Grappling with Boundaries
Member
Join Date: Jul 2023
Posts: 134
Oynet,
You don't have to decide today or this week. About him coming to see you.
And if you do decide to invite him, just let go of any expectations of him. Because no one should expect anything from someone in active addiction. It would be irrational to do so.
But if you feel you need some face to face time with him, then maybe give yourself some time to rest--having been in the hospital recently--until you feel physically well enough for it.
You can rest awhile. Then see what feels right.
You don't have to decide today or this week. About him coming to see you.
And if you do decide to invite him, just let go of any expectations of him. Because no one should expect anything from someone in active addiction. It would be irrational to do so.
But if you feel you need some face to face time with him, then maybe give yourself some time to rest--having been in the hospital recently--until you feel physically well enough for it.
You can rest awhile. Then see what feels right.
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2024
Posts: 55
I had a really long think about everything today, the things you guys have helped me see, but also the things that I feel - it helped that I was called into work and it was a very busy day. I *do* want to see him again. I miss him when we are apart. But I'm scared too after everything.
In the end, I told him I didn't know what I want. That letting back in terrified me because it was setting me up for heartbreak. He responded that he was afraid of that to - afraid of hurting me again. We ended up having this exchange:
I said: For me, you are a hell yes.
Not that we don't have **** to work through.
But I am not a hell yes for you.
And he replied: I honestly wonder if anyone would be a hell yes for me right now
And so I said: This is going to sound rude, but I don't mean it this way, but no. No one would be.
Because your addiction is your hell yes right now.
And his response was encouraging to be honest. "I think you're right in a way
It's about time I took another honest try at sobriety anyway. Better than I have been doing.
The past few days haven't been good, obviously"
I said
Love the last <i>month</i> hasn't been good for you
And he said:
Heh. Yeah, you're right
He didn't drink the rest of the day, which is it's own success given he had a beer in the fridge. I did decide that we needed to not talk until he worked out what he truly wanted, because it would be far far too easy to hope - this is not the first time he's wrecked me and come crawling back because he cannot imagine a life without me. I just need to stay strong. To not think of this as a hopeful step.
In the end, I told him I didn't know what I want. That letting back in terrified me because it was setting me up for heartbreak. He responded that he was afraid of that to - afraid of hurting me again. We ended up having this exchange:
I said: For me, you are a hell yes.
Not that we don't have **** to work through.
But I am not a hell yes for you.
And he replied: I honestly wonder if anyone would be a hell yes for me right now
And so I said: This is going to sound rude, but I don't mean it this way, but no. No one would be.
Because your addiction is your hell yes right now.
And his response was encouraging to be honest. "I think you're right in a way
It's about time I took another honest try at sobriety anyway. Better than I have been doing.
The past few days haven't been good, obviously"
I said
Love the last <i>month</i> hasn't been good for you
And he said:
Heh. Yeah, you're right
He didn't drink the rest of the day, which is it's own success given he had a beer in the fridge. I did decide that we needed to not talk until he worked out what he truly wanted, because it would be far far too easy to hope - this is not the first time he's wrecked me and come crawling back because he cannot imagine a life without me. I just need to stay strong. To not think of this as a hopeful step.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2023
Posts: 134
While you are taking this break, you could do some reading about narcissists.
It's going to be difficult "waiting" for HIM to make HIS decision, Oynet. It gives him too much power. Maybe better to frame it as waiting to talk until YOU decide what YOU truly want.
But while you are waiting, keep educating yourself. Read. Read. Read. About toxic relationships. Codependency. Gaslighting. Narcissism.
It's going to be difficult "waiting" for HIM to make HIS decision, Oynet. It gives him too much power. Maybe better to frame it as waiting to talk until YOU decide what YOU truly want.
But while you are waiting, keep educating yourself. Read. Read. Read. About toxic relationships. Codependency. Gaslighting. Narcissism.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 8,649
Good for you for not falling back in to all that immediately. I know it took courage.
For an alcoholic, that drink is the thing that takes the pain away (and all those annoying feelings). In a kind of parallel way, when you break up with someone and you are spiraling in hurt, what helps that? Talking to them, them saying "let's try again", i don't want to never see you again.
As Lucy said, this is your opportunity to make decisions, not for him to decide alone what's happening here.
And you are right to be so cautious, he's erratic. He might be getting drunk right now saying all women are just trouble, you can't tell because he is not reliable emotionally or mentally.
What can help to give some clarity is writing a list of all the negative things:
- Was too drunk to talk to me on several calls, or insisted only text
- Tried more than once to use my savings for his expenses, demanding them
- Can't give a firm commitment to this relationship
- Is only able to refrain from drinking one day a month
- Says he will do X and never does it
- Said he would pay me back and never has
- Will tell me I am X when in fact it's really him
Just keep writing until you get it all out there. Why? Because a day or two from now you will start missing him again and you won't be thinking he tried to take food off our table to pay his rent and then texted me and broke up with me! The "good times" will start to surface, you may start to dwell on those.
You may think of him as two people, the good guy and the bad, addicted guy and the "good guy" is worth fighting for (he's not two people, you get both).
So anytime you find yourself ruminating on what could be or what used to be, pull out your list to remind yourself why you are where you are. The 'good times' are easy to remember, the other stuff tends to fade in to the background.
You are spot on with this.
For an alcoholic, that drink is the thing that takes the pain away (and all those annoying feelings). In a kind of parallel way, when you break up with someone and you are spiraling in hurt, what helps that? Talking to them, them saying "let's try again", i don't want to never see you again.
As Lucy said, this is your opportunity to make decisions, not for him to decide alone what's happening here.
this is not the first time he's wrecked me and come crawling back because he cannot imagine a life without me.
What can help to give some clarity is writing a list of all the negative things:
- Was too drunk to talk to me on several calls, or insisted only text
- Tried more than once to use my savings for his expenses, demanding them
- Can't give a firm commitment to this relationship
- Is only able to refrain from drinking one day a month
- Says he will do X and never does it
- Said he would pay me back and never has
- Will tell me I am X when in fact it's really him
Just keep writing until you get it all out there. Why? Because a day or two from now you will start missing him again and you won't be thinking he tried to take food off our table to pay his rent and then texted me and broke up with me! The "good times" will start to surface, you may start to dwell on those.
You may think of him as two people, the good guy and the bad, addicted guy and the "good guy" is worth fighting for (he's not two people, you get both).
So anytime you find yourself ruminating on what could be or what used to be, pull out your list to remind yourself why you are where you are. The 'good times' are easy to remember, the other stuff tends to fade in to the background.
I just need to stay strong. To not think of this as a hopeful step.
Member
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Litchfield Park, AZ
Posts: 319
Boy. I really feel your pain and confusion. A couple of people have mentioned Al-Anon (me being one of them). Have you considered it? It's easy to find a meeting, just browse for Al-Anon, Australia. If you're reluctant to attend an in-person meeting, or if meetings are too far or too inconvenient, online meetings are available around the world at all times of the day or night. Either way, you can share what you're experiencing, or you can just listen, that's fine too!
After attending Al-Anon meetings for a while, a more experienced member asked how I felt when I attended my first meeting. From somewhere inside me, the word that sprang up was "acceptance." People in this program understand what you're going thru, (as few others can), and as I learned to listen, I heard my own story and I heard worse stories. I think the "worse stories" surprised me because I was pretty sure my story was the worst! Lots of shame surrounds this disease, for the alcoholic and for those who love them. I think that feeling of acceptance came when I learned that my situation was not unique.
You've got a lot of feelings roiling around, and one of the things we learn is that feelings are not facts. Just like the alcoholic, it's dangerous for us when we are lonely, hungry, angry or tired because at those times we're not thinking clearly. We learn that some of the same things that affect the alcoholic affect us...not because we're alcoholics, but because we're affected by alcoholism. I'd like to recommend a reading from an Al-Anon publication, "Understanding Ourselves and Alcoholism" by Al‑Anon Family Group Headquarters, Inc., Virginia Beach, VA. I'm not sure I can include a link, but google it and it will pop right up.The reason I recommend it is because it succinctly describes some of the behaviors that we adopt in reaction to our dealings with the alcoholic: Obsession, anxiety, anger, denial, guilt. You may recognize some similarities.
One last thought on anger. Prior to starting my own recovery, I said, often, "I don't have an angry bone in my body." The truth was that it took me three years to get to the point where I even recognized anger; I had done such a good job of suppressing it. When I should have felt angry, I couldn't. I'm still not an angry person, it's not my nature. But yes, sometimes I do get angry, and that's OK. Emotions come and emotions go. Our job is to be alert for feelings and to see the world thru clearer eyes. Sometimes those are skills that need to be developed and often that takes work.
--Still wishing you the best,
After attending Al-Anon meetings for a while, a more experienced member asked how I felt when I attended my first meeting. From somewhere inside me, the word that sprang up was "acceptance." People in this program understand what you're going thru, (as few others can), and as I learned to listen, I heard my own story and I heard worse stories. I think the "worse stories" surprised me because I was pretty sure my story was the worst! Lots of shame surrounds this disease, for the alcoholic and for those who love them. I think that feeling of acceptance came when I learned that my situation was not unique.
You've got a lot of feelings roiling around, and one of the things we learn is that feelings are not facts. Just like the alcoholic, it's dangerous for us when we are lonely, hungry, angry or tired because at those times we're not thinking clearly. We learn that some of the same things that affect the alcoholic affect us...not because we're alcoholics, but because we're affected by alcoholism. I'd like to recommend a reading from an Al-Anon publication, "Understanding Ourselves and Alcoholism" by Al‑Anon Family Group Headquarters, Inc., Virginia Beach, VA. I'm not sure I can include a link, but google it and it will pop right up.The reason I recommend it is because it succinctly describes some of the behaviors that we adopt in reaction to our dealings with the alcoholic: Obsession, anxiety, anger, denial, guilt. You may recognize some similarities.
One last thought on anger. Prior to starting my own recovery, I said, often, "I don't have an angry bone in my body." The truth was that it took me three years to get to the point where I even recognized anger; I had done such a good job of suppressing it. When I should have felt angry, I couldn't. I'm still not an angry person, it's not my nature. But yes, sometimes I do get angry, and that's OK. Emotions come and emotions go. Our job is to be alert for feelings and to see the world thru clearer eyes. Sometimes those are skills that need to be developed and often that takes work.
--Still wishing you the best,
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2024
Posts: 55
I'm tempted to start a new thread at this point, but I think the history here can Help me... help others coming after me maybe.
The last two days have been... a roller coaster of pain doesn't even come close. All the peace I was starting to feel from the posts from you all has dissipated into a cloud of confusion and hurt. After he contacted me panicking, we had a conversation about some of the things I learned here - he leaned hard away from the idea his words were meant to level and crush me. And god help me I believed him. He was leaning hard on us working things through, because he couldn't let me go. The following day he was slightly distant again, and he shared an episode of a podcast with me he wanted me to listen to (Mental Illness Happy Hour) on Codependency. I was at work so couldn't right away, and we had a brief conversation about how we missed gaming together. I said he had given me hope, and he said he had given himself hope. I then said I missed a lot of things and that sparked... a hell of an argument.
He asked me "do you believe that if I just got sober, we would be okay?" (And no, I didn't miss the "if" in that sentence).
And I replied "Sobriety isn’t a destination. It isn’t something that is just over. Ever. You will be an addict your entire life, active addiction, sober, or in recovery.
So I’ll rephrase your question. Do I think that we’d be ok if you weren’t currently in active addiction, if you were in recovery? Yes. I think things would be easier. Because we could have rational conversations about our problems."
And he... said some really awful hurtful things after that. How his drinking wasn't the root of our problems. It was that he was sacrificing his 'need' of a sexual partner he was "fully attracted" too because he'd sacrificed that in every relationship he'd had. (All two of us - he was hyper critical of us both).
So I blocked him.
After I knew he'd gone to bed I unblocked him, so that I could listen to the podcast and respond. There was actually some good stuff in there - around boundaries and consequences (I am good at setting boundaries, and really awful at maintaining the consequences of those boundaries being crossed). The mentioned my disability and I had a real negative reaction to how they portrayed that. I had positive reactions to other things in the podcast. I ended up passing out and forgot to block him again before I did.
And of course he responded. He hadn't drunk yet, and we ended up having a great mature conversation about it the podcast. How his internal compass couldn't be trusted to guide him when he's been drinking. (Something he picked up from another episode of that podcast) He said "Think of our relationship as being on life support (cause I mean, it kind of literally is) and we probably only have one more chance to get it right." And I stupidly began to hope AGAIN. Because it felt like we were really really really discussing our actual needs and boundaries and consequences and were coming to a path of healing that was mutually satisfying to us both. And then... he'd f*ing started drinking.
I asked him about May, and he said we'd already decided that. And I was like "Well no, two days ago you asked me to look at tickets. So it is very much up in the air", and he said that was fluctuating in his mind on our relationship day by day, so he couldn't commit to something so far away. That he's too uncertain.
And things spiraled again. That I was undermining his 'need' that 'maybe' he will decide he wants me and it will hurt if I am not there when he decides that. That because a friend of him never doubted his relationship, it is somehow wrong that he doubt (your friend was not an addict!)
He is actively measuring me again the potential of someone that he's never had. Someone he may never have. I am everything he is ever wanted, except we only 'sometimes' have the chemistry he desires. I just...
*sigh*
This awfully long post is just me processing. I realize that the whole conversation was just him trying to manipulate me into his way of thinking.
Right now I need support in being strong and not collapsing into a pile of despair.
The last two days have been... a roller coaster of pain doesn't even come close. All the peace I was starting to feel from the posts from you all has dissipated into a cloud of confusion and hurt. After he contacted me panicking, we had a conversation about some of the things I learned here - he leaned hard away from the idea his words were meant to level and crush me. And god help me I believed him. He was leaning hard on us working things through, because he couldn't let me go. The following day he was slightly distant again, and he shared an episode of a podcast with me he wanted me to listen to (Mental Illness Happy Hour) on Codependency. I was at work so couldn't right away, and we had a brief conversation about how we missed gaming together. I said he had given me hope, and he said he had given himself hope. I then said I missed a lot of things and that sparked... a hell of an argument.
He asked me "do you believe that if I just got sober, we would be okay?" (And no, I didn't miss the "if" in that sentence).
And I replied "Sobriety isn’t a destination. It isn’t something that is just over. Ever. You will be an addict your entire life, active addiction, sober, or in recovery.
So I’ll rephrase your question. Do I think that we’d be ok if you weren’t currently in active addiction, if you were in recovery? Yes. I think things would be easier. Because we could have rational conversations about our problems."
And he... said some really awful hurtful things after that. How his drinking wasn't the root of our problems. It was that he was sacrificing his 'need' of a sexual partner he was "fully attracted" too because he'd sacrificed that in every relationship he'd had. (All two of us - he was hyper critical of us both).
So I blocked him.
After I knew he'd gone to bed I unblocked him, so that I could listen to the podcast and respond. There was actually some good stuff in there - around boundaries and consequences (I am good at setting boundaries, and really awful at maintaining the consequences of those boundaries being crossed). The mentioned my disability and I had a real negative reaction to how they portrayed that. I had positive reactions to other things in the podcast. I ended up passing out and forgot to block him again before I did.
And of course he responded. He hadn't drunk yet, and we ended up having a great mature conversation about it the podcast. How his internal compass couldn't be trusted to guide him when he's been drinking. (Something he picked up from another episode of that podcast) He said "Think of our relationship as being on life support (cause I mean, it kind of literally is) and we probably only have one more chance to get it right." And I stupidly began to hope AGAIN. Because it felt like we were really really really discussing our actual needs and boundaries and consequences and were coming to a path of healing that was mutually satisfying to us both. And then... he'd f*ing started drinking.
I asked him about May, and he said we'd already decided that. And I was like "Well no, two days ago you asked me to look at tickets. So it is very much up in the air", and he said that was fluctuating in his mind on our relationship day by day, so he couldn't commit to something so far away. That he's too uncertain.
And things spiraled again. That I was undermining his 'need' that 'maybe' he will decide he wants me and it will hurt if I am not there when he decides that. That because a friend of him never doubted his relationship, it is somehow wrong that he doubt (your friend was not an addict!)
He is actively measuring me again the potential of someone that he's never had. Someone he may never have. I am everything he is ever wanted, except we only 'sometimes' have the chemistry he desires. I just...
*sigh*
This awfully long post is just me processing. I realize that the whole conversation was just him trying to manipulate me into his way of thinking.
Right now I need support in being strong and not collapsing into a pile of despair.
Yield beautiful changes
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: A home filled with love
Posts: 1,699
Eventually my boundary became: I will not discuss his addiction with him. I will steer him to qualified help and excuse myself from the conversation.
I would not discuss our relationship until/unless he had a period of at least 6 months of continuous sobriety and a sea change in attitude.
Because the talking in RIDICULOUS circles drove me bat-poop crazy. Up. Down. Back. Forth. UGH!!!!
When you describe his words I just hear active addiction defending itself by any means necessary. I would urge you to step away from this - he is hurling pain your direction (it distracts from his mess, so it feeds his addiction). It is not healthy for anyone.
I am sorry for your pain. You are strong. You can move beyond this. Staying put doesn’t help him and actively hurts you.
I would not discuss our relationship until/unless he had a period of at least 6 months of continuous sobriety and a sea change in attitude.
Because the talking in RIDICULOUS circles drove me bat-poop crazy. Up. Down. Back. Forth. UGH!!!!
When you describe his words I just hear active addiction defending itself by any means necessary. I would urge you to step away from this - he is hurling pain your direction (it distracts from his mess, so it feeds his addiction). It is not healthy for anyone.
I am sorry for your pain. You are strong. You can move beyond this. Staying put doesn’t help him and actively hurts you.
Member
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: The Beach
Posts: 1,106
Hi Oynnet. I've been following your story. I'm sorry that you are living through the hell that is loving someone who is in active addiction. I was married to an alcoholic for more than two decades. I come from a family rife with alcoholics and codependents. Currently, my 45yr brother-in-law is in the throes of his addictions, reeking havoc on the entire family. Also, as a non-addiction-related aside, my current husband and I were in a long distance/dual country relationship for two years before we married, that was difficult enough without any addiction issues present! I mentioned all that so you will know I absolutely understand how overwhelming and upsetting your situation is.
Once I really learned and understood what boundaries were, and realized how to enforce them my life got to feeling a lot more manageable. My boundaries did evolve over time, but the first boundary I set that really helped in my situation was: " I will not engage with him when he has been drinking" . Full stop. At most I would say, "I won't discuss this with you when you have been drinking"...if I said anything at all. I didn't berate, yell, cry, beg, joke, laugh etc... I just totally refused to engage with him. It was pointless, he could swing from happy, to angry, to sad, to remorseful in a matter of moments. He'd try pushing my buttons and manipulating me with different fear tactics to outright breaking down crying. He could really do a number on me...but once I learned to disengage from it my own stress levels went way down. Life was still chaotic, but it WAS better when I wasn't trying to rationalize with an irrational person. You can't make sense out of senselessness, but you sure can drive yourself crazy trying.
I know you've already heard it on here several times, about how "alcoholics don't have relationships, they have resources"... Unfortunately, it really does seem like this man is viewing you as a resource, not as a person with feelings and needs of their own. Addiction is a disease of epic selfishness. I hope you are able to stop feeding bits of yourself to his cause. It will only continue as long as you let it. It took me years to realize I was my own worst enemy, I had been allowing my AXH to put me through the wringer. I had the power to put a stop to it all along and I had been choosing not to. I thought I would be his savior. I thought my situation was different, that our love was deeper, yada, yada...I was misguided by those thoughts. Addiction is a beast, but it isn't a beast we can battle for them.
My father in law has money, he has been trying to "buy/pay" his son healthy for 20years now... My mother does not have financial wealth, but is still doing something similar with my brother. I know all this "help" comes from a place of love...I get that... but as addicts, they take advantage of that love and neither of them is changing for the better, only getting worse and ruining their parents golden years in the process. It's so obvious these men are using their parents as resources. I'ts so, so selfish. It's such typical addict behavior. It's infuriating to watch, but I'm glad I've chosen not to be a part of that kind of dysfunction any longer. My heart breaks for all involved, but at least it's not, and will not, ever be taking place in my home. A home should be a sanctuary, a home with an active alcoholic in it is no sanctuary.
My heart does go out to you Oynnet. I know how hard and hurtful this is. I do wish for you strength and clarity as you navigate the choices you are faced with.
Once I really learned and understood what boundaries were, and realized how to enforce them my life got to feeling a lot more manageable. My boundaries did evolve over time, but the first boundary I set that really helped in my situation was: " I will not engage with him when he has been drinking" . Full stop. At most I would say, "I won't discuss this with you when you have been drinking"...if I said anything at all. I didn't berate, yell, cry, beg, joke, laugh etc... I just totally refused to engage with him. It was pointless, he could swing from happy, to angry, to sad, to remorseful in a matter of moments. He'd try pushing my buttons and manipulating me with different fear tactics to outright breaking down crying. He could really do a number on me...but once I learned to disengage from it my own stress levels went way down. Life was still chaotic, but it WAS better when I wasn't trying to rationalize with an irrational person. You can't make sense out of senselessness, but you sure can drive yourself crazy trying.
I know you've already heard it on here several times, about how "alcoholics don't have relationships, they have resources"... Unfortunately, it really does seem like this man is viewing you as a resource, not as a person with feelings and needs of their own. Addiction is a disease of epic selfishness. I hope you are able to stop feeding bits of yourself to his cause. It will only continue as long as you let it. It took me years to realize I was my own worst enemy, I had been allowing my AXH to put me through the wringer. I had the power to put a stop to it all along and I had been choosing not to. I thought I would be his savior. I thought my situation was different, that our love was deeper, yada, yada...I was misguided by those thoughts. Addiction is a beast, but it isn't a beast we can battle for them.
My father in law has money, he has been trying to "buy/pay" his son healthy for 20years now... My mother does not have financial wealth, but is still doing something similar with my brother. I know all this "help" comes from a place of love...I get that... but as addicts, they take advantage of that love and neither of them is changing for the better, only getting worse and ruining their parents golden years in the process. It's so obvious these men are using their parents as resources. I'ts so, so selfish. It's such typical addict behavior. It's infuriating to watch, but I'm glad I've chosen not to be a part of that kind of dysfunction any longer. My heart breaks for all involved, but at least it's not, and will not, ever be taking place in my home. A home should be a sanctuary, a home with an active alcoholic in it is no sanctuary.
My heart does go out to you Oynnet. I know how hard and hurtful this is. I do wish for you strength and clarity as you navigate the choices you are faced with.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 8,649
You know, I don't even see this as manipulation per se. It's just him being - him.
This is the reason I think that. Who says that??
Translated: I'd like to keep you as an option in case I do decide to quit drinking.
This is actually what he has been saying all along, his story (recent) hasn't changed. He broke up with you because you were pushing too hard. Now that you have backed off a bit, he's happy to go along with the status quo, at least for a while.
You sit on one side of the ocean and think - if he would quit drinking and get in to recovery, all would be well. He sits on the other side and thinks, if she would just let the no drinking/recovery thing go, all would be well.
You are at an impasse.
I don't know what else he has said but if it includes quitting drinking right now, that's not what the facts are showing.
This isn't about you. This is about him and his addiction. It is a roller coaster ride and will continue to be so. It is perhaps time to accept this the way it is. You can either continue this long distance relationship, with him drinking, or not.
Also, what happened with his rent? He was hopping on a plane when he was potentially going to be short of rent, that has come and gone, did he get some money from someone? Anyway, now he can relax back in to his normal.
You know the thing I said above, about the parallel of having a drink and hearing from him, how both are soothing and "fix" that hurt. Problem is, both, in this case are temporary, false, fixes.
I know that blocking him or moving away from him can induce almost a panic. You can ride through these feelings, they are just feelings (not to discount them) but they do pass.
Your focus for quite some time has been him and his problem(s), stopping talking to him leaves a big void. Filling that with other things will help. Going out, spending time with family and friends. Alcoholism can be isolating for everyone, maybe reach out to people you haven't seen for a while.
What would you like to do?
That I was undermining his 'need' that 'maybe' he will decide he wants me and it will hurt if I am not there when he decides that
Translated: I'd like to keep you as an option in case I do decide to quit drinking.
This is actually what he has been saying all along, his story (recent) hasn't changed. He broke up with you because you were pushing too hard. Now that you have backed off a bit, he's happy to go along with the status quo, at least for a while.
You sit on one side of the ocean and think - if he would quit drinking and get in to recovery, all would be well. He sits on the other side and thinks, if she would just let the no drinking/recovery thing go, all would be well.
You are at an impasse.
I don't know what else he has said but if it includes quitting drinking right now, that's not what the facts are showing.
This isn't about you. This is about him and his addiction. It is a roller coaster ride and will continue to be so. It is perhaps time to accept this the way it is. You can either continue this long distance relationship, with him drinking, or not.
Also, what happened with his rent? He was hopping on a plane when he was potentially going to be short of rent, that has come and gone, did he get some money from someone? Anyway, now he can relax back in to his normal.
Right now I need support in being strong and not collapsing into a pile of despair.
I know that blocking him or moving away from him can induce almost a panic. You can ride through these feelings, they are just feelings (not to discount them) but they do pass.
Your focus for quite some time has been him and his problem(s), stopping talking to him leaves a big void. Filling that with other things will help. Going out, spending time with family and friends. Alcoholism can be isolating for everyone, maybe reach out to people you haven't seen for a while.
What would you like to do?
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2024
Posts: 55
Originally Posted by trailmix 
Also, what happened with his rent? He was hopping on a plane when he was potentially going to be short of rent, that has come and gone, did he get some money from someone?
What would you like to do?
And what I’d like to do is very different than what I should do. What I want to do is fly there and slap him and then f* the **** out of him. I say that half in jest.
I want to keep fighting. The yawning chasm of letting go is too big.
Beyond his drinking he really was the best partner I have ever had. I gave up on dating before I met him- it’s a scary toxic dating world- and I’d given up on finding anyone to be with. I don’t expect to date after him. He was the last gamble. And I have to find someway to let go of that dream.
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It's funny that you say that about slapping him lol - as I was replying it did cross my mind (that a slap across the face would be appropriate) - but I decided not to post that.
Anyway, I totally get what you are saying and also, dating can pretty much suck.
I don't know that I would give up after him though, you never know when you might meet someone you really like.
I see nothing wrong with wanting to keep fighting. The thing is you need to be crystal clear about what you are fighting FOR.
I'm sure someone has said in this thread (maybe even me) You didn't Cause it, can't Control it and can't Cure it (the 3 c's). There is a reason why there are 3 c's - because it is true.
You can't make him want or need you enough, you can't love him enough, you can't cajole or argue or be convinced enough of what's good for him - to get him to quit drinking.
In fact (and I don't mean this harshly) what you are saying to him is you are not good enough, for me, the way you are. If you change what you are, I will accept you. I just want to control what you do for your own good.
Now he's asking the same thing of you and isn't that insulting!? But what you are asking of him is also insulting (to him). Where is the respect for him and his choices? Why do you believe that you know better than him what he should or shouldn't be doing.
Now I'm not saying you should throw in the towel, only you can make that decision. But you may have to accept him just the way he is, alcohol and all. We can't change people (and really should we try?), he is who he is.
What exactly do you see? What is the dream (because what you are experiencing now doesn't seem very dreamy!).
Anyway, I totally get what you are saying and also, dating can pretty much suck.
I don't know that I would give up after him though, you never know when you might meet someone you really like.
I want to keep fighting.
I'm sure someone has said in this thread (maybe even me) You didn't Cause it, can't Control it and can't Cure it (the 3 c's). There is a reason why there are 3 c's - because it is true.
You can't make him want or need you enough, you can't love him enough, you can't cajole or argue or be convinced enough of what's good for him - to get him to quit drinking.
In fact (and I don't mean this harshly) what you are saying to him is you are not good enough, for me, the way you are. If you change what you are, I will accept you. I just want to control what you do for your own good.
Now he's asking the same thing of you and isn't that insulting!? But what you are asking of him is also insulting (to him). Where is the respect for him and his choices? Why do you believe that you know better than him what he should or shouldn't be doing.
Now I'm not saying you should throw in the towel, only you can make that decision. But you may have to accept him just the way he is, alcohol and all. We can't change people (and really should we try?), he is who he is.
And I have to find someway to let go of that dream
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Join Date: Jul 2023
Posts: 134
Hello Oynet,
Sometimes when we are at the mercy of emotional overwhelm, it helps to focus our mind on reading information which is more clinical and rational. (Just as a therapist will help us in the direction of rational thinking and away from stress-induced, highly emotional, incorrect thinking).
If you google "Wikipedia Traumatic Bonding" you will bring up the page describing various types and situations of traumatic bonding. There are many varieties and levels.
To keep it simple, and related, I think, to your situation, I recommend reading just these parts:
Under the Context section, in bold print, the information on Intermittent Reinforcement.
Under the Outcomes section, in bold print, the information on Staying In Abusive Relationships.
It has always helped me when I go looking for guidance and deeper understanding, to research. And often the answer has stood right up off the page and spoken to me.
My only other suggestion is to go 45 days no contact in any form (this would include no contact with his mother or mutual friends). Take this time and space to educate yourself about abusive relationships. You can read books by Susan Forward, for example. You can ask your higher power to guide you to the right information.
Hang in there. You are lost in the storm but land and calm skies are ahead.
Sometimes when we are at the mercy of emotional overwhelm, it helps to focus our mind on reading information which is more clinical and rational. (Just as a therapist will help us in the direction of rational thinking and away from stress-induced, highly emotional, incorrect thinking).
If you google "Wikipedia Traumatic Bonding" you will bring up the page describing various types and situations of traumatic bonding. There are many varieties and levels.
To keep it simple, and related, I think, to your situation, I recommend reading just these parts:
Under the Context section, in bold print, the information on Intermittent Reinforcement.
Under the Outcomes section, in bold print, the information on Staying In Abusive Relationships.
It has always helped me when I go looking for guidance and deeper understanding, to research. And often the answer has stood right up off the page and spoken to me.
My only other suggestion is to go 45 days no contact in any form (this would include no contact with his mother or mutual friends). Take this time and space to educate yourself about abusive relationships. You can read books by Susan Forward, for example. You can ask your higher power to guide you to the right information.
Hang in there. You are lost in the storm but land and calm skies are ahead.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2024
Posts: 55
Originally Posted by LucyIntheGarden
Hello
My only other suggestion is to go 45 days no contact in any form (this would include no contact with his mother or mutual friends).
Hang in there. You are lost in the storm but land and calm skies are ahead.
My only other suggestion is to go 45 days no contact in any form (this would include no contact with his mother or mutual friends).
Hang in there. You are lost in the storm but land and calm skies are ahead.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2024
Posts: 55
Originally Posted by trailmix
You sit on one side of the ocean and think - if he would quit drinking and get in to recovery, all would be well. He sits on the other side and thinks, if she would just let the no drinking/recovery thing go, all would be well.
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Originally Posted by trailmix
In fact (and I don't mean this harshly) what you are saying to him is you are not good enough, for me, the way you are. If you change what you are, I will accept you. I just want to control what you do for your own good.
Now he's asking the same thing of you and isn't that insulting!? But what you are asking of him is also insulting (to him). Where is the respect for him and his choices? Why do you believe that you know better than him what he should or shouldn't be doing.
Now I'm not saying you should throw in the towel, only you can make that decision. But you may have to accept him just the way he is, alcohol and all. We can't change people (and really should we try?), he is who he is.
What exactly do you see? What is the dream (because what you are experiencing now doesn't seem very dreamy!).
Now he's asking the same thing of you and isn't that insulting!? But what you are asking of him is also insulting (to him). Where is the respect for him and his choices? Why do you believe that you know better than him what he should or shouldn't be doing.
Now I'm not saying you should throw in the towel, only you can make that decision. But you may have to accept him just the way he is, alcohol and all. We can't change people (and really should we try?), he is who he is.
What exactly do you see? What is the dream (because what you are experiencing now doesn't seem very dreamy!).
And no. What I am dealing with right now is not dreamy. At all.
But when we are together??
The first two weeks we ever spent together I got Covid. He was.. incredible. Looking after me. Showering me. Caring for me. As someone who needs a partner that won't be scared by caring responsibilities it was ... everything. He laughs and cries when we watch movies together. We take turns picking, and he wasn't ashamed to love Bridgerton and sob like a baby. He pushes me to be better, he challenges my writing. We tease each other when we game. We talk about everything and anything. He is not afraid to stand up for what he believes or admit when he is wrong.
The life we had together on my last visit is the dream. Traveling together - we camped and flew to a conference. We visited friends and my family. I went shopping with his Mom. We ate takeout on the couch watching hockey and giving each other crap when our teams played each other. I lay in bed reading a book while he played a game with his mates. He helped me lift couches when I saved a bunch of animals from a fire. He got up with me overnight when I had to bottlefeed kittens. He cleaned foster kittens eyes and insisted I wait for his help to hang shelves. He dropped everything to get ice for my ankle when I sprained it simple because I said it was annoying me. I cooked dinner while he teased me about being a messy cook and cleaning up after me.
THAT is the dream. THAT was the future I wanted with him.
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Join Date: Feb 2024
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Originally Posted by LucyIntheGarden
Hello Oynet,
Under the Context section, in bold print, the information on Intermittent Reinforcement.
.
Under the Context section, in bold print, the information on Intermittent Reinforcement.
.
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Posts: 1,548
I'm sure you realize that vacationing together and living together are not the same.
It's one thing to accept drinking when you don't have to live with it day in-day out. Living with an alcoholic yourself is your choice, but choosing that flife or your children (even teens) seems short-sighted.
What will happen when he doesn't get a job or can't keep one? Having an apartment of his own provides *some* motivation to provide for himself. When he moves in with you, all expenses paid, what will his motivation be? Why should he do anything at all?
Your assumption seems to be that he can learn to drink like a normal person; he doesn't need to actually quit. Most of us here and elsewhere will tell you it just doesn't work that way. There have been posters here who have thought, "If only the drinking wasn't a problem, everything wold be fine." Even IF the drinking is no longer the coping mechanism, all those things that prompted it have to be dealt with - and all you have is an unhappy person who doesn't drink. There have been posters here who ended up in that situation. You are sad. They were miserable.
It's one thing to accept drinking when you don't have to live with it day in-day out. Living with an alcoholic yourself is your choice, but choosing that flife or your children (even teens) seems short-sighted.
What will happen when he doesn't get a job or can't keep one? Having an apartment of his own provides *some* motivation to provide for himself. When he moves in with you, all expenses paid, what will his motivation be? Why should he do anything at all?
Your assumption seems to be that he can learn to drink like a normal person; he doesn't need to actually quit. Most of us here and elsewhere will tell you it just doesn't work that way. There have been posters here who have thought, "If only the drinking wasn't a problem, everything wold be fine." Even IF the drinking is no longer the coping mechanism, all those things that prompted it have to be dealt with - and all you have is an unhappy person who doesn't drink. There have been posters here who ended up in that situation. You are sad. They were miserable.
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Join Date: Mar 2014
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Wow.
You are certainly an optimist, I'll give you that Oynnet.
I was in a long distance relationship for about six months. It was a long lost high school friend. He was (gently) pushing for me to move 3000 miles and move in with him. I have to say, that was really a scary prospect for me, and I wasn't even being asked to change countries.
After going through that I know that there is no way I'd change countries for someone I was dating. I went through months of being unsure and conflicted, and he was asking me to move to a beautiful vacation destination. If I had been sure it would have been a great move. Set aside the drinking and the financial difficulties your guy is having and look at it from his side. YOU would be fine if the relationship didn't work out. HE would be stuck in another country, unable to work (because Americans can't just work legally and easily in AU) and he would be in big trouble. No friends nearby. No family. How would he get home, and where would he live or work when he got back to America?
I don't blame him one bit for not wanting to make the move. I also understand his ambivalence. I'm sure he enjoyed your time together too. I've had a few of these short intense relationships. They're fantastic. Don't have to deal with day to day frustrations and life.
Maybe this was a way for you both to learn how to pick more accessible and stable people with whom to get involved.
You are certainly an optimist, I'll give you that Oynnet.
I was in a long distance relationship for about six months. It was a long lost high school friend. He was (gently) pushing for me to move 3000 miles and move in with him. I have to say, that was really a scary prospect for me, and I wasn't even being asked to change countries.
After going through that I know that there is no way I'd change countries for someone I was dating. I went through months of being unsure and conflicted, and he was asking me to move to a beautiful vacation destination. If I had been sure it would have been a great move. Set aside the drinking and the financial difficulties your guy is having and look at it from his side. YOU would be fine if the relationship didn't work out. HE would be stuck in another country, unable to work (because Americans can't just work legally and easily in AU) and he would be in big trouble. No friends nearby. No family. How would he get home, and where would he live or work when he got back to America?
I don't blame him one bit for not wanting to make the move. I also understand his ambivalence. I'm sure he enjoyed your time together too. I've had a few of these short intense relationships. They're fantastic. Don't have to deal with day to day frustrations and life.
Maybe this was a way for you both to learn how to pick more accessible and stable people with whom to get involved.
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Join Date: Nov 2016
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THAT is the dream. THAT was the future I wanted with him.
Those aren't really my questions, but I'm going to guess those are his questions.
Aside from the covid visit, have you two spent time together since then (sorry you went through that btw). Also you were visiting him in the U.S.?
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Originally Posted by trailmix
And who will buy his alcohol? And are you happy for him to drink as much as he wants whenever he wants. If he wants to be drunk 7 days a week, or heck, 5, is that ok?
Those aren't really my questions, but I'm going to guess those are his questions.
Aside from the covid visit, have you two spent time together since then (sorry you went through that btw). Also you were visiting him in the U.S.?
Those aren't really my questions, but I'm going to guess those are his questions.
Aside from the covid visit, have you two spent time together since then (sorry you went through that btw). Also you were visiting him in the U.S.?
as far as booze when he’s here- it all depends on how much savings he has when he comes. We have a joint bank account here in Australia and he can use that as he wishes. Right now it does not have a ton, but I am steadily putting savings in there for him to use while here. he will have a car, he can buy games with it or fast food or yes booze. If our last visits are anything to go by, he drinks maybe one beer a day with dinner, even on the days when I was at work all day and he was home alone. It absolutely naturally reduces when we are together
edit: I should clarify that it feels enabling to be saying that he can drink on money I saved. However, I can’t control it and I can’t cure it.
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