Grappling with Boundaries
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Originally Posted by ringside 
i know you don't see it this way now, but you are working tremendously hard to get yourself and your children into exactly the kind of situation that necessitates forums like this, al-anon, etc. There are countless happier roads to travel than the one you are on. Whatever you do, i wish you the best.
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We will still be here. Please come back when you need us.
Best of luck to you O.
Alateen exists along side alanon, your teenagers may want to look into that if they are going to be dealing with an alcoholic (drinking or dry drunk) in their home.
Best of luck to you O.
Alateen exists along side alanon, your teenagers may want to look into that if they are going to be dealing with an alcoholic (drinking or dry drunk) in their home.
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While taking a walk, I was thinking about this thread and how much interest it has attracted. I think it's because, for those of us who have been in a relationship like this, it's the equivalent of watching a scary movie. We know that you shouldn't enter the empty house with the partially open door, or open the pantry door in the dark kitchen, or enter the bedroom with the cobweb covered bassinet creepily rocking. But the heroine of this story can't see us silently recoiling in fear while mouthing the word "Noooooooo!"
Just know that whatever path you chose, you can find help. You don't need to do it alone.
Just know that whatever path you chose, you can find help. You don't need to do it alone.
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Join Date: Feb 2024
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Well he lasted just under two weeks with the sobriety.
It was actually a social event that tipped him over the edge, we have a DnD game we play with a group of friends once a month. (It was the reason he and I started dating actually.) I had to work the last session, so I was going to miss it for the first time. He was on track to do a thing with his character, and he was anxious about it -and I wasn't there to support him. He ended up drinking to try and give himself courage. :/ He had three beers, and then just ghosted the DnD group (he was so ashamed he didn't go basically). He felt like he failed and drank two beers a night every night since then, until yesterday when he went cold turkey again. (So he drank for 5 days in a row).
From a relationship standpoint he's been making a *heck* of an effort. Even when he slipped, he was trying to repair the damage that had been done. We've had some hard conversations about the future without him hiding from them (which is its own progress as if he drinks his first instinct is to withdraw from conversations).
One of the things he is respecting more is the fact that I am holding him more accountable for his behaviour than I used to. It isn't that I am controlling him or anything, just calling him out - like when he breaks a promise or something.
It was actually a social event that tipped him over the edge, we have a DnD game we play with a group of friends once a month. (It was the reason he and I started dating actually.) I had to work the last session, so I was going to miss it for the first time. He was on track to do a thing with his character, and he was anxious about it -and I wasn't there to support him. He ended up drinking to try and give himself courage. :/ He had three beers, and then just ghosted the DnD group (he was so ashamed he didn't go basically). He felt like he failed and drank two beers a night every night since then, until yesterday when he went cold turkey again. (So he drank for 5 days in a row).
From a relationship standpoint he's been making a *heck* of an effort. Even when he slipped, he was trying to repair the damage that had been done. We've had some hard conversations about the future without him hiding from them (which is its own progress as if he drinks his first instinct is to withdraw from conversations).
One of the things he is respecting more is the fact that I am holding him more accountable for his behaviour than I used to. It isn't that I am controlling him or anything, just calling him out - like when he breaks a promise or something.
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He drank because of a DnD game that he got anxious about. The fact that you weren't there is really not part of this, I don't think.
There is sobriety and there is recovery. He can be sober for a week or two but he isn't dealing with what keeps taking him back there. If he can't deal with the anxiety from a game, that's an issue he needs to get help with.
Not just anxiety, we all have that to greater and lesser degrees, but he has no coping tools. He has gone through life and drugged himself through the anxiety, depression, celebrations, let downs and social situations. He will have to work on those things while staying sober or this is just a roller coaster ride (for both of you).
Do you wonder if the couple of beers a night is true? There is something wrong with this scenario. Why would he be ashamed at the DnD game, they don't care if he drinks. Why drink 2 beers a night, there is no comfort or buzz in that. It just doesn't add up. That said, I could be wrong.
There is sobriety and there is recovery. He can be sober for a week or two but he isn't dealing with what keeps taking him back there. If he can't deal with the anxiety from a game, that's an issue he needs to get help with.
Not just anxiety, we all have that to greater and lesser degrees, but he has no coping tools. He has gone through life and drugged himself through the anxiety, depression, celebrations, let downs and social situations. He will have to work on those things while staying sober or this is just a roller coaster ride (for both of you).
Do you wonder if the couple of beers a night is true? There is something wrong with this scenario. Why would he be ashamed at the DnD game, they don't care if he drinks. Why drink 2 beers a night, there is no comfort or buzz in that. It just doesn't add up. That said, I could be wrong.
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Unfortunately, he is not yet on the abstinence wagon. He still believes he can moderate. So from his perspective, two beers is a win as he controlled himself to stop at two. (The 3 c's right? - this is his journey, and that is where is he on the journey right now, it doesn't matter that I know he's fooling himself.) He's pretty pretty transparent with me, there was one night he started a third beer and proudly told me when he tipped it down the sink and switched to the ice tea I bought last time I was in town. In some respects he 'uses' me to keep himself accountable, he tells me every time he opens a new can so that he can keep track if he does drink too much and black out. I don't know that I love it, but he is at least not hiding it from me *shrug*.
He definitely has a shame cycle though - when he makes any kind of mistake he is so full of self-shame and self-loathing. It wasn't so much that he drank before DnD - because he's been drunk at DnD before (and it is a virtual group so it is only our voices, I'm the only one that can tell when he's drunk or not. He masks well.) - it was that he 'failed' in sobriety and fell down the shame cycle.
He definitely has a shame cycle though - when he makes any kind of mistake he is so full of self-shame and self-loathing. It wasn't so much that he drank before DnD - because he's been drunk at DnD before (and it is a virtual group so it is only our voices, I'm the only one that can tell when he's drunk or not. He masks well.) - it was that he 'failed' in sobriety and fell down the shame cycle.
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I bumped a thread on moderation in the forum here, you might find it interesting if not funny!
Pretty much every alcoholic has that shame, it doesn't stop them necessarily and it's probably just self destructive, but it's there.
Yes, the 3 c's, that's very true, but I think what I am seeing is that you have become his "sponsor". I agree that if a loved one is struggling with something you want to be there for them, but in this case, how long does this go on? It could be years. Especially since he is not addressing the root cause of his alcoholism, well continued alcoholism.
But when you look at it from outside, it just looks like an alcoholic, trying to moderate, which will never, ever work and you are sharing that with him. You know he's fooling himself. But a few days sober is worth that?
I guess, without help, he is just going to end up back where he was, with you cooling your heels waiting for him to - what? To grab on to sobriety?
I'm not too worried about him to be honest, he is going to do what he is going to do. Hopefully he will get help. For you, nothing here has really changed? He's still x number of miles away and he's still drinking (and emotionally not ok).
Has he agreed to come over to you? Is he still working? How are you doing?
Pretty much every alcoholic has that shame, it doesn't stop them necessarily and it's probably just self destructive, but it's there.
Yes, the 3 c's, that's very true, but I think what I am seeing is that you have become his "sponsor". I agree that if a loved one is struggling with something you want to be there for them, but in this case, how long does this go on? It could be years. Especially since he is not addressing the root cause of his alcoholism, well continued alcoholism.
But when you look at it from outside, it just looks like an alcoholic, trying to moderate, which will never, ever work and you are sharing that with him. You know he's fooling himself. But a few days sober is worth that?
I guess, without help, he is just going to end up back where he was, with you cooling your heels waiting for him to - what? To grab on to sobriety?
I'm not too worried about him to be honest, he is going to do what he is going to do. Hopefully he will get help. For you, nothing here has really changed? He's still x number of miles away and he's still drinking (and emotionally not ok).
Has he agreed to come over to you? Is he still working? How are you doing?
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Join Date: Sep 2019
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Hi Oxynet, I have been following this thread and have hesitated replying as I fear I may come off as overly harsh. Trust me, I am here and have put myself in the position I am in because I ignored a million red flags, so please don’t feel I am judging you. I do think that when someone shows you who they are you should believe them, he has clearly showed you who he is. Personally I think, while I am sure he cares about you, the fact that he broke things off when you refused to pay his bills sounds like there is a good chance he is using you. It also sounds like alcohol is only the tip of the iceberg with his struggles. You are not equipped to fix him. Having him move into your home with teenagers sounds like a recipe for chaos and disaster. He is not going to magically get better living in another country, far away from his family with not job or purpose. Please work on getting strong enough to walk away. If he gets better one day and is in a healthy place maybe you can revisit but clearly he is not there. As I am reading this every fiber of my being is screaming run. I know it is much easier said then done but please think about why this situation sounds like a good life plan.
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Hi Oynet,
You might have said this before and I don't remember but do you have other support for yourself in regards to this relationship? Therapist? Alanon group?
For many of us the connection we develop with an alcoholic is amazingly strong. There are probably complex and very real reasons we form these bonds.
Also have you read Melody Beatle's book Codependent No More. ?
Irk, someone has probably already suggested this but I am old and don't remember (-;
You might have said this before and I don't remember but do you have other support for yourself in regards to this relationship? Therapist? Alanon group?
For many of us the connection we develop with an alcoholic is amazingly strong. There are probably complex and very real reasons we form these bonds.
Also have you read Melody Beatle's book Codependent No More. ?
Irk, someone has probably already suggested this but I am old and don't remember (-;
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Join Date: Feb 2024
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Originally Posted by trailmix
Has he agreed to come over to you? Is he still working? How are you doing?
Things between us have been frankly great recently. He has committed in a way he had been holding back before - including meeting some needs of mine that he was previously unable to do. (Physical intimacy at a distance was something he really struggled with due to feeling uncomfortable with feeling like it was 'exhibitionist', but he's been incredible in that regard recently.) He's been kind and engaging with my kids. He also had some intense self-reflection, that every time he pulls back afraid he boomerangs right back to me harder than before. That he hates his life and I am the best thing in it and that he'd be a fool to take that for granted. He also said that he realised that he was acting like a child in a grown mans body, in that he was avoiding everything except gaming. (And in my current frame of mind I am hard agreeing with him).
He took a month of work for his trip to spend a month with me. (He was going to quit if they didn't give him the time off) The idea was for us to have a month to give things a real solid stretch out of vacation mode, and at the end we'd decide if he was staying or going back home. He can't afford his apartment anymore due to a rent increase, so the idea was for his stuff to go in storage and his Mom to take his cat while he was here. I've worked really hard at having everything in place for either option to be plausible.
But this last week has been.. less stellar. His downstairs neighbour went through a family death, and my boyfriend started running some errands for him. Which, unfortunately, included going to the supermarket for a 6 pack of beer. He stayed strong during that, only buying one for himself, until the neighbour repaid him... with a 6 pack. When he woke up again after blacking out he said "I am not to be trusted with a 6 pack". But the result is that he's back to drinking to levels where he drank away his food budget. It also means he is drinking and avoiding everything else - he's decided to keep his apartment month to month when he comes here because he can't be bothered packing.
He has a long history of avoiding everything until last moment, and I don't know how much that is the drink, and how much it is just his personality, but I am highly frustrated.
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Hi Oynnet,
I'm glad you are still posting.
It sounds like he is acting as any alcoholic who wants to keep drinking acts. This is what they do.
He may realize you are the "best thing" in his life but his first love is (and may remain) alcohol.
I hope you read the thread on "moderating". I don't know if it is on this forum or the Newcomer's Forum.
Also I hope you can keep educating yourself about alcoholism and codependency. Many of the realities are not intuitive.
Courage to you in this journey.
I'm glad you are still posting.
It sounds like he is acting as any alcoholic who wants to keep drinking acts. This is what they do.
He may realize you are the "best thing" in his life but his first love is (and may remain) alcohol.
I hope you read the thread on "moderating". I don't know if it is on this forum or the Newcomer's Forum.
Also I hope you can keep educating yourself about alcoholism and codependency. Many of the realities are not intuitive.
Courage to you in this journey.
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Join Date: May 2016
Location: east coast
Posts: 532
It does sound frustrating. It has been a while since I lived with an active alcoholic, and I am happy to be off the merry-go-round. Recently I found an author who is blunt and honest about alcoholism and specifically its effect on the wife/spouse of an alcoholic. The author is Wren Waters. The big problem I had with Alanon is noone told me the bald-faced truth, except one person---- who said after a meeting, "Don't be like me. Don't wait until you are an old lady to get out." Unfortunately, that is exactly what I did! I wish I had read the books by Wren Waters early on. After years of trying- and failing- to improve my alcoholic marriage, I surrendered. Do I have a better life now? You betcha! Could anyone have gotten me out of marrying him early on before things got bad? Nope. If I knew what was coming, I would have RUN!!!
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Join Date: Nov 2016
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Originally Posted by Bekindalways
It sounds like he is acting as any alcoholic who wants to keep drinking acts. This is what they do.
Originally Posted by qtpi
The big problem I had with Alanon is noone told me the bald-faced truth, except one person---- who said after a meeting, "Don't be like me. Don't wait until you are an old lady to get out."
As Bekind said, that's exactly, to a T how an alcoholic who wants to keep drinking acts.
You are taking a hard line now, he is confessing all. All that means is that he believes you accept his drinking now.
You said no to the 5 dollars, but he asked, because he is happy to step on your boundary. That forced you to take the "Mom" roll, which I'm sure you don't want.
The only thing that's really changed here, is you taking a harder line and enforcing your boundaries. Now that is a great thing! But he's still the same.
Who will pay his rent that he can't afford while he is over there? (that will be you btw)
Who will support him while he is with you (yes, that's you too)
But the result is that he's back to drinking to levels where he drank away his food budget.
There is something not right here, you two don't seem to be on the same page? as much as he may be going along with what you suggest (as far as you know).
I only mention this because I hope you will protect yourself, your feelings. You may get really hurt here. I hope not, I hope it goes as you have planned.
He has a lot of work to do obviously, besides getting sober, it could be a long time before you find out who he really is underneath all of that.
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Join Date: Nov 2016
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You know I was just thinking, one other thing that can really help bring clarity is replying to other posts.
You read them here, as you mentioned and probably apply parts of them to your own situation (which is also very helpful) but replying to them brings more clarity because you are then not thinking (so much) about your feelings or his or your conversations/comments. You are thinking, ok how does the "real world" and this "drugged world" interact. We can accept good words (I love you, I want to be with you, I want to marry you) completely, but the negative comments and actions from them are surely their addiction speaking right? That kind of thing.
There is a post in the F&F of substance abusers that made me think of this.
https://www.soberrecovery.com/forums...ml#post8047165 (Boyfriend taking adderall, xanas & alcohol)
What would you tell this person. Anyway, hopefully that will be helpful.
You read them here, as you mentioned and probably apply parts of them to your own situation (which is also very helpful) but replying to them brings more clarity because you are then not thinking (so much) about your feelings or his or your conversations/comments. You are thinking, ok how does the "real world" and this "drugged world" interact. We can accept good words (I love you, I want to be with you, I want to marry you) completely, but the negative comments and actions from them are surely their addiction speaking right? That kind of thing.
There is a post in the F&F of substance abusers that made me think of this.
https://www.soberrecovery.com/forums...ml#post8047165 (Boyfriend taking adderall, xanas & alcohol)
What would you tell this person. Anyway, hopefully that will be helpful.
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Originally Posted by trailmix
^^^^ This!
Who will pay his rent that he can't afford while he is over there? (that will be you btw)
Who will support him while he is with you (yes, that's you too)
There is something not right here, you two don't seem to be on the same page? as much as he may be going along with what you suggest (as far as you know).
Who will pay his rent that he can't afford while he is over there? (that will be you btw)
Who will support him while he is with you (yes, that's you too)
There is something not right here, you two don't seem to be on the same page? as much as he may be going along with what you suggest (as far as you know).
His current job does not pay enough for him to keep his apartment, the rent is going up and he has to move out anyway. So the plan has always been for him to come when his lease ends, put his stuff into storage, and then he won't have those bills when he is with me.
Yesterday, he decided that if he wanted to go back at the end of the month - because he unlike what he lead me to believe has no intention of staying - that moving in with his parents would be too toxic and so he'd rather keep his apartment. And asked me to pay his bills for June.
I said no.
I was always going to support him here - I have some savings on a prepaid card (so he can't access the greater savings) that is just for him while he is here. I worked hard for that money. But I will not bail him out and pay rent on an apartment he cannot afford anyway.
There are real risks he'll simply bail on the trip now. He said that planning it was a mistake because we can't afford it. We can afford it. With his belongings in storage. Not with an apartment.
He said this today: I've had an uncomfortable realization today actually I think I actually like the distance between us And that is definitely a problem for you
And yeah, it is absolutely a problem for me. Because he is a terrible boyfriend at distance. But it made me realise, he likes it because he gets everything he wants, and doesn't have to make any sacrifices.
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There is the alcohol, there is him and there is you, in that order. It will always work out that way while he is in active alcoholism.
The only solution is for him to quit drinking and he's not going to, certainly not right now. He has been pushed in to a corner (well really he backed himself in to it), where the only way out of his predicament is you paying his rent. That's only a short term fix of course, even when he goes back (which is his intention) he will still have to pay the following month - but gosh, he couldn't work when he was visiting so can you pay July as well?
Some people manipulate by default, it's how they understand the workings of the world, or at the very least believe/understand that is the only way to get what they want. It's a very underhanded way to be, but I think at some point the shame of that drops away as it becomes just how they "are".
I think others do it with a coldness, think sociopath - that's how I see him from what you have described.
He said he didn't want to give up his apartment because he can't be bothered packing. What? Who does that? To do that and expect your girlfriend to pay for it while you are on "holiday" because you never had any intention of staying, that's pretty cold.
I also don't think he is outright lying to you, he's just leaving out huge bits of the truth. Because the truth is ugly.
Translated, how can you pay for this trip and pay for his rent and bills too?
This is more nonsense. What man wants to be in a relationship with someone who is in another country, period. He's just trying to back it up a bit here. But you won't play! (or pay).
He may be a terrible bf from a distance but he will also be a terrible bf in person.
Yes, he will probably back out shortly and the rent will be his excuse.
The only solution is for him to quit drinking and he's not going to, certainly not right now. He has been pushed in to a corner (well really he backed himself in to it), where the only way out of his predicament is you paying his rent. That's only a short term fix of course, even when he goes back (which is his intention) he will still have to pay the following month - but gosh, he couldn't work when he was visiting so can you pay July as well?
Some people manipulate by default, it's how they understand the workings of the world, or at the very least believe/understand that is the only way to get what they want. It's a very underhanded way to be, but I think at some point the shame of that drops away as it becomes just how they "are".
I think others do it with a coldness, think sociopath - that's how I see him from what you have described.
He said he didn't want to give up his apartment because he can't be bothered packing. What? Who does that? To do that and expect your girlfriend to pay for it while you are on "holiday" because you never had any intention of staying, that's pretty cold.
I also don't think he is outright lying to you, he's just leaving out huge bits of the truth. Because the truth is ugly.
He said that planning it was a mistake because we can't afford it.
I've had an uncomfortable realization today actually I think I actually like the distance between us And that is definitely a problem for you
He may be a terrible bf from a distance but he will also be a terrible bf in person.
Yes, he will probably back out shortly and the rent will be his excuse.
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I was watching online when a woman phoned a talk-show for advice. She'd been dating a married man for - - six years. Not surprisingly, he hadn't made any progress in divorcing.
So he's getting his cake and eating it too. But why would a woman put up with this? She's not a babe in the woods, she's not 25, she was in her forties or so.
Maybe, just maybe I wondered, she liked some aspects of this relationship. She didn't have to pick up after him. She never saw him in dirty, ragged clothes trying to fix things around the house. She wasn't looking after children, or listening to him fume about his job. They didn't argue about who takes out the garbage or whether the bills got paid. They only saw one another when they wanted to. The time they spend together is kind of vacation from their everyday lives.
And there's this, too: She didn't have to put herself out there and get rejected. In the back of her mind, "Chad" was taken and couldn't commit to her. If she was in the marketplace with real single men who could. If they didn't or wouldn't, she might be afraid of examining herself to see why. That can be painful.
I get it, because after I was widowed, I was seeing someone kind of long distance. He wasn't a great match for me, we were never going to be together long term, but frankly, my lifestyle wasn't affected because we only actually were together maybe one weekend a month or so. The rest of the time was pleasant anticipation. Eventually I wanted more. I was willing to adapt my life to include a real partner, and take the risk of being rejected, but your boyfriend may never evolve to that point.
So he's getting his cake and eating it too. But why would a woman put up with this? She's not a babe in the woods, she's not 25, she was in her forties or so.
Maybe, just maybe I wondered, she liked some aspects of this relationship. She didn't have to pick up after him. She never saw him in dirty, ragged clothes trying to fix things around the house. She wasn't looking after children, or listening to him fume about his job. They didn't argue about who takes out the garbage or whether the bills got paid. They only saw one another when they wanted to. The time they spend together is kind of vacation from their everyday lives.
And there's this, too: She didn't have to put herself out there and get rejected. In the back of her mind, "Chad" was taken and couldn't commit to her. If she was in the marketplace with real single men who could. If they didn't or wouldn't, she might be afraid of examining herself to see why. That can be painful.
I get it, because after I was widowed, I was seeing someone kind of long distance. He wasn't a great match for me, we were never going to be together long term, but frankly, my lifestyle wasn't affected because we only actually were together maybe one weekend a month or so. The rest of the time was pleasant anticipation. Eventually I wanted more. I was willing to adapt my life to include a real partner, and take the risk of being rejected, but your boyfriend may never evolve to that point.
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