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Old 04-05-2019, 02:42 PM   #21 (permalink)
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AnvilheadII.

. To remove her ability to lie and deceive others. It did not work.
then yer gonna have to sew her mouth shut and cut her arms off.

she does have some rights ya know. she is an adult and allowed to lie if she wants-whether you like it or not.

im reading some extreme control issues with ya,nhwm. it reads like you dont have a marraige but youve taken a hostage.the good news is its not unique-theres 1 or 456 members here(prolly more) that have been in your shoes.
the even better news is there IS a solution but it doesnt involve controlling her actions-thats impossible and if you take a look over your past, theres probably been quite a few times when youve tried to control her and she has intentionally done something to hurt you.

again-there IS a solution for YOU.

P.S.
your 3 children are learning from everything going on. they arent good lessons for life.
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Old 04-05-2019, 03:17 PM   #22 (permalink)
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I'm sorry for what brings you here. I'm glad you're here.

Much abuse can be 'normalized', minimized and hidden from our own awareness as an unseen coping mechanism the brain can naturally do.

I highly suggest calling your local DV help hotline. Reaching out to mine gave me resources (and still does), and information about things that support healthy relationships and recovery.

Al-Anon is a fabulous resource, too, along with posting here.

One day at a time. As we make changes for ourselves, things change.
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Old 04-05-2019, 03:49 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Thank you tomsteve, your comments are very insightful.

I've never really looked at it that way. Why am I trying to literally stop her from doing things that harm us. I guess it's my natural response. I am thinking the lesson here, is that her actions are hers alone and my choice is to decide whether I wish to continue to be in a relationship where those actions occur, instead of trying to stop them from happening.
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Old 04-05-2019, 03:50 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Thank you Mango212

I may look to those other resources for help
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Old 04-05-2019, 04:03 PM   #25 (permalink)
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AnvilheadII

"1.) Why is her having emotional relationships with other men wrong?

you're kidding right? your wife is out chippying around and HAS been for years. it isn't any one man, it appears to be open season.

Why is her talking to everyone about our relationship so bad?
because there is no resolution is simply griping to anyone who listen about what a rotten piece of humanity YOU are and how lousy your relationship is. it serves no purpose but to make her feel better and justified. if it's that bad, then END IT.

Her quitting her job.
this is WAYYYYY beyond where she works. and it fixes nothing. it's just another example of the fact she has zero respect for you and will continue to do exactly as she pleases, at your expense.

she isn't hooking up with other men because of YOU, that's HER problem. HER choice. and has been from the git go it appears. she is incapable of being faithful, because she'd have to put aside her own impulses and she can't do that."


1, No. I have my belief that it's wrong. I was looking for more information as to what other believes and why. Maybe there is another perspective I dont see ift from that would be helpful. But the way you put it really sinks in.

2.) Thanks, that is helpful. It is my opinion as well that it only serves making her feel better, not us. As another poster said, sharing some of her problems with close friends is necessary and healthy. This goes way beyond that. It doesn't help either that her best friend keeps no secrets, and tells everyone in the neighborhood everything that she hears from everyone.

3.) My intent was to challenge how important I was versus her OM and her job. I did not come ahead in that challenge. The intent was not to control her decision making but to challenge it. I do understand that intent is meaningless if no one else see's it or views it that way. Perception rules.
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Old 04-05-2019, 04:41 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Thank you tomsteve, your comments are very insightful.

I've never really looked at it that way. Why am I trying to literally stop her from doing things that harm us. I guess it's my natural response. I am thinking the lesson here, is that her actions are hers alone and my choice is to decide whether I wish to continue to be in a relationship where those actions occur, instead of trying to stop them from happening.
very good to read i made sense( i dont always do that ).
you can look at what youre going to do to protect you and your children,too.

as stated, its nothing new- i might have had a wee bit of a problem with it.
the crazy thing?
didnt notice it until AFTER i got sober.
i was a wee bit of a mess.
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Old 04-05-2019, 05:04 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Questions for a few of the people responding so far.

1.) Why is her having emotional relationships with other men wrong? I feel like I am being controlling if I ask her to stop talking to that person , or to at least back it down some. I may feel that way because she has trained me to feel that way as well. I feel it's wrong as she is having a private relationship with another man, these arent relationships i'm privy to the conversations, such would be the cause with neighbors and family friends. Help me on this please.

2.) Why is her talking to everyone about our relationship so bad? She feels the need to vent. To me, I feel it is a break of our trust and intimacy. Help me on this as well please.

3.) I agree contacting her work was bad. However, nobody has yet given an opinion on how they think my spouse not quiting her job reflects upon us. Anyone have thoughts about this? I feel it is awful insult to me and us, that she refuses to find another job.

Thanks
I know you are looking for different perspectives on #1 and #2, but in reality--it doesn't matter what other people think, it only matters what YOU think. If you don't feel comfortable being in a relationship with someone who has emotional affairs--don't! If you don't feel comfortable being in a relationship with someone who talks poorly of you to other people--don't! It involves setting boundaries around what behaviors you won't put up with, and then enforcing those boundaries if people step over them.

It sounds like you are bending over backwards to try to make this relationship work. Your boundaries have been trampled on and you seem desperate to gain control over the situation--e.g. the bad decision to text her coworkers. The only person in this situation you have control over is yourself, however, so you're going to drive yourself nuts trying to get her to do what you want.

She's an adult. She can do what she wants. But you don't have to live with it ....
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Old 04-05-2019, 06:47 PM   #28 (permalink)
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nhwm- sounds like there is a lot going on, with the substance use, triangulating, violation of trust.. not sure if this will help you at all, but there are some older books on transactional analysis that I’ve found to be very helpful. The Games People Play, the Games Alcoholics Play & The Roles People Play. Written in the 60s, so the examples given are rather sexist and outdated in the books, but the basic info on dynamics between people is still relevant today, I think.

Basically what the books are saying, is as an adult, we have 3 states; parent (nurturing or controlling/ critical), adult (grown up rational person), and child (natural, little professor, or adaptive). These roles play out in interactions among people all the time, but with active addiction, you basically have someone who is in acting out/ rebellious, “child” role, which then oftentimes ends up putting the spouse in the “critical parent” role. Once you become aware of how this works, sometimes it can help you, at least in terms of your own behavior from your end.. However, if you have a person that’s so full of drama, I think the author says sometimes it’s better not to engage with them at all. A lot more to it than that, but I’ll post a link so you can read about it (some good videos on YouTube explaining it too). I know it doesn’t lessen the hurt of being cheated on, or exploited and betrayed, but maybe reading how the dynamics play out my help you a little:

Transactional Analysis
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Old 04-05-2019, 06:52 PM   #29 (permalink)
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"You say you believe in marriage for life. I respect that. Can I ask if thatís a religious belief, a belief that stems from experiencing painful divorce, or somewhere else? I think in many ways your answer to that question will help frame your understanding of a bigger question - why are you putting up with abuse for so long?

A cultural belief more than anything else. I believe one of the major influences of society is the family. I feel strongly that having a family environment is essential for kids. I also believe strongly in commitment. I believe all relationships will have really high highs and really low levels, and hopefully a lot of evenness in between. I have made a commitment to my wife and my family and I will do everything that is in my power to keep that commitment. I think people change over a life time, sometimes good, sometimes bad. People have bad days, months, years. The thought though is that those phases. I made a commitment to never give up on her. Time will only tell if I can or even should keep that commitment.

Yes. Abuse. From what you describe you are the victim of abuse from your wife. That doesnít make you weak. Abuse screws with the mind and soul.

And, abuse aside, just the affairS- multiple... well, for every one of, and letís of, her affairs that youíve discovered Iíd wager a significant chunk of change that there are more you havenít discovered.
I truly fear this as well.

What should you do, you ask. Around here one of the guidelines is generally not to give advice. Youíll be supported in this community no matter if you stay or go or work on it or not.

With that...

You mentioned counselling or divorce as an ultimatums. You mentioned she said Ok to counselling.

I worry that this ultimatum might see her and you going through the motions. She sounds pretty good at manipulating, lying and hiding the truth. In my situation, my loved one with alcoholism has been going through treatment and ďrelapsingĒ (read: never getting better) over and over: Iíve learned that alcoholics need to want treatment and anything that even seems like pressure- let alone this ultimatum type pressure, which actually IS pressure- often just leads to more lies and manipulation rather than fresh starts and healing.

But that doesnít mean *you* shouldnít get counselling. This might help you untangle the effects of abuse so you can be more centred in your decision making. If youíve never been to counselling before and want some info what itís like there are lots of us here who can share parts of our experience. Itís not a bad thing at all.
I am starting to think that me getting counseling is a potential path. I have been against it for, well, since ever.

You sound intelligent, self aware, compassionate and kind. Your kids are lucky to have that influence.

As someone else said in a different thread and now Iím plagiarizing... sorry you had to find us, happy that you are here."


Thank you for sharing this and for the advice
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Old 04-05-2019, 06:56 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Thank you, I will check that out, sounds very interesting and possible applicable
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Old 04-05-2019, 07:09 PM   #31 (permalink)
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"
1-Respect of the other. This quote tells it best.

A frog sitting on the handle of a saucepan, which is sitting on an electric hob, which is glowing red.

A frog sitting on a saucepan handle
The boiling frog is a fable describing a frog being slowly boiled alive.
The premise is that if a frog is put suddenly into boiling water, it will jump out,
but if the frog is put in tepid water which is then brought to a boil slowly, it will
not perceive the danger and will be cooked to death. The story is often used as
a metaphor for the inability or unwillingness of people to react to or be aware of
sinister threats that arise gradually rather than suddenly.
"
`````````````````````````````````````````````````` ````````````
I'm sure i've heard this before, but maybe in different form. I do like this quote though. My question to you is, as you say 'Respect of the other'. I'm not quite sure what the quote has to do with respect of the other. Are you saying that her having these relationships with other men, is just the little signs of bigger problems? And that problem being she does not respect me? If so, I get that and can see how the quote applies to that.

Thank you for your thoughts and advice, and certainly the quote!
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Old 04-05-2019, 07:12 PM   #32 (permalink)
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"

You want a partner who shares your values, and your wife has demonstrated that she does not. Since you cannot change another person, you can either find a new set of values or find a new partner.

But you do not have to do anything right this second. Do you have real life support like a counselor, priest, or trusted friend/family member you can speak to about this? Someone who knows you? I understand your desire for privacy, but you've taken a step here on an internet forum to gain more understanding. Face to face support can be even more valuable.
"


I do not have anyone I would feel comfortable talking about these issues with. I am just now starting to entertain the idea of a counselor for myself.

Thank you for your thoughts and advice
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Old 04-05-2019, 08:27 PM   #33 (permalink)
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Heya Nhwm. I'm super glad you found this place and hope you are finding the information helpful. Also super super sorry that you are in the position your are in.

When I went through my version of this story, I honestly didn't believe that it was possible to feel so much pain. It hurts in a glow in the dark psychedelic way. We all went through some period of trying to control what we absolutely couldn't control. Letting go of this beloved person hurts so much and really is the only way.

Courage to you and may battalions of angels dive bomb your family.
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Old 04-05-2019, 09:24 PM   #34 (permalink)
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I am in a horrible situation as well. I live with My Alcoholic/Drug Addict "boyfriend " of 6.5 years. As of recently our life is spinning out of control. Mostly because I FINALLY took my blindfold off and faced REALITY. Well I just recently found out he was using again , and THAT really sent a shock wave through me as I thought this whole time it was just alcohol, and that is bad enough! He has put me down to our mutual friends. He tells them I don't like him to have friends and I don't like him to have a "good time". He has made me out to be a horrible person , yet he REFUSES to leave me - to move out of my house. He has posted things about me on social media. He LIES while looking into my eyes. He tells me he's not drunk when he is falling over drunk. I called the cops on him one night when he came home drunk and I broke down and couldn't take it anymore. He ended up getting arrested. My entire life with him is a tug of war - to make him see what he's doing and take responsibility and to come up with a resolve. There has NEVER been a resolve or any form of accountability taken for the disasters we have been through because of his addictions. ALL I ever wanted was a meaningful relationship based on TRUST , LOYALTY, values morals and an honest effort to make each other the best people we can be together and apart. This is IMPOSSIBLE WITH AN ADDICT. I sit at home alone many nights wondering where he is as he ignores my text and phone calls. I go through his phone after he passes out and find out about the bar hoping and parties and drugs. I used to REACT and call him a loser and drunk and tell him I want my life back without him. I only called his boss and told him the situation when he was in jail for 4 days and I knew I needed to contact his work. His boss knew he "likes to party". When he puts me down in front our friends, I leave. When he does it in on social media I refrain from involving myself (even though all I want to do is lay it out On him and set the record straight). BUT I don't want to give anyone on FB the pleasure of watching my life fall apart. INSTEAD I'm holding myself together by attending Alanon meetings - seeing a therapist AND MAKING A PLAN TO GET OUT. LIFE IS TOO SHORT AND I WANT TO SPEND IT WITH SOMEONE WHO RESPECTS ME. You sound like all of us here, someone who CARES not just for yourself but for your wife. Unfortunately we are with people who don't care that we care. And no matter what we do to show them will only escalate the situation. Leaving them to fend for themselves I think may be the ONLY way for them to find their true selves and for us to find out true selves. The pain is overwhelming. All the best.
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Old 04-05-2019, 09:37 PM   #35 (permalink)
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I am in a horrible situation as well. I live with My Alcoholic/Drug Addict "boyfriend " of 6.5 years. As of recently our life is spinning out of control. Mostly because I FINALLY took my blindfold off and faced REALITY. Well I just recently found out he was using again , and THAT really sent a shock wave through me as I thought this whole time it was just alcohol, and that is bad enough! He has put me down to our mutual friends. He tells them I don't like him to have friends and I don't like him to have a "good time". He has made me out to be a horrible person , yet he REFUSES to leave me - to move out of my house. He has posted things about me on social media. He LIES while looking into my eyes. He tells me he's not drunk when he is falling over drunk. I called the cops on him one night when he came home drunk and I broke down and couldn't take it anymore. He ended up getting arrested. My entire life with him is a tug of war - to make him see what he's doing and take responsibility and to come up with a resolve. There has NEVER been a resolve or any form of accountability taken for the disasters we have been through because of his addictions. ALL I ever wanted was a meaningful relationship based on TRUST , LOYALTY, values morals and an honest effort to make each other the best people we can be together and apart. This is IMPOSSIBLE WITH AN ADDICT. I sit at home alone many nights wondering where he is as he ignores my text and phone calls. I go through his phone after he passes out and find out about the bar hoping and parties and drugs. I used to REACT and call him a loser and drunk and tell him I want my life back without him. I only called his boss and told him the situation when he was in jail for 4 days and I knew I needed to contact his work. His boss knew he "likes to party". When he puts me down in front our friends, I leave. When he does it in on social media I refrain from involving myself (even though all I want to do is lay it out On him and set the record straight). BUT I don't want to give anyone on FB the pleasure of watching my life fall apart. INSTEAD I'm holding myself together by attending Alanon meetings - seeing a therapist AND MAKING A PLAN TO GET OUT. LIFE IS TOO SHORT AND I WANT TO SPEND IT WITH SOMEONE WHO RESPECTS ME. You sound like all of us here, someone who CARES not just for yourself but for your wife. Unfortunately we are with people who don't care that we care. And no matter what we do to show them will only escalate the situation. Leaving them to fend for themselves I think may be the ONLY way for them to find their true selves and for us to find out true selves. The pain is overwhelming. All the best.
Ugh Amusic, that is a miserable and classic story of life with an addict. So glad to hear that you are in Alanon and coming up with a plan to separate yourself from him. He needs to do what he is doing. You get to choose what you are going to do given the fact that he doesn't want to change.

Keep us posted about how it goes and what "next right step" you are taking to get your life back.
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Old 04-05-2019, 10:55 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Hi nhwm and welcome.

As I am reading your posts I do believe there is something missing here.

You mentioned:

- private person who values the concept of my partner and I are always us against the world
- things stay private, stay intimate, and we work through our life challenges and relationship challenges together.
- Trust is #1 for me.
- I have a person who knows me, loves me for better or worse, would do anything for me, and in turn I would do anything for them.
- marriage for life.

You also say:

"These things are a huge part of what make our relationship so special and meaningful to me".

Yet no where in anything you have posted do you describe your wife as ascribing to any of the relationship values you have, not one.

So my question for you I guess is why do you think you can change her in to someone she is not and from your description, never has been?
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Old 04-06-2019, 06:15 AM   #37 (permalink)
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Amusic

Thank you for sharing all of this. I truly am saddened and at the same time can absolutely connect.

I too have just last night decided to get counseling for myself, which is a massively huge decision for me.

Wishing you nothing but the best
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Old 04-06-2019, 06:26 AM   #38 (permalink)
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We have been together for 13 years. We have had wonderful days, months, years. It's those times that keep my hope alive. I do think I have also had a huge part to play, which is something I'm just now starting to realize.

I thank tomsteve's post for that.

I have not been honest with my wife, and I have been trying to control situations that I feel are harmful to me and her. Instead of just expressing how I feel and letting my wife really understand me. That dishonesty of being controlling instead of open makes it unfair to think my wife wouldn't have ultimately made choices differently. I will be going to counseling to try and understand this and myself better.

My wife and I will also be going to counseling together, and she is going to her own counseling as well.

At this point, I am committing to the counseling and taking one day at a time to see where it goes. To work on myself, to not try and persuade my wife into any decisions, and just let the chips fall where they fall and then see if that is a place I am happy in.

I'm scared shitless
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Old 04-06-2019, 07:01 AM   #39 (permalink)
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Don't get between her and her pain. Let her fall however low she needs to fall so she can get back up on her own.

I just went through the same thing with my son. He just got out of treatment a week and-a-half ago. The first thing he said was, Mom, thank you for getting out of my way, I had to do this on my own.
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Old 04-06-2019, 07:12 AM   #40 (permalink)
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My wife and I will also be going to counseling together, and she is going to her own counseling as well.
As you remain focused on your own inner work, keep in mind that therapy is of limited value when someone is an active alcoholic. I encourage you to pursue a wellness path for your own wellness and growth, allowing your wife to make her own choices. If her choices include drinking alcoholicly, her therapy and your couples therapy isn't going to have much of a foothold. All of us who dearly love an alcoholic have wonderful memories of the beloved person we know, but all of us have to learn the hard way how to let our loved one life her own life. Knowing how to do this is part of every healthy relationship, so here's a golden opportunity for you to make a lot of your relationships better. A better life for you doesn't necessarily entail her growth and it also doesn't necessarily entail kicking her to the curb. Pursuing your own independent wellness path is about doing your own work for yourself - just as an alcoholic must choose recovery for herself and not for others. Therapy is for you.
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