVRT is to scan your thinking for AV, identify It and then separate from It. If one has made a commitment to abstinence any thinking about future consumption can not be coming from You, yes? The recognition of the Beast ( the desire for more alcohol) and its bark (the AV) as an alien entity allows for disassociation and separation .

It's not hard to want to give a up an addiction, to want to be free from the self imposed prison that addictive consumption is, not for You. It is very hard for the Beast to go without, the sole function, the only reason for Its existence is more booze , your decision signals Its desire will never be fulfilled, It will never again get Its precious stuff, too bad for It , good for You . The idea that giving up is hard for You isn't true, the AV will always try and convince You that it is in fact hard for you to quit, it actually isn't , it is very hard for It , too bad for IT.

Once you are comfortable identifying your own AV , you can see it in others. You can even see 'societal' or 'institutionalized' AV. Through the lens of AVRT , "AV" is a very contextualized term . Re forums and 'recovery' culture in general , the term is used but often connotes and denotes things outside of AVRT.



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Old 05-26-2021, 01:30 PM
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Originally Posted by dustyfox View Post
Once someone has said 'I will never drink alcohol again and I will never change my mind' is there anything else to say?!
If it was said while drunk, yes. If said while in the grips of a hangover, yes. If said rhetorically, yes. If said as the once-in-a-lifetime personal pledge, no.
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