Grappling with Boundaries
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Join Date: Feb 2024
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Grappling with Boundaries
Hi all, I am new to joining the forum, though I have been reading along for a while.
My situation is maybe unique to anything I have found here though, so I guess I am reaching out for support in setting and maintaining boundaries while my boyfriend tackles his alcoholism and addiction to weed.
In a nutshell, he and I met in 2020 at a virtual conference and have been friends ever since. We started dating a year ago, with intense highs and lows - we almost got married in June so that he could remain in my country. Yes. We are long distance - and I mean LONG. He is in the USA and I am in Australia. I knew when we started dating that he struggled with sobriety, I wasn't aware quite how bad it was at the time. I do now.
He is also battling depression. Each time I visited him or he visited me he finds it much easier to moderate and reduce his intake and drinking. In part because I ease the loneliness and depression for him because we are together. Our last trip I set a hard boundary to ending the distance, in that one of us has to move for the relationship to continue. He was 100% on board. At least, then he was. As soon as I went home he started hesitating. I own my own home, he rents. I have children (teens), he does not.He just recently lost his job, found a new one he hates that doesn't meet his bills, I have stable work. He has to move out of his apartment because he can no longer afford it. I had to pay all of his bills for January because of the lost jobs and he drank away whatever money he did have. I said no I wouldn't, and he basically forced me to out of the savings I have set aside for a move. I still resent him for crossing that boundary. In fact, I have been financially supporting him for most of our relationship (of which I feel incredible guilty about how I've enabled him now).
Therefore it has to be him to move first, at least for a few years so my oldest can finish high school. The end game is moving back to his country where we both have family.
However, this is where things get tricky. Though he has been trying to reduce his alcohol intake for our entire relationship, he has never had success beyond two days. Unless I am with him. (Note I said reduce not quit) He refuses AA. (hates their philosophies after his father went through AA). He cannot afford therapy to deal with the underlying depression.He is in crisis mode - he has just lost his best friend of 10 years due to his refusal to stop drinking and the way he is treating me. I am all he currently has as he has pushed everyone else away. He says he is serious about wanting to get sober right now. Except that he's just drank at least 4 beers and picked a fight with a mutual friend of ours, and gone to bed at 6pm. I know him, and I know his patterns. The way he currently has a path set out is doomed to failure because he cannot afford the help he wants or needs. He cannot go more than a single day without a drink, no matter how much he desires that.
He has made some demands of me that I fundamentally feel are emotional blackmail at the very least. He makes a great deal about needing me and needing connections to people and how I am the person he trusts and needs the most. How he cannot face loosing me. And this is where I need support. Because his refusal to respect my boundaries means he *is* losing me. No matter how much I love him.
I know that I cannot control or cure anything for him. I do not wish to. He has to battle these demons for himself. But I feel like he is currently overturning my boundaries to have things the way he wants instead of what is reality.
He cannot access therapy where he is. He cannot afford his bills. I am refusing to financially support him. I *am* offering him a move to my country and my house that I afford on my own, which includes access to a medical system that will better support his depression needs. He can then focus on his alcohol needs while being properly supported by professionals. Instead of leaning solely on me to the exclusion of everything else. This also satisfies my need to end the distance, and stop feeling so resentful that he is taking and never giving.
I will not be in a half committed 'on the sidelines' relationship.Things cannot stay in the same toxic cycle they have been on the last few months as he wavers between wanting to come and not wanting to come. He needs to chose to respect my boundaries, or choose to leave.
I don't know if I am being as blind as he is on this. Maybe I am.
My situation is maybe unique to anything I have found here though, so I guess I am reaching out for support in setting and maintaining boundaries while my boyfriend tackles his alcoholism and addiction to weed.
In a nutshell, he and I met in 2020 at a virtual conference and have been friends ever since. We started dating a year ago, with intense highs and lows - we almost got married in June so that he could remain in my country. Yes. We are long distance - and I mean LONG. He is in the USA and I am in Australia. I knew when we started dating that he struggled with sobriety, I wasn't aware quite how bad it was at the time. I do now.
He is also battling depression. Each time I visited him or he visited me he finds it much easier to moderate and reduce his intake and drinking. In part because I ease the loneliness and depression for him because we are together. Our last trip I set a hard boundary to ending the distance, in that one of us has to move for the relationship to continue. He was 100% on board. At least, then he was. As soon as I went home he started hesitating. I own my own home, he rents. I have children (teens), he does not.He just recently lost his job, found a new one he hates that doesn't meet his bills, I have stable work. He has to move out of his apartment because he can no longer afford it. I had to pay all of his bills for January because of the lost jobs and he drank away whatever money he did have. I said no I wouldn't, and he basically forced me to out of the savings I have set aside for a move. I still resent him for crossing that boundary. In fact, I have been financially supporting him for most of our relationship (of which I feel incredible guilty about how I've enabled him now).
Therefore it has to be him to move first, at least for a few years so my oldest can finish high school. The end game is moving back to his country where we both have family.
However, this is where things get tricky. Though he has been trying to reduce his alcohol intake for our entire relationship, he has never had success beyond two days. Unless I am with him. (Note I said reduce not quit) He refuses AA. (hates their philosophies after his father went through AA). He cannot afford therapy to deal with the underlying depression.He is in crisis mode - he has just lost his best friend of 10 years due to his refusal to stop drinking and the way he is treating me. I am all he currently has as he has pushed everyone else away. He says he is serious about wanting to get sober right now. Except that he's just drank at least 4 beers and picked a fight with a mutual friend of ours, and gone to bed at 6pm. I know him, and I know his patterns. The way he currently has a path set out is doomed to failure because he cannot afford the help he wants or needs. He cannot go more than a single day without a drink, no matter how much he desires that.
He has made some demands of me that I fundamentally feel are emotional blackmail at the very least. He makes a great deal about needing me and needing connections to people and how I am the person he trusts and needs the most. How he cannot face loosing me. And this is where I need support. Because his refusal to respect my boundaries means he *is* losing me. No matter how much I love him.
I know that I cannot control or cure anything for him. I do not wish to. He has to battle these demons for himself. But I feel like he is currently overturning my boundaries to have things the way he wants instead of what is reality.
He cannot access therapy where he is. He cannot afford his bills. I am refusing to financially support him. I *am* offering him a move to my country and my house that I afford on my own, which includes access to a medical system that will better support his depression needs. He can then focus on his alcohol needs while being properly supported by professionals. Instead of leaning solely on me to the exclusion of everything else. This also satisfies my need to end the distance, and stop feeling so resentful that he is taking and never giving.
I will not be in a half committed 'on the sidelines' relationship.Things cannot stay in the same toxic cycle they have been on the last few months as he wavers between wanting to come and not wanting to come. He needs to chose to respect my boundaries, or choose to leave.
I don't know if I am being as blind as he is on this. Maybe I am.
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Join Date: May 2012
Location: canada
Posts: 7,242
just a short note from a sober alcoholic, Oynnet:
YOU need to respect your boundaries.
they are about you and where you draw your lines for yourself.
they are not about him and what he does.
when/if you respect the boundaries you set for and by yourself, your path will be clearer.
YOU need to respect your boundaries.
they are about you and where you draw your lines for yourself.
they are not about him and what he does.
when/if you respect the boundaries you set for and by yourself, your path will be clearer.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 8,649
hi Oynnet, glad you found the forum.
As fini said, your boundaries are all about you, so when you mentioned feeling resentment toward him for "crossing that boundary" it perhaps means that you aren't really clear on boundaries? What you've given him is a rule, not a boundary. So for instance, a rule would be:
Don't ever ask me for any financial support or try to make me feel guilty about not financially supporting you.
A boundary would be:
I will not financially support anyone except myself and my non-adult children.
See the difference there? With a rule, you are asking someone else to follow your rule. They don't have to, they don't even have to listen to it. There is no real repercussion for not following it and really, rules are only for kids.
With the boundary, that is totally within your control, the other person doesn't have to do a single thing and they don't get a say in your boundary. It's yours. You are the only person you can control, so that works well.
He is struggling with wanting to quit drinking in my opinion. He may well love you very much, as much as he is capable of while being in active addiction. You really don't want to be his anchor do you? He may well feel better (for now) when he is with you, but that's a change of scenery, you taking care of everything etc. He'll quit drinking when he is ready, not just because he's feeling better about being somewhere else. It's a false illusion. I'm sure he wants to believe it, but is it true? If love and care could cure alcoholism - well you get the drift.
He is taking advantage. I'm sure he says he would do the same for you! Well he might, if he had a better paying job. Is unemployment high there, is there any reason he can't get a better paying job?
As an aside, I assume he doesn't have U.S. citizenship, so it could take up to a year even for him to get a K1 visa to come to the U.S. and even then he won't be able to even look for a job for several months. You could be setting yourself up here. Has he ever had a DUI?
If he's serious about all this, are there zero places for alcoholism treatment in Australia that he could attend? If he's serious wouldn't he at least try AA? Or Smart Recovery or some support, anything, his GP.
Anyway I think he's pondering moving where he will be forced to quit or not. He may say he wants to quit but perhaps ask him does he want to quit or does he really just want to want to quit.
As fini said, your boundaries are all about you, so when you mentioned feeling resentment toward him for "crossing that boundary" it perhaps means that you aren't really clear on boundaries? What you've given him is a rule, not a boundary. So for instance, a rule would be:
Don't ever ask me for any financial support or try to make me feel guilty about not financially supporting you.
A boundary would be:
I will not financially support anyone except myself and my non-adult children.
See the difference there? With a rule, you are asking someone else to follow your rule. They don't have to, they don't even have to listen to it. There is no real repercussion for not following it and really, rules are only for kids.
With the boundary, that is totally within your control, the other person doesn't have to do a single thing and they don't get a say in your boundary. It's yours. You are the only person you can control, so that works well.
He is struggling with wanting to quit drinking in my opinion. He may well love you very much, as much as he is capable of while being in active addiction. You really don't want to be his anchor do you? He may well feel better (for now) when he is with you, but that's a change of scenery, you taking care of everything etc. He'll quit drinking when he is ready, not just because he's feeling better about being somewhere else. It's a false illusion. I'm sure he wants to believe it, but is it true? If love and care could cure alcoholism - well you get the drift.
He is taking advantage. I'm sure he says he would do the same for you! Well he might, if he had a better paying job. Is unemployment high there, is there any reason he can't get a better paying job?
As an aside, I assume he doesn't have U.S. citizenship, so it could take up to a year even for him to get a K1 visa to come to the U.S. and even then he won't be able to even look for a job for several months. You could be setting yourself up here. Has he ever had a DUI?
If he's serious about all this, are there zero places for alcoholism treatment in Australia that he could attend? If he's serious wouldn't he at least try AA? Or Smart Recovery or some support, anything, his GP.
Anyway I think he's pondering moving where he will be forced to quit or not. He may say he wants to quit but perhaps ask him does he want to quit or does he really just want to want to quit.
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Join Date: Feb 2024
Posts: 55
Originally Posted by trailmix 
hi Oynnet, glad you found the forum.
As an aside, I assume he doesn't have U.S. citizenship, so it could take up to a year even for him to get a K1 visa to come to the U.S. and even then he won't be able to even look for a job for several months. You could be setting yourself up here. Has he ever had a DUI?
If he's serious about all this, are there zero places for alcoholism treatment in Australia that he could attend? If he's serious wouldn't he at least try AA? Or Smart Recovery or some support, anything, his GP.
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As an aside, I assume he doesn't have U.S. citizenship, so it could take up to a year even for him to get a K1 visa to come to the U.S. and even then he won't be able to even look for a job for several months. You could be setting yourself up here. Has he ever had a DUI?
If he's serious about all this, are there zero places for alcoholism treatment in Australia that he could attend? If he's serious wouldn't he at least try AA? Or Smart Recovery or some support, anything, his GP.
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I see what you are both saying about Boundaries.
I think the most recent example was when he lost his job. I flat out told him that it was my boundary that I could not financially support him. Even though I had the money in savings.That money was for us to be together, not to support him in the US. And he begged and pleaded and raged and he had a full on panic attack because he had $6 to his name and was going to get evicted. I caved, which I don't feel good about.
My current boundary is perhaps not a boundary at all like I thought - because it is that we close the distance to continue the relationship. The way I had it worded was "I need you to move here, and if you cannot I need to end the relationship" - except when I did try to end the relationship he fought hard to keep it and said he was going to come. But then... waffled back and forth on it - delaying the decision as much as he could. I did actually end the relationship once and he did not stop contacting me daily and we ended up back together stuck in the same loop. This was why his best friend ended up blocking him.
His current stance is that he does want to end the distance... when he is "better" and sober. He wants me to stay in the same status we currently are, in stasis as it were. Rather than work on getting sober while we are together. Which I am seeing as violating my boundary of needing to end the distance or end the relationship (which I feel like I can't actually end because I *know* he will spiral if I do)
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Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Litchfield Park, AZ
Posts: 319
You state that you know you can't cure him, but you also feel that being with you helps him reduce his drinking. You believe that you reduce his loneliness and depression. In the short term that may be true.
One of the realities of alcoholism is that it is a progressive disease. It doesn't get better, it only get's worse. Back in the days before AA, (and now there are other options), the prognosis for alcoholics was madness and death. It was a pretty bleak outcome. You rightly recognize that the path he is on is doomed to failure, although I'd challenge your analysis of why it's doomed. It's not doomed because he can't afford the help he needs. Rather, he can't afford the help he needs because he is an alcoholic. He drinks away his income, he makes poor decisions, he can't hold a job or save money. That's not a judgement, that's just a fact.
When we understand that "three C's", that we didn't cause the alcoholic to drink, we can't control their drinking and that we can't cure the alcoholic, it frees up a lot of misplaced energy and effort. It lets us focus on the one thing in life we can control: ourselves. We can work on setting boundaries, (and not caving). We can learn that "No" is a complete sentence and that arguing with an alcoholic is an exercise in irrationality (and doomed to failure). And maybe: "We will love others without losing ourselves, and will learn to accept love in return."
I learned about the three C's, and so much more, by attending Al-Anon meetings. I highly recommend it to anyone living with an alcoholic, particularly an active alcoholic. In that program, we're counseled to offer the alcoholic encouragement and support...but in a way that doesn't require us to sacrifice our own serenity and happiness.
I hope you find peace.
One of the realities of alcoholism is that it is a progressive disease. It doesn't get better, it only get's worse. Back in the days before AA, (and now there are other options), the prognosis for alcoholics was madness and death. It was a pretty bleak outcome. You rightly recognize that the path he is on is doomed to failure, although I'd challenge your analysis of why it's doomed. It's not doomed because he can't afford the help he needs. Rather, he can't afford the help he needs because he is an alcoholic. He drinks away his income, he makes poor decisions, he can't hold a job or save money. That's not a judgement, that's just a fact.
When we understand that "three C's", that we didn't cause the alcoholic to drink, we can't control their drinking and that we can't cure the alcoholic, it frees up a lot of misplaced energy and effort. It lets us focus on the one thing in life we can control: ourselves. We can work on setting boundaries, (and not caving). We can learn that "No" is a complete sentence and that arguing with an alcoholic is an exercise in irrationality (and doomed to failure). And maybe: "We will love others without losing ourselves, and will learn to accept love in return."
I learned about the three C's, and so much more, by attending Al-Anon meetings. I highly recommend it to anyone living with an alcoholic, particularly an active alcoholic. In that program, we're counseled to offer the alcoholic encouragement and support...but in a way that doesn't require us to sacrifice our own serenity and happiness.
I hope you find peace.
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Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Boston
Posts: 2,936
Oynnet,
As the sister to A brothers who burned through many lovely women and it never stopped their drinking or poor choices I urge you to really take a deep breath and slow this all way down.
You already seem to feel an overinflated sense of responsibility for this grown man. What happens if, after an expensive move to Australia, where I assume his support system will be YOU, his drinking continues to spiral (which I would 100% count on). Now you've let an active, highly dependent alcoholic into your house! This stuff gets messy, expensive, disappointing, and consequential very quickly.
No decent partner ever does this: "He basically forced me to out of the savings I have set aside for a move." This is a huge red flag. Is there something about the way this man operates that seems to cause you to break your own boundary, like do you have any history of alcoholics in your family of origin? Because remember you could have just said "No." That's a complete sentence and maintains your own boundary. And (fireworks) watch what happens when you tell an alcoholic "no!"
It has taken me lots of AlAnon meetings and counseling and reading to learn that many of the toxic dynamics I learned growing up with an A Father and 3 A brothers made me the type of person who didn't have good boundaries, could be manipulated, and who tolerated chaotic things in the extreme that were really not OK.
Before I made a huge decision like sponsoring this person to move 10,000 miles from their home country, I would have a few sessions with a counselor who understands addiction and just read them your opening post here. Lots of great stuff to get started on a healing journey for you! Maybe let the "gift" of this man be that he spurred you to get into counseling and to start growing the greatest and most beneficial love of your life which is loving yourself enough to protect and care for you!!
Peace and glad you're here!
B
As the sister to A brothers who burned through many lovely women and it never stopped their drinking or poor choices I urge you to really take a deep breath and slow this all way down.
You already seem to feel an overinflated sense of responsibility for this grown man. What happens if, after an expensive move to Australia, where I assume his support system will be YOU, his drinking continues to spiral (which I would 100% count on). Now you've let an active, highly dependent alcoholic into your house! This stuff gets messy, expensive, disappointing, and consequential very quickly.
No decent partner ever does this: "He basically forced me to out of the savings I have set aside for a move." This is a huge red flag. Is there something about the way this man operates that seems to cause you to break your own boundary, like do you have any history of alcoholics in your family of origin? Because remember you could have just said "No." That's a complete sentence and maintains your own boundary. And (fireworks) watch what happens when you tell an alcoholic "no!"
It has taken me lots of AlAnon meetings and counseling and reading to learn that many of the toxic dynamics I learned growing up with an A Father and 3 A brothers made me the type of person who didn't have good boundaries, could be manipulated, and who tolerated chaotic things in the extreme that were really not OK.
Before I made a huge decision like sponsoring this person to move 10,000 miles from their home country, I would have a few sessions with a counselor who understands addiction and just read them your opening post here. Lots of great stuff to get started on a healing journey for you! Maybe let the "gift" of this man be that he spurred you to get into counseling and to start growing the greatest and most beneficial love of your life which is loving yourself enough to protect and care for you!!
Peace and glad you're here!
B
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Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 25,373
He's pulling your leg. I live in the U.S., and if he wanted insurance or a better job he could very easily get both those things - if he was sober. Even just getting a job with a mid-sized employer would get him insurance. We're not in a third world country. Even if he was self-employed, the state offers insurance. If he's living below the poverty line there is free insurance through his state website and insurance (even free Medicaid) covers addiction treatment. You could check that out, so you could see his lying. There is also sliding scale regular insurance through the state if his employers don't provide it - which most companies do, it's cheaper to insure an employee than pay fines. He's lying, or he's so out of it he can't figure it out...or both.
He just doesn't want to do anything. Why should he? You're offering him a free ride. That's not helpful to any adult.
You're being gaslit. On all of this.
If he comes to AU, be prepared for more grief than you've ever known, and more lies than you could even believe is possible. This man-child-alcoholic-drug addict is not a good investment in your future happiness!
He just doesn't want to do anything. Why should he? You're offering him a free ride. That's not helpful to any adult.
You're being gaslit. On all of this.
If he comes to AU, be prepared for more grief than you've ever known, and more lies than you could even believe is possible. This man-child-alcoholic-drug addict is not a good investment in your future happiness!
Member
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 8,649
Originally Posted by Oynnet
His current stance is that he does want to end the distance... when he is "better" and sober. He wants me to stay in the same status we currently are, in stasis as it were. Rather than work on getting sober while we are together. Which I am seeing as violating my boundary of needing to end the distance or end the relationship (which I feel like I can't actually end because I *know* he will spiral if I do)
As others have mentioned, this isn't going perhaps where you hope it would.
"I need you to move here, and if you cannot I need to end the relationship"
I will not continue in any long distance relationship where the person will not give me a firm date for moving and back that up (with a plane ticket for example, not next week or a month from now).
So with that boundary, this relationship is over.
He is just sitting, waiting, wanting your support, certainly as a confidant and probably as a financial support. He is grappling with quitting drinking. If he comes to Australia, you require him to get treatment right away, he doesn't want to, at least right now.
So what you want or need him to do and what he is willing to do are very different.
Now it's up to you to hold that boundary, for yourself and your kids and really your happiness. This could go on for years.
At the very least some time of no contact would be beneficial to you, to clear the FOG, (fear, obligation, guilt). You didn't Cause it, can't Control it and can't Cure it (the 3 c's).
He can't be who you want him to be.
(and by the way, who is he to rage at you to send him your savings!).
Member
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 8,649
I just want to say as well, I know this is very hurtful to you. I'm sure you are just trying to cope with the reality of all this and that's hard.
You will be ok, you will find a path, you will heal, but for right now, just getting through each day might be difficult. I'm sorry you are getting hurt in all this.
Focusing your energy back on yourself and taking good care of yourself is kind of paramount right now and will help you to get through all this.
You will be ok, you will find a path, you will heal, but for right now, just getting through each day might be difficult. I'm sorry you are getting hurt in all this.
Focusing your energy back on yourself and taking good care of yourself is kind of paramount right now and will help you to get through all this.
RIP Sweet Suki
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: In my sanctuary, my home
Posts: 39,921
Originally Posted by biminiblue
He's pulling your leg. I live in the U.S., and if he wanted insurance or a better job he could very easily get both those things - if he was sober. Even just getting a job with a mid-sized employer would get him insurance. We're not in a third world country. Even if he was self-employed, the state offers insurance. If he's living below the poverty line there is free insurance through his state website and insurance (even free Medicaid) covers addiction treatment. You could check that out, so you could see his lying. There is also sliding scale regular insurance through the state if his employers don't provide it - which most companies do, it's cheaper to insure an employee than pay fines. He's lying, or he's so out of it he can't figure it out...or both.
He just doesn't want to do anything. Why should he? You're offering him a free ride. That's not helpful to any adult.
You're being gaslit. On all of this.
If he comes to AU, be prepared for more grief than you've ever known, and more lies than you could even believe is possible. This man-child-alcoholic-drug addict is not a good investment in your future happiness!
He just doesn't want to do anything. Why should he? You're offering him a free ride. That's not helpful to any adult.
You're being gaslit. On all of this.
If he comes to AU, be prepared for more grief than you've ever known, and more lies than you could even believe is possible. This man-child-alcoholic-drug addict is not a good investment in your future happiness!
^^^^THIS!!!^^^^
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2024
Posts: 55
Originally Posted by Bernadette
Oynnet,
Is there something about the way this man operates that seems to cause you to break your own boundary, like do you have any history of alcoholics in your family of origin?
B[/color]
Is there something about the way this man operates that seems to cause you to break your own boundary, like do you have any history of alcoholics in your family of origin?
B[/color]
For those of you commenting on the insurance - his employer only hires him for 36 hours so that they don't need to provide insurance. He makes too much for free insurance, but cannot afford the sliding scale due to drinking. So he's always gone without. Health insurance is the major reason I wouldn't move there first (I am a dual US citizen) due to the fact I have diagnosis that require medical insurance.
I do want to respond directly to Bernadette - because I had to think really hard about what they asked me. I have no one in my family who were alcoholics. I have never dated anyone like this. I have no prior experience at all. My boyfriend is the first person I have ever had in my life with this problem. HOWEVER, I *have* dealt with depression. Both personally (I was in a bad place before my daughter was born) and in my family - my father committed suicide 15 years ago. My mother still struggles with it. It took me a lot of therapy to work on my personal depression, though I still have moments where I need to actively practice what I know to be true.
In thinking about this question you asked me, I realized I act like this because of his depression. It isn't his path to sobriety I am focusing on. Not really. It is his depression - which I know logically goes hand in hand with the drinking.
Almost as if I can support him getting help for the depression I will magically enable him to be able to do his own work on sobriety. Maybe I am seriously misguided.
I want to say thank you to you all. None of this was easy to hear, but I needed to hear it.
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Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 674
Dear Oynnet,
Your post brought me back many years to a time when I moved in with my alcoholic boyfriend. I had teenage children too at the time. At first, I was the savior; he felt so much better with me, less lonely, less anxious...all of it, and within 4 short months I became the "cause" of his drinking. He said he "drank because I didn't trust him not to". I almost had a nervous breakdown, I got out, I took care of myself and my children and I lived alone for 3 years. My alcoholic boyfriend had no one to blame but himself when I moved out.
I had no prior experience with alcoholism either at that time, but I sure did get an education. I went to Al-anon, and I found this wonderful forum. I am glad that you have found Sober Recovery as well. There is so much wisdom and experience here. I have learned that the individual stories of alcoholics and the people who love them are more alike than they are different.
I wish you the best, but I also agree that bringing this man into your family would be something you would most certainly regret and very soon.
Your post brought me back many years to a time when I moved in with my alcoholic boyfriend. I had teenage children too at the time. At first, I was the savior; he felt so much better with me, less lonely, less anxious...all of it, and within 4 short months I became the "cause" of his drinking. He said he "drank because I didn't trust him not to". I almost had a nervous breakdown, I got out, I took care of myself and my children and I lived alone for 3 years. My alcoholic boyfriend had no one to blame but himself when I moved out.
I had no prior experience with alcoholism either at that time, but I sure did get an education. I went to Al-anon, and I found this wonderful forum. I am glad that you have found Sober Recovery as well. There is so much wisdom and experience here. I have learned that the individual stories of alcoholics and the people who love them are more alike than they are different.
I wish you the best, but I also agree that bringing this man into your family would be something you would most certainly regret and very soon.
Member
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 8,649
Originally Posted by Oynnet
Almost as if I can support him getting help for the depression I will magically enable him to be able to do his own work on sobriety. Maybe I am seriously misguided.
.
.
I can say that the number of times depression and anxiety are intermixed when talking about addiction are incredibly frequent. You have to ask, which came first? Not that it matters at this point, he is now an addict with depression, any way you look at it.
Even if he could get help with depression, without giving up the alcohol, would that be an improvement? Maybe a tiny bit, but it won't solve the addiction. It's very difficult to treat any mental disorder when the person is using a drug in excess. How can he even be diagnosed properly.
I'm not saying at all that he doesn't care about you, this really isn't about that. His first allegiance is to the drug. Everything else is secondary, you, your life, wants and needs, his job, friends and family, probably even himself.
He may well want what you are offering, a relationship, a home, opportunities, but what he wants and what he can realistically have, may well be two different things.
From the papers of Floyd P Garrett (MD and addiction specialist)
- Addiction, Lies and Relationships
"For the addict the prospect of giving up his addictive behavior and the feelings it brings him activates profound feelings of loss, deprivation and despair. The addict is attached to his addiction in a primitive and pre-rational fashion just like a lover is attached to his beloved – or an infant is attached to its mother. Because there are no longer any clear boundaries between his love object –in this case, his addiction- and himself, each merges imperceptibly into the other so that it is impossible to tell precisely where the addict stops and his addiction begins - and vice versa.
The psychological consequence of this blending, merging and fusion between the individual and his addiction is that any threat to the continued vitality or existence of the addiction is immediately experienced as an equal and corresponding threat to the self".
https://www.bma-wellness.com/papers/...s_dilemna.html
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Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 25,373
For those of you commenting on the insurance - his employer only hires him for 36 hours so that they don't need to provide insurance. He makes too much for free insurance, but cannot afford the sliding scale due to drinking. So he's always gone without.
I've never taken a job that didn't offer insurance and I've never been without insurance. I mean, that's just being an adult. If he works for someone who purposely keeps him part-time (by four hours) so as to deny him insurance he needs a different employer, and there are plenty out there.
I still say his story smells like fish.
If he's making minimum wage, (and says he can't afford his own insurance) he needs to get a better job. There are lots of minimum wage jobs that do offer insurance. Retail, hospitals, grocery stores, hotels, restaurants...he's capable. Don't do it for him. Depression or not, there is a way out for him that doesn't include you jumping through all these crazy hoops.
That kind of victim mentality isn't going to magically disappear if he moves across the world.
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Join Date: Jul 2023
Posts: 134
Hello Oynet,
You are parenting teenagers (two?) and INSISTING that a man who is a daily drinker, unemployed and not a penny saved fly out and move in.
I am wondering why you are in such a hurry.
Could you take a breath and allow more time?
Maybe it would help to talk with a counselor.
You are parenting teenagers (two?) and INSISTING that a man who is a daily drinker, unemployed and not a penny saved fly out and move in.
I am wondering why you are in such a hurry.
Could you take a breath and allow more time?
Maybe it would help to talk with a counselor.
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: maine
Posts: 1,548
I've worked for a small employer for most of my adult life. By "small" I mean between four and six employees, and he never offered insurance. It's really rare though.
Walmart offers health insurance to part time employees.
Time for BF to get a second job. Actually, I know someone who took a job at Walmart just ot insure his family. It wasn't his dream job. It was what he needed to do.
There are alternatives to AA, if he wanted to look. He has no need to, though, because you've proven you'll put up with anything. I wonder if the only reason you've sustained this relationship for a year is because you haven't had to put up with him, drunk, day after day.
Moving him in with you, where YOU find his medical care and YOU counsel him and YOU help him find an job, and YOU provide him with food, clothing and shelter -- It sounds like you're treating him like one of your children. This doesn't sound good for him, (Is he now obligated to make the relationship work out if 'sober him' should be on a different path?) Not good for you either. If you insist on bringing him into your home and things don't work out, what are your moral obligations for getting him back to the States?
Walmart offers health insurance to part time employees.
Time for BF to get a second job. Actually, I know someone who took a job at Walmart just ot insure his family. It wasn't his dream job. It was what he needed to do.
There are alternatives to AA, if he wanted to look. He has no need to, though, because you've proven you'll put up with anything. I wonder if the only reason you've sustained this relationship for a year is because you haven't had to put up with him, drunk, day after day.
Moving him in with you, where YOU find his medical care and YOU counsel him and YOU help him find an job, and YOU provide him with food, clothing and shelter -- It sounds like you're treating him like one of your children. This doesn't sound good for him, (Is he now obligated to make the relationship work out if 'sober him' should be on a different path?) Not good for you either. If you insist on bringing him into your home and things don't work out, what are your moral obligations for getting him back to the States?
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Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Boston
Posts: 2,936
I realized I act like this because of his depression. It isn't his path to sobriety I am focusing on. Not really. It is his depression - which I know logically goes hand in hand with the drinking.
Almost as if I can support him getting help for the depression I will magically enable him to be able to do his own work on sobriety.
This is such a good insight.
It is in the same lane as "saviour" ideas we mistakenly harbor in relation to our A loved ones: I can say, do, or support in just the right way and they will stop drinking!! The traumatic history of your father dying by suicide would certainly leave you vulnerable to hoping to "save" another depressed and desperate soul.
Our impulses are so noble. And that's how we can become the unwitting (at first) enablers to addiction. But addiction upsets all the normal rules of relationships and we can, almost overnight, become like emotional hostages to the addict!! It's terrifying.
So glad you're here and that you have some history with counseling. Having an IRL objective person to help you sort out your own impulses and motivations is key to avoiding a situation you would likely regret, especially as it WILL affect your children deeply; alcoholics are like tornadoes causing wreckage to all the people in their path.
Sending warm hugs and a shot of courage.
B.
P.S. My heart goes out to you. I work as an ER nurse and have encountered many suicidal BH patients whose parents committed suicide, and the wisest thing I once overheard the Psychiatrist saying to a patient who was completely overwhelmed by guilt was, "you could no more have stopped your parent committing suicide than you could have stopped a speeding train." That kind of blew my mind, because the guilt and belief that one "could have done more" and it would have actually made the entire difference and prevented the death is so pervasive, and so punishing for the survivors, and so not true.
Almost as if I can support him getting help for the depression I will magically enable him to be able to do his own work on sobriety.
This is such a good insight.
It is in the same lane as "saviour" ideas we mistakenly harbor in relation to our A loved ones: I can say, do, or support in just the right way and they will stop drinking!! The traumatic history of your father dying by suicide would certainly leave you vulnerable to hoping to "save" another depressed and desperate soul.
Our impulses are so noble. And that's how we can become the unwitting (at first) enablers to addiction. But addiction upsets all the normal rules of relationships and we can, almost overnight, become like emotional hostages to the addict!! It's terrifying.
So glad you're here and that you have some history with counseling. Having an IRL objective person to help you sort out your own impulses and motivations is key to avoiding a situation you would likely regret, especially as it WILL affect your children deeply; alcoholics are like tornadoes causing wreckage to all the people in their path.
Sending warm hugs and a shot of courage.
B.
P.S. My heart goes out to you. I work as an ER nurse and have encountered many suicidal BH patients whose parents committed suicide, and the wisest thing I once overheard the Psychiatrist saying to a patient who was completely overwhelmed by guilt was, "you could no more have stopped your parent committing suicide than you could have stopped a speeding train." That kind of blew my mind, because the guilt and belief that one "could have done more" and it would have actually made the entire difference and prevented the death is so pervasive, and so punishing for the survivors, and so not true.
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Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2024
Posts: 55
Originally Posted by biminiblue
I call shenanigans.
I've never taken a job that didn't offer insurance and I've never been without insurance. I mean, that's just being an adult. If he works for someone who purposely keeps him part-time (by four hours) so as to deny him insurance he needs a different employer, and there are plenty out there.
I still say his story smells like fish.
I've never taken a job that didn't offer insurance and I've never been without insurance. I mean, that's just being an adult. If he works for someone who purposely keeps him part-time (by four hours) so as to deny him insurance he needs a different employer, and there are plenty out there.
I still say his story smells like fish.
However he is highly trained in his industry, and this type of practice is fairly normal in his line of work. In his industry 30 hours is actually considered 'full time' due to the repeated physical strain on his body, and the fact that he is pushing 36 hours a week due to financial strain is already taxing his body physically. (And yes, that financial strain is his own fault). This is not a story he has spun for me. I have made friends with his ex-coworkers - independent of him - and all of them work similar hours and do not have insurance through work (most have it through partners if at all). This particular situation is not due to anything he has done, just a fact of his field of work. No job in his industry will allow him to gain health insurance. That is simple fact. He is *not* at fault for that. He *is* at fault that he does not have access to insurance outside of work due to drinking.
My focus on insurance in my original posts is simply that he cannot access the therapies he needs due to the lack of insurance in the USA and I can help him access that in Australia.
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Join Date: Feb 2024
Posts: 55
Originally Posted by trailmix
Maybe you just don't fully realize what you are asking him to give up (and I say that with kindness, although it sounds harsh).
From the papers of Floyd P Garrett (MD and addiction specialist)
- Addiction, Lies and Relationships
"For the addict the prospect of giving up his addictive behavior and the feelings it brings him activates profound feelings of loss, deprivation and despair. The addict is attached to his addiction in a primitive and pre-rational fashion just like a lover is attached to his beloved – or an infant is attached to its mother. Because there are no longer any clear boundaries between his love object –in this case, his addiction- and himself, each merges imperceptibly into the other so that it is impossible to tell precisely where the addict stops and his addiction begins - and vice versa.
The psychological consequence of this blending, merging and fusion between the individual and his addiction is that any threat to the continued vitality or existence of the addiction is immediately experienced as an equal and corresponding threat to the self".
https://www.bma-wellness.com/papers/...s_dilemna.html
From the papers of Floyd P Garrett (MD and addiction specialist)
- Addiction, Lies and Relationships
"For the addict the prospect of giving up his addictive behavior and the feelings it brings him activates profound feelings of loss, deprivation and despair. The addict is attached to his addiction in a primitive and pre-rational fashion just like a lover is attached to his beloved – or an infant is attached to its mother. Because there are no longer any clear boundaries between his love object –in this case, his addiction- and himself, each merges imperceptibly into the other so that it is impossible to tell precisely where the addict stops and his addiction begins - and vice versa.
The psychological consequence of this blending, merging and fusion between the individual and his addiction is that any threat to the continued vitality or existence of the addiction is immediately experienced as an equal and corresponding threat to the self".
https://www.bma-wellness.com/papers/...s_dilemna.html
I want to say a deep thankyou for your replies trailmix. I don't think anyone here has been harsh.Just realistic.
I have a PhD, and research is kind of my thing. That quote you gave there really helps me understand more than I did before. It is certainly something that I feel the need to dive into and understand better. You are right, I don't understand what I am asking him to give up. From my perspective he's unhappy with his job, he hates his life, he has to move out of his apartment, so I didn't understand why it was so hard to just come. I clearly wasn't looking at things from the right angle.
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Join Date: Feb 2024
Posts: 55
Originally Posted by Bernadette
[color=#9b59b6] But addiction upsets all the normal rules of relationships and we can, almost overnight, become like emotional hostages to the addict!! It's terrifying.
Yeah
Pretty much where I am at right now. And why I joined this forum.
I love him. The person he is when we are together.
I hate the way he's been treating me recently.
I can't just walk away because what if he does the unthinkable because I too left.
I feel...
Trapped?
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