Alcoholic Wife Claims Abuse - Falsely
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Bob, others have already made similar points, but just to clarify this rules v. boundaries thing: "she can't say mean things about me in front of my son" is a rule. It seeks to control her. "I will not argue with her in front of my son. If she tries to argue, I will calmly disengage and walk away." is a boundary. It seeks to control what you are willing to do.
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Thanks everyone
Yes I know I engaged and shouldn't have. We all have our weaknesses and off times and this was one for me -- no I'm not proud really. Silly to have said that. I guess I meant I was glad that even tho I bought in this time I did not join in the mudslinging. Sometimes we learn to be satisfied with the crumbs, the silver linings if we can find one...
The unicorn line totally sounds like me. Thx for that line... I love it, will remember it, and will USE it. Oh and yes... Although you are only getting highlights of my life, most days are relatively normal. Then sh-- like this pops up outta nowhere. I keep getting pulled into a false sense of things being "okay for now" which is always a welcome relief. Clearly I need to remain ever vigilant and when not helping myself or son be working on this mess
The unicorn line totally sounds like me. Thx for that line... I love it, will remember it, and will USE it. Oh and yes... Although you are only getting highlights of my life, most days are relatively normal. Then sh-- like this pops up outta nowhere. I keep getting pulled into a false sense of things being "okay for now" which is always a welcome relief. Clearly I need to remain ever vigilant and when not helping myself or son be working on this mess
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Bob.....about the engaging.....don't worry---it takes a lot of practice. It gets easier with the practice, over time.....
Nobody gets this perfect the first time out of the stall.......f
Do you have any thoughts about the horsemen??
dandylion
Nobody gets this perfect the first time out of the stall.......f
Do you have any thoughts about the horsemen??
dandylion
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Originally Posted by TheBob1 
Yes I know I engaged and shouldn't have. We all have our weaknesses and off times and this was one for me -- no I'm not proud really. Silly to have said that. I guess I meant I was glad that even tho I bought in this time I did not join in the mudslinging. Sometimes we learn to be satisfied with the crumbs, the silver linings if we can find one...
The unicorn line totally sounds like me. Thx for that line... I love it, will remember it, and will USE it. Oh and yes... Although you are only getting highlights of my life, most days are relatively normal. Then sh-- like this pops up outta nowhere. I keep getting pulled into a false sense of things being "okay for now" which is always a welcome relief. Clearly I need to remain ever vigilant and when not helping myself or son be working on this mess
The unicorn line totally sounds like me. Thx for that line... I love it, will remember it, and will USE it. Oh and yes... Although you are only getting highlights of my life, most days are relatively normal. Then sh-- like this pops up outta nowhere. I keep getting pulled into a false sense of things being "okay for now" which is always a welcome relief. Clearly I need to remain ever vigilant and when not helping myself or son be working on this mess
In my experience it was only after I seriously started working on myself, by going to Alanon, that the state of hyper-vigilence I had been living in ended.
And I 100% disagree that we need to learn be satisfied with "crumbs", though I understand how one could see it that way. I see it as learning to accept life on life's terms. Letting go of the chess game that my life had turned into, and accepting that the war I was in against my husbands addiction was never going to be a fair fight. I chose to fight the good fight on a battlefield of my own choosing. I decided to work on myself, and left my husbands addiction to him. It was the right choice, not crumbs.
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I have to second what Dandylion said about "it will get easier."
A few tools that helped me in the beginning:
1 - read the QUACKERS thread if you haven't already. Every time my ABF tried to fire up the engine on the crazy train, I literally pictured him as a duck Quacking at me. No point in arguing that, huh?!
2 - You will read "drop the rope" over and over in here. Arguments, especially those insane cyclical ones that go nowhere, are a tug of war between 2 people. Both people engaged in a push pull, both wanting to "win" by having the other see clearly (or in a lot of instances, just SEE rationally
) Drop the rope. There can be no tug of war / insane dance / pointless cyclical argument between 2 people if one of them 'drops the rope' and walks away.
For a while, I would literally get up in the middle of it and walk out and go drive for 20 minutes (long enough to see my part of things, and long enough to let my fury cool down.) I know with a child in the house it's not so easy to take off.
Good luck - you'll get it with some practice, and these tools helped me.
Oh yeah - the "mmm-hmm, ok, and interesting" responses as you walk away help put a stop to them too. Really, what is she fighting for anymore if YOU give HER a crumb
A few tools that helped me in the beginning:
1 - read the QUACKERS thread if you haven't already. Every time my ABF tried to fire up the engine on the crazy train, I literally pictured him as a duck Quacking at me. No point in arguing that, huh?!
2 - You will read "drop the rope" over and over in here. Arguments, especially those insane cyclical ones that go nowhere, are a tug of war between 2 people. Both people engaged in a push pull, both wanting to "win" by having the other see clearly (or in a lot of instances, just SEE rationally
) Drop the rope. There can be no tug of war / insane dance / pointless cyclical argument between 2 people if one of them 'drops the rope' and walks away.For a while, I would literally get up in the middle of it and walk out and go drive for 20 minutes (long enough to see my part of things, and long enough to let my fury cool down.) I know with a child in the house it's not so easy to take off.
Good luck - you'll get it with some practice, and these tools helped me.
Oh yeah - the "mmm-hmm, ok, and interesting" responses as you walk away help put a stop to them too. Really, what is she fighting for anymore if YOU give HER a crumb
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Yeah, Bob.....firebolt has some good ideas.
And, do read QUACKERS. For on thing, you will laugh your ring off!!......I'll give you 10$ if you will read quackers. (I h ope that you are doing the homework that we give you.....LOL!!!).
To recap, a little....these "techniques" of not engaging are for the PRIME PURPOSE of saving YOU from the stress of stupid, unnecessary, manipulative or destructive arguments over the stupid stuff that comes from the alcoholic's mouth.
It is to give you a little space and time from the craziness to....perhaps to sort out your OWN thoughts and feelings. To keep your fat out of the fire just a l ittle bit.....
A bit of warning....in the beginning...sometimes, they get "worse" before they get better. (they may work harder to get you to react--to take the bait).
Therefore, it is important for you to be very consistent....
Detaching/not responding is just one tool, remember. It is never meant to be the whole toolbox.
dandylion
And, do read QUACKERS. For on thing, you will laugh your ring off!!......I'll give you 10$ if you will read quackers. (I h ope that you are doing the homework that we give you.....LOL!!!).
To recap, a little....these "techniques" of not engaging are for the PRIME PURPOSE of saving YOU from the stress of stupid, unnecessary, manipulative or destructive arguments over the stupid stuff that comes from the alcoholic's mouth.
It is to give you a little space and time from the craziness to....perhaps to sort out your OWN thoughts and feelings. To keep your fat out of the fire just a l ittle bit.....
A bit of warning....in the beginning...sometimes, they get "worse" before they get better. (they may work harder to get you to react--to take the bait).
Therefore, it is important for you to be very consistent....
Detaching/not responding is just one tool, remember. It is never meant to be the whole toolbox.
dandylion
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Learning how to drop the rope & stop engaging seemed impossible to me at first. When I saw my reactions as a choice, it was a game changer. There can't BE an argument/fight when you refuse to interact or decide you no longer want a front row seat for the show.
Like a spoiled child with no audience to witness his tantrum, my RAH went through what I referred to as Tazmanian Devil Syndrome. He'd just spin & spin & spew & spew anything he could to try to get me to re-engage. I fell for that a lot at first, I could not bring myself to walk away when I was RIGHT. I needed to realize that I couldn't battle crazy without reducing myself to crazy as well..... and that Crazy obviously wasn't capable of comprehending the "right" & "wrong" of the situation anyway. How far was I willing to erode my own mental state in the face of madness?
If I was waiting for him to have a big epiphany during these arguments & suddenly throw up his hands, announce he'd seen the light & accept responsibility..... I was going to be waiting forever. Even if he did see things clearly, he would never admit that to me. NEVER. In fact, the more wrong he was, the deeper he dug in his heels to defend himself.
And when he was finally sober he said it almost exactly that way to me during one of our discussions. He often knew precisely how wrong he was but would not even consider owning it; his Ego would simply not allow him to & he could not get around that because by then, Ego was only concerned with protecting his addiction, nothing else. Nothing.
Like a spoiled child with no audience to witness his tantrum, my RAH went through what I referred to as Tazmanian Devil Syndrome. He'd just spin & spin & spew & spew anything he could to try to get me to re-engage. I fell for that a lot at first, I could not bring myself to walk away when I was RIGHT. I needed to realize that I couldn't battle crazy without reducing myself to crazy as well..... and that Crazy obviously wasn't capable of comprehending the "right" & "wrong" of the situation anyway. How far was I willing to erode my own mental state in the face of madness?
If I was waiting for him to have a big epiphany during these arguments & suddenly throw up his hands, announce he'd seen the light & accept responsibility..... I was going to be waiting forever. Even if he did see things clearly, he would never admit that to me. NEVER. In fact, the more wrong he was, the deeper he dug in his heels to defend himself.
And when he was finally sober he said it almost exactly that way to me during one of our discussions. He often knew precisely how wrong he was but would not even consider owning it; his Ego would simply not allow him to & he could not get around that because by then, Ego was only concerned with protecting his addiction, nothing else. Nothing.
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Originally Posted by FireSprite
I needed to realize that I couldn't battle crazy without reducing myself to crazy as well..... and that Crazy obviously wasn't capable of comprehending the "right" & "wrong" of the situation anyway. How far was I willing to erode my own mental state in the face of madness?
This has been very true in my relationship as well. The last time AH flipped out on me, I just stared at his forehead and imagined "crazy" flashing there. You do not need to attend every fight you are invited to, and you do not need a crazy person's affirmation that you are right. Even though my AH will still follow me around the house when I refuse to engage, my serenity is much better protected. The topic of fighting being "optional" has come up with respect to our son, as well. AH believes very strongly that our son (who just turned five, for Pete's sake) must immediately address every issue presented to him, even if he is upset/in tantrum mode. I once said to him that nobody, especially a child with minimal coping skills, has to attend every fight they are invited to. He looked straight into my eyes, stone cold sober, and said "That is the stupidest thing I have ever heard." Regardless of his alcoholism, he is wired for confrontation.
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Originally Posted by jjj111
Bob, others have already made similar points, but just to clarify this rules v. boundaries thing: "she can't say mean things about me in front of my son" is a rule. It seeks to control her. "I will not argue with her in front of my son. If she tries to argue, I will calmly disengage and walk away." is a boundary. It seeks to control what you are willing to do.
Yes, I have disengaged and I have said "fine, maybe you are right..." to de-escalte things, but where is the boundary in that? Where is the line drawn? "If you attack me one more time, I swear I will turn and walk away!" - - - - Just doesn't have a motivating ring to it.
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Originally Posted by dandylion
Bob.....about the engaging.....don't worry---it takes a lot of practice. It gets easier with the practice, over time.....
Nobody gets this perfect the first time out of the stall.......f
Do you have any thoughts about the horsemen??
dandylion
Nobody gets this perfect the first time out of the stall.......f
Do you have any thoughts about the horsemen??
dandylion
As for the horsemen, are you kidding?! We have a stable and quarters for them - they LIVE here, like buzzards on the roadside waiting for something to die.
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Originally Posted by TheBob1
Hmmm, this sounds like turning one's back on injustice, rather than fighting it. I back down and "concede power" to the offending party? This sounds illogical, so apparently I'm still not gettin' it.
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Originally Posted by TheBob1
Hmmm, this sounds like turning one's back on injustice, rather than fighting it. I back down and "concede power" to the offending party? This sounds illogical, so apparently I'm still not gettin' it.
Yes, I have disengaged and I have said "fine, maybe you are right..." to de-escalte things, but where is the boundary in that? Where is the line drawn? "If you attack me one more time, I swear I will turn and walk away!" - - - - Just doesn't have a motivating ring to it.
Yes, I have disengaged and I have said "fine, maybe you are right..." to de-escalte things, but where is the boundary in that? Where is the line drawn? "If you attack me one more time, I swear I will turn and walk away!" - - - - Just doesn't have a motivating ring to it.
So then you're in a situation where you're faced with a person who, for example, wants to drink, or wants to argue. It's not about "justice", it's about your choices being limited---you can engage in the argument, which you will later regret because it only inflames the situation and has no effect on changing your wife's behavior, or you can walk away. If you choose to stay with her and she's looking to argue with you, those are your choices. Anything else is on her (stopping drinking) or on you (get to Al-Anon, learn coping strategies, patience, serenity, protect your son from the damage he's receiving in the home, etc.).
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I dunno I guess one way of looking at it is what do you think she gets out of it going off on you like that? Are you giving her her "supply"? That's a term used with NPDs which it sounds like she is, too. And adding alcohol to an NPD is like adding gasoline to fire - YOU. WILL. NOT. "WIN". E V E R. The best thing you can do is put her on ignore TOTALLY. And BAM her supply is cut off. I agree with others to move into the spare bedroom. Do not participate in conversations with her unless they have to do with the care of your son. Stay in separate rooms while lounging, etc. And try to live your lives separately but peacefully. If you choose to stay under the same roof, which sounds like the plan for now, I really don't see any other way to do it and not go insane. Who knows, maybe she will get sick of it and may pick up those pamphlets and make some calls? But she might also be content with it to have you off her back and let her continue to drink in peace. Would you be able to do that?
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Bob, I think everyone here has given you some great pointers...sounds like you are trying to make it work...but (yep, there it is) as I am reading my heart just goes out to you...sounds like you are walking on egg shells all the time...that is a difficult way to live..and it's not just you, but your son...I know what it is like when you want it to get better...you want it to work...you want to keep the family "together" but when I finally parted ways with my BPD and A ex father of my kids I was relieved...my home for my kids was so much more at peace...I had a lot on my plate..my kids were 2 & 3 at the time 3 & 4...but I got through it...
hugs to you...take care of you first...
hugs to you...take care of you first...
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"concede power"
What power? The power to show her you are right?
Do you want to be right or do you want to be peaceful and happy?
You can keep on engaging - we ALL know from first hand experience how that goes. We have the sleepless nights, gray hair, high blood pressure, and tension headaches to prove it.
There is no power to be had in trying to reason with the unreasonable, trying to defend yourself against exaggerations, lies and untruths, or trying to find solution and compromise with someone whose underlying motive is SOLELY protecting their right to drink. There is no winning and no upper hand outside of making a happy life for ourselves in this kind of difficult situation.
What power? The power to show her you are right?
Do you want to be right or do you want to be peaceful and happy?
You can keep on engaging - we ALL know from first hand experience how that goes. We have the sleepless nights, gray hair, high blood pressure, and tension headaches to prove it.
There is no power to be had in trying to reason with the unreasonable, trying to defend yourself against exaggerations, lies and untruths, or trying to find solution and compromise with someone whose underlying motive is SOLELY protecting their right to drink. There is no winning and no upper hand outside of making a happy life for ourselves in this kind of difficult situation.
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Wowsa-wow-wow-WOW!
The last several posts/discussion of "crazy", invitations to fights (great analogy!), and the point of arguing as if the foe is going to finally see the light are just SOOO spot-on! I know we are all human and have similar problems, but these remarks and insights are so incredibly nail-on-the-head for me right now its amazing. Thanks folks - this has been inspirational for me in another time of perceived desperation.
I'm still hoping to find some way to honor my marriage vows and save my "family" while also being INTOLERANT (there, I said it!) of the quakadoodle-doo and offensive and stupid actions (please see my recent post regarding boundaries/rules - sorry 'jjj' if I was too raw).
If I may confuse things more un my ADHD rambles: I think that MY WIFE WAS NOT INTOXICATED when this last blowup occurred. I think that b/c we are on this site, we are all hammers so everything looks like a nail to us, i.e. - we jump to the conclusion that all issues are substance related. At the risk of offending an overwhelmingly female "audience" (tho none is intended), this seemed more like a hormonal issue, be it monthly (she has never really had PMS issues I have seen) or a life-changer (menopause). Dear God!! Add alcohol to the hormonal imbalances and I may be 100% S.O.L. no matter what!?!?!?!
Well, bad behavior is still unacceptable, so I am still struggling mightily with how to draw a line - a border, rule, whatever - that simply can't be crossed without far more serious consequences. I'll admit this last episode was mild and I took the bait and ran with it once we were behind closed doors.
I insisted she admitted wrongdoing and even that she confess to our son at some point - which she did (but not very well). Hold the criticism pls, I know the error of my ways - - I have been quite raw after heat exhaustion and "failing" to complete the full scuba course (although I did just learn I have am certified regardless - I guess I was a good student or they trust I will complete the two open water dives I had to miss).
I found an emoticon that says it all as regards my current dilemma of how to create AND MOST IMPORTANTLY ENFORCE a boundary -- one that that does not look like a concession or walking away from a problem:
The last several posts/discussion of "crazy", invitations to fights (great analogy!), and the point of arguing as if the foe is going to finally see the light are just SOOO spot-on! I know we are all human and have similar problems, but these remarks and insights are so incredibly nail-on-the-head for me right now its amazing. Thanks folks - this has been inspirational for me in another time of perceived desperation.
I'm still hoping to find some way to honor my marriage vows and save my "family" while also being INTOLERANT (there, I said it!) of the quakadoodle-doo and offensive and stupid actions (please see my recent post regarding boundaries/rules - sorry 'jjj' if I was too raw).
If I may confuse things more un my ADHD rambles: I think that MY WIFE WAS NOT INTOXICATED when this last blowup occurred. I think that b/c we are on this site, we are all hammers so everything looks like a nail to us, i.e. - we jump to the conclusion that all issues are substance related. At the risk of offending an overwhelmingly female "audience" (tho none is intended), this seemed more like a hormonal issue, be it monthly (she has never really had PMS issues I have seen) or a life-changer (menopause). Dear God!! Add alcohol to the hormonal imbalances and I may be 100% S.O.L. no matter what!?!?!?!
Well, bad behavior is still unacceptable, so I am still struggling mightily with how to draw a line - a border, rule, whatever - that simply can't be crossed without far more serious consequences. I'll admit this last episode was mild and I took the bait and ran with it once we were behind closed doors.
I insisted she admitted wrongdoing and even that she confess to our son at some point - which she did (but not very well). Hold the criticism pls, I know the error of my ways - - I have been quite raw after heat exhaustion and "failing" to complete the full scuba course (although I did just learn I have am certified regardless - I guess I was a good student or they trust I will complete the two open water dives I had to miss).
I found an emoticon that says it all as regards my current dilemma of how to create AND MOST IMPORTANTLY ENFORCE a boundary -- one that that does not look like a concession or walking away from a problem:
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Originally Posted by SparkleKitty
To engage at all is to concede power, to give her words credit they do not deserve. This is not an "injustice" that you can fight because it isn't coming from a place of truth. By engaging with it, you validate that it is worth defending against, and it isn't.
One aspect still feels like a sticking point, although it probably doesn't matter in the overall scheme of things...
Does ANY injustice ever come from a place of truth?
I think I am looking for something pragmatic, as in how I can PREVENT these outbursts short of leaving or kicking her out (son cannot un-hear the poop, once it has been "put out there"). Short of controlling her every thought and movement, I suppose I can only do my best to stop the outbursts once they have started -- as recommended here and in so many other ways and times in this thread.
Feeling relief and comfort in the wonderful advice and warmth I get here, but still banging head on table...
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