Alcoholic Wife Claims Abuse - Falsely
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Ha ha -- as soon as I posted I asked myself the same question, does any injustice ever come from a place of truth.
No answer but ultimately it does not matter. Wherever it comes from, you only lend credence to her words when you defend yourself against them.
You cannot prevent outbursts.
You cannot control her in any way. She is a human adult with free will. You can tie yourself in knots trying to keep words from coming out of her mouth or you can earn yourself a call to the police if you try to physically prevent her from speaking.
The best way to stop an outburst once it's started is to refuse to add fuel to the fire. Walk away. I have a boundary that if someone doesn't speak to me respectfully, I will not engage and I will get away from them as quickly and safely as I can. There are no qualifiers on that if that person is accusing me of something, lying about me, or otherwise making it personal. I do not defend against someone who is more interested in shouting that resolving whatever conflict is between us.
This stuff is simple but never easy.
No answer but ultimately it does not matter. Wherever it comes from, you only lend credence to her words when you defend yourself against them.
You cannot prevent outbursts.
You cannot control her in any way. She is a human adult with free will. You can tie yourself in knots trying to keep words from coming out of her mouth or you can earn yourself a call to the police if you try to physically prevent her from speaking.
The best way to stop an outburst once it's started is to refuse to add fuel to the fire. Walk away. I have a boundary that if someone doesn't speak to me respectfully, I will not engage and I will get away from them as quickly and safely as I can. There are no qualifiers on that if that person is accusing me of something, lying about me, or otherwise making it personal. I do not defend against someone who is more interested in shouting that resolving whatever conflict is between us.
This stuff is simple but never easy.
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Join Date: Nov 2012
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Bob, I found that once I stopped engaging the outbursts got shorter. For some people, the outbursts minimize because you aren't "feeding the beast". In my case he became infuriated and left. I think it's because he knew he was being the crazy one once I stopped playing the game...and it made him angrier.
No telling how it will turn out, but just like a three-year old in the grocery store---the parent who lets them scream on the floor while calmly continuing to shop has a much better future 6-year old on their hands than the parent who reacts and engages.
No telling how it will turn out, but just like a three-year old in the grocery store---the parent who lets them scream on the floor while calmly continuing to shop has a much better future 6-year old on their hands than the parent who reacts and engages.
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Bob, just another thought: maybe it would connect you to your own power in the situation if you tell her your boundary? As in, tell her that you are not willing to fight with her in front of your son/after she has been drinking/ever--whatever your boundary is. And that if she tries to engage you in a fight, you will walk away. And then stick with it. Then at least it's clear that you're setting a boundary and not quietly agreeing with/surrendering to what she says. You can even tell your son if you want, I don't want to fight with your mother any more and I am going to be walking away in the future. It might surprise you how powerful you feel when you draw a line around her crazy and stick with it!
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Join Date: Jan 2011
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Originally Posted by TheBob1 
Hmmm, this sounds like turning one's back on injustice, rather than fighting it. I back down and "concede power" to the offending party? This sounds illogical, so apparently I'm still not gettin' it.
Yes, I have disengaged and I have said "fine, maybe you are right..." to de-escalte things, but where is the boundary in that? Where is the line drawn? "If you attack me one more time, I swear I will turn and walk away!" - - - - Just doesn't have a motivating ring to it.
Yes, I have disengaged and I have said "fine, maybe you are right..." to de-escalte things, but where is the boundary in that? Where is the line drawn? "If you attack me one more time, I swear I will turn and walk away!" - - - - Just doesn't have a motivating ring to it.
My alcoholic father used to go on racist/sexist rants and try to engage all of us in them. They were horribly (and sometimes personally) offensive to me. I'd do research to counter his claims. I engaged, often leaving the dinner table in tears as he denigrated me. This was exactly what he wanted.
When I got older, I learned to defuse/refuse to engage in his arguments. One of his friends watched me do this at a luncheon with other people and was very admiring. I just said, "thats very interesting, but we're not going to discuss this now," and repeated it calmly every time he tried to restart the argument. The way you might with a 4 year old who is having a tantrum. I was totally calm. It was amazing the difference when I didn't try to counter with any arguments. I was like teflon!
Someone also once advised me to think of him as a mentally ill homeless person on the street. Would you try to counter their reasoning if they yelled at you that the world was coming to an end and you were a sinner? Nope, you'd disengage and get out of there.
I assure you, with practice this works wonders.
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Originally Posted by firebolt
"concede power"
What power? The power to show her you are right?
Do you want to be right or do you want to be peaceful and happy?
You can keep on engaging - we ALL know from first hand experience how that goes. We have the sleepless nights, gray hair, high blood pressure, and tension headaches to prove it.
There is no power to be had in trying to reason with the unreasonable, trying to defend yourself against exaggerations, lies and untruths, or trying to find solution and compromise with someone whose underlying motive is SOLELY protecting their right to drink. There is no winning and no upper hand outside of making a happy life for ourselves in this kind of difficult situation.
What power? The power to show her you are right?
Do you want to be right or do you want to be peaceful and happy?
You can keep on engaging - we ALL know from first hand experience how that goes. We have the sleepless nights, gray hair, high blood pressure, and tension headaches to prove it.
There is no power to be had in trying to reason with the unreasonable, trying to defend yourself against exaggerations, lies and untruths, or trying to find solution and compromise with someone whose underlying motive is SOLELY protecting their right to drink. There is no winning and no upper hand outside of making a happy life for ourselves in this kind of difficult situation.
No no, not the power to argue of prove a point - not that at all. I am past the point of needing to "being right" - - well, mostly; I did get caught up in making her admit her blatant lie and exaggeration in front of our son yesterday in a moment of weakness and frustration (a culmination of life issues and tiredness)).
Did I say "concede power"? Context, I believe, is that my issue is conceding my right to defend myself, my right to happiness, and my right to freedom from verbal assault in my own home, my castle, my refuge. The "power" to stop someone from sabotaging an otherwise relatively normal and pretty fine life - and people - and family.
And I am worried this isn't ALL about drinking... However, I suppose the fight you aptly described (for the right to drink) goes on regardless of "intoxication status", doesn't it?
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Originally Posted by TheBob1
Context, I believe, is that my issue is conceding my right to defend myself, my right to happiness, and my right to freedom from verbal assault in my own home, my castle, my refuge. The "power" to stop someone from sabotaging an otherwise relatively normal and pretty fine life - and people - and family.
I guess my point is that the things you are doing are not changing her, they are just keeping you both stuck in a cycle of believing that If The Other Person Changes, Everything Will Be Fine. I see a guy -- understandably so -- still looking for a way to have his cake and eat it too -- but who is counting on someone else to both give him his cake and to let him eat it.
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Did I say "concede power"? Context, I believe, is that my issue is conceding my right to defend myself, my right to happiness, and my right to freedom from verbal assault in my own home, my castle, my refuge. The "power" to stop someone from sabotaging an otherwise relatively normal and pretty fine life - and people - and family.
And I am worried this isn't ALL about drinking... However, I suppose the fight you aptly described (for the right to drink) goes on regardless of "intoxication status", doesn't it?
And I am worried this isn't ALL about drinking... However, I suppose the fight you aptly described (for the right to drink) goes on regardless of "intoxication status", doesn't it?
my right to happiness, and my right to freedom from verbal assault in my own home, my castle, my refuge. .
The "power" to stop someone from sabotaging an otherwise relatively normal and pretty fine life - and people - and family
And I am worried this isn't ALL about drinking... However, I suppose the fight you aptly described (for the right to drink) goes on regardless of "intoxication status", doesn't it?
Here - in our big group hug called Sober Recovery, we ALL have experienced your very situation, and the common denominator is alcoholism. The symptoms are pretty textbook, the relationship and family issues are pretty textbook, and codependency is pretty textbook as well. Different people find different solutions for all that, and we just want to push on you what has worked and what is working for all of us. We ALL have to learn this the hard way. We have ALL been told by others here that we are going about dealing the wrong way - albeit the best way we can muster at the time.
Not that this big ole overwhelming mess is ALWAYS life or relationship ending...IT'S NOT! We all just realize that what we have been doing isn't working, so we come here for answers. Most of the time, it leads to really, really positive change within ourselves. With any luck, it happens that way for the alcoholic too.
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Originally Posted by jjj111
Bob, just another thought: maybe it would connect you to your own power in the situation if you tell her your boundary? As in, tell her that you are not willing to fight with her in front of your son/after she has been drinking/ever--whatever your boundary is. And that if she tries to engage you in a fight, you will walk away. And then stick with it. Then at least it's clear that you're setting a boundary and not quietly agreeing with/surrendering to what she says. You can even tell your son if you want, I don't want to fight with your mother any more and I am going to be walking away in the future. It might surprise you how powerful you feel when you draw a line around her crazy and stick with it!
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Originally Posted by SparkleKitty
As long as you hand over the power of peace in your home to other people, you risk not getting it. You don't have the power to stop someone from sabotaging your life if they are bound and determined to do so, and are such a part of your life that they can manage it.
I guess my point is that the things you are doing are not changing her, they are just keeping you both stuck in a cycle of believing that If The Other Person Changes, Everything Will Be Fine. I see a guy -- understandably so -- still looking for a way to have his cake and eat it too -- but who is counting on someone else to both give him his cake and to let him eat it.
I guess my point is that the things you are doing are not changing her, they are just keeping you both stuck in a cycle of believing that If The Other Person Changes, Everything Will Be Fine. I see a guy -- understandably so -- still looking for a way to have his cake and eat it too -- but who is counting on someone else to both give him his cake and to let him eat it.
And about the cake - - - In business and my personal life in general, I have always looked for every situation to be a win-win; One in which all parties have the best possible outcome, or if operating alone, one in which I have eliminated all downsides - or all that matter in my mind's eye.
This, my friends, is quite a different animal.
I need to say right now...
I feel like I have hit the jackpot with wisdom and advice today and yesterday (no offense to those who have worked to make these points in different ways over the last few weeks). Maybe its because I am slowly coming along on the learning curve and eyes are slowly opening to a world that is completely new to me. Bless you all
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Apparent theme of the day:
"You only lend credence to someone's words when you defend yourself against them".
So simple and so true, but worst of all, hits home with someone who has fallen for the tactic of being put on the defensive (blame shifting) for most of his life.
G'night y'all
"You only lend credence to someone's words when you defend yourself against them".
So simple and so true, but worst of all, hits home with someone who has fallen for the tactic of being put on the defensive (blame shifting) for most of his life.
G'night y'all
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Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,452
I think there is a major shift going on in your thinking, for the better. Between the wisdom that has been shared on this thread, and your thoughtful experimenting with different approaches to your wife's outrages, it sounds as if you are coming to a better understanding of how to deal with a difficult life situation.
There is a thing about "power" that I want to mention. Disruptive people, especially those who are highly dysfunctional and very close to us, have a huge impact on our lives. From my own experience, I became deeply enmeshed in their drama, their provocations, their way of living. I think alcoholics often need and create chaos in their lives; it makes them feel alive. It connects them to others vividly, although in a terribly dysfunctional way. It substitutes for the peaceful and loving interactions with people that they, because of their limitations, cannot create or sustain.
The chaos they create lets them project their issues out onto a kind of amorphous stage that sucks their family members in as reluctant players. It masks the problems that they should own and resolve for themselves by confusing who is responsible for what. That they are avoiding dealing with their own dysfunctional issues becomes less and less obvious to anyone because of the generalized chaotic living situation. They get to blame shift and project and stir up false conflicts and get everybody else to descend to their own level in terms of their behavior. Then they get to say "see, you are the problem here; look at you yell, look at all your bad behavior".
When we let this happen, when we react strongly, emotionally, and negatively to what they do, we have entered their world on their terms. We have ceded all our power to create the peaceful, loving environment we want. We have let them define the parameters of our relationships, of our emotional living space around their dysfunction.
This especially happens when the alcoholic or dysfunctional person creates triangles among three people. Then they have all the power to make edgy alliances with one so that it appears to be two against one, with one outlier "bad guy". Our capacity to build and sustain peaceful fulfilling relationships with anyone who is participating in this charade becomes damaged.
The tornado of the alcoholic has descended and the walls of our stability and the roof of peaceful interaction with our loved ones are blown away and replaced by gales of unbridled emotion and conflict.
Some people confront the gale and tell it to stop blowing, which is impossible and futile and gets them as out of control as the gale-maker. Other people run for cover and try to hide in the basement and wait it out, all the while, losing their right and ability to create their own positive life and growth.
To me, the real power we hold is to walk away from all of this. We can say "This is not how I want to live; this is not how I want to relate to people; I do not choose this chaos and I will not participate in it"
We get to reclaim our right to decide for ourselves how we want to live, how we want to express ourselves, how we want to feel in relationship with others.
This, to me, is what "power" means. We can determine who we are and who we want to be and how we want to live for ourselves. We have the freedom to set boundaries against the actions of others which are destructive to the life situation that we choose.
We are no longer enmeshed in the tornado of dysfunction which the alcoholic in our lives demands. They often, without realizing it, choose chaos as the bedrock of their existence, because it allows them the freedom that their addiction requires. Chaos and the inability to sort out what is healthy and what is not is a plus for addiction. They need it desparately to fool themselves and others about the cost of their addiction on their lives and the lives of their loved ones.
We become free when we can say to our loved one "I love you very much AND I cannot choose to live in the chaos and disruption you are creating and remain whole myself."
What we choose to do then is a function of who we are defining ourselves to be and to become. We move from being a reactive and dysfunctional player in another person's drama to working to create the life we want for ourselves and our children.
Take what you want, leave the rest, and my heartfelt best wishes for you and your son.
ShootingStar1
There is a thing about "power" that I want to mention. Disruptive people, especially those who are highly dysfunctional and very close to us, have a huge impact on our lives. From my own experience, I became deeply enmeshed in their drama, their provocations, their way of living. I think alcoholics often need and create chaos in their lives; it makes them feel alive. It connects them to others vividly, although in a terribly dysfunctional way. It substitutes for the peaceful and loving interactions with people that they, because of their limitations, cannot create or sustain.
The chaos they create lets them project their issues out onto a kind of amorphous stage that sucks their family members in as reluctant players. It masks the problems that they should own and resolve for themselves by confusing who is responsible for what. That they are avoiding dealing with their own dysfunctional issues becomes less and less obvious to anyone because of the generalized chaotic living situation. They get to blame shift and project and stir up false conflicts and get everybody else to descend to their own level in terms of their behavior. Then they get to say "see, you are the problem here; look at you yell, look at all your bad behavior".
When we let this happen, when we react strongly, emotionally, and negatively to what they do, we have entered their world on their terms. We have ceded all our power to create the peaceful, loving environment we want. We have let them define the parameters of our relationships, of our emotional living space around their dysfunction.
This especially happens when the alcoholic or dysfunctional person creates triangles among three people. Then they have all the power to make edgy alliances with one so that it appears to be two against one, with one outlier "bad guy". Our capacity to build and sustain peaceful fulfilling relationships with anyone who is participating in this charade becomes damaged.
The tornado of the alcoholic has descended and the walls of our stability and the roof of peaceful interaction with our loved ones are blown away and replaced by gales of unbridled emotion and conflict.
Some people confront the gale and tell it to stop blowing, which is impossible and futile and gets them as out of control as the gale-maker. Other people run for cover and try to hide in the basement and wait it out, all the while, losing their right and ability to create their own positive life and growth.
To me, the real power we hold is to walk away from all of this. We can say "This is not how I want to live; this is not how I want to relate to people; I do not choose this chaos and I will not participate in it"
We get to reclaim our right to decide for ourselves how we want to live, how we want to express ourselves, how we want to feel in relationship with others.
This, to me, is what "power" means. We can determine who we are and who we want to be and how we want to live for ourselves. We have the freedom to set boundaries against the actions of others which are destructive to the life situation that we choose.
We are no longer enmeshed in the tornado of dysfunction which the alcoholic in our lives demands. They often, without realizing it, choose chaos as the bedrock of their existence, because it allows them the freedom that their addiction requires. Chaos and the inability to sort out what is healthy and what is not is a plus for addiction. They need it desparately to fool themselves and others about the cost of their addiction on their lives and the lives of their loved ones.
We become free when we can say to our loved one "I love you very much AND I cannot choose to live in the chaos and disruption you are creating and remain whole myself."
What we choose to do then is a function of who we are defining ourselves to be and to become. We move from being a reactive and dysfunctional player in another person's drama to working to create the life we want for ourselves and our children.
Take what you want, leave the rest, and my heartfelt best wishes for you and your son.
ShootingStar1
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Originally Posted by jjj111
Sounds to me like you're really starting to think deeply about what you can control. Congrats, Bob! 
Not sure I have felt this "backed into a corner" in a long time - if ever. Not a good option in sight - which gives "her" too much power (okay, so I'm guessing what I SHOULD say is that by my not wanting to accept the options that are currently apparent to me, I am GIVING her more power - or she is taking it - or both...)
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Originally Posted by ShootingStar1
I think there is a major shift going on in your thinking, for the better. Between the wisdom that has been shared on this thread, and your thoughtful experimenting with different approaches to your wife's outrages, it sounds as if you are coming to a better understanding of how to deal with a difficult life situation.
There is a thing about "power" that I want to mention. Disruptive people, especially those who are highly dysfunctional and very close to us, have a huge impact on our lives. From my own experience, I became deeply enmeshed in their drama, their provocations, their way of living. I think alcoholics often need and create chaos in their lives; it makes them feel alive. It connects them to others vividly, although in a terribly dysfunctional way. It substitutes for the peaceful and loving interactions with people that they, because of their limitations, cannot create or sustain.
The chaos they create lets them project their issues out onto a kind of amorphous stage that sucks their family members in as reluctant players. It masks the problems that they should own and resolve for themselves by confusing who is responsible for what. That they are avoiding dealing with their own dysfunctional issues becomes less and less obvious to anyone because of the generalized chaotic living situation. They get to blame shift and project and stir up false conflicts and get everybody else to descend to their own level in terms of their behavior. Then they get to say "see, you are the problem here; look at you yell, look at all your bad behavior".
When we let this happen, when we react strongly, emotionally, and negatively to what they do, we have entered their world on their terms. We have ceded all our power to create the peaceful, loving environment we want. We have let them define the parameters of our relationships, of our emotional living space around their dysfunction.
This especially happens when the alcoholic or dysfunctional person creates triangles among three people. Then they have all the power to make edgy alliances with one so that it appears to be two against one, with one outlier "bad guy". Our capacity to build and sustain peaceful fulfilling relationships with anyone who is participating in this charade becomes damaged.
The tornado of the alcoholic has descended and the walls of our stability and the roof of peaceful interaction with our loved ones are blown away and replaced by gales of unbridled emotion and conflict.
Some people confront the gale and tell it to stop blowing, which is impossible and futile and gets them as out of control as the gale-maker. Other people run for cover and try to hide in the basement and wait it out, all the while, losing their right and ability to create their own positive life and growth.
To me, the real power we hold is to walk away from all of this. We can say "This is not how I want to live; this is not how I want to relate to people; I do not choose this chaos and I will not participate in it"
We get to reclaim our right to decide for ourselves how we want to live, how we want to express ourselves, how we want to feel in relationship with others.
This, to me, is what "power" means. We can determine who we are and who we want to be and how we want to live for ourselves. We have the freedom to set boundaries against the actions of others which are destructive to the life situation that we choose.
We are no longer enmeshed in the tornado of dysfunction which the alcoholic in our lives demands. They often, without realizing it, choose chaos as the bedrock of their existence, because it allows them the freedom that their addiction requires. Chaos and the inability to sort out what is healthy and what is not is a plus for addiction. They need it desparately to fool themselves and others about the cost of their addiction on their lives and the lives of their loved ones.
We become free when we can say to our loved one "I love you very much AND I cannot choose to live in the chaos and disruption you are creating and remain whole myself."
What we choose to do then is a function of who we are defining ourselves to be and to become. We move from being a reactive and dysfunctional player in another person's drama to working to create the life we want for ourselves and our children.
Take what you want, leave the rest, and my heartfelt best wishes for you and your son.
ShootingStar1
There is a thing about "power" that I want to mention. Disruptive people, especially those who are highly dysfunctional and very close to us, have a huge impact on our lives. From my own experience, I became deeply enmeshed in their drama, their provocations, their way of living. I think alcoholics often need and create chaos in their lives; it makes them feel alive. It connects them to others vividly, although in a terribly dysfunctional way. It substitutes for the peaceful and loving interactions with people that they, because of their limitations, cannot create or sustain.
The chaos they create lets them project their issues out onto a kind of amorphous stage that sucks their family members in as reluctant players. It masks the problems that they should own and resolve for themselves by confusing who is responsible for what. That they are avoiding dealing with their own dysfunctional issues becomes less and less obvious to anyone because of the generalized chaotic living situation. They get to blame shift and project and stir up false conflicts and get everybody else to descend to their own level in terms of their behavior. Then they get to say "see, you are the problem here; look at you yell, look at all your bad behavior".
When we let this happen, when we react strongly, emotionally, and negatively to what they do, we have entered their world on their terms. We have ceded all our power to create the peaceful, loving environment we want. We have let them define the parameters of our relationships, of our emotional living space around their dysfunction.
This especially happens when the alcoholic or dysfunctional person creates triangles among three people. Then they have all the power to make edgy alliances with one so that it appears to be two against one, with one outlier "bad guy". Our capacity to build and sustain peaceful fulfilling relationships with anyone who is participating in this charade becomes damaged.
The tornado of the alcoholic has descended and the walls of our stability and the roof of peaceful interaction with our loved ones are blown away and replaced by gales of unbridled emotion and conflict.
Some people confront the gale and tell it to stop blowing, which is impossible and futile and gets them as out of control as the gale-maker. Other people run for cover and try to hide in the basement and wait it out, all the while, losing their right and ability to create their own positive life and growth.
To me, the real power we hold is to walk away from all of this. We can say "This is not how I want to live; this is not how I want to relate to people; I do not choose this chaos and I will not participate in it"
We get to reclaim our right to decide for ourselves how we want to live, how we want to express ourselves, how we want to feel in relationship with others.
This, to me, is what "power" means. We can determine who we are and who we want to be and how we want to live for ourselves. We have the freedom to set boundaries against the actions of others which are destructive to the life situation that we choose.
We are no longer enmeshed in the tornado of dysfunction which the alcoholic in our lives demands. They often, without realizing it, choose chaos as the bedrock of their existence, because it allows them the freedom that their addiction requires. Chaos and the inability to sort out what is healthy and what is not is a plus for addiction. They need it desparately to fool themselves and others about the cost of their addiction on their lives and the lives of their loved ones.
We become free when we can say to our loved one "I love you very much AND I cannot choose to live in the chaos and disruption you are creating and remain whole myself."
What we choose to do then is a function of who we are defining ourselves to be and to become. We move from being a reactive and dysfunctional player in another person's drama to working to create the life we want for ourselves and our children.
Take what you want, leave the rest, and my heartfelt best wishes for you and your son.
ShootingStar1
1. Included your whole post here because every word is worthy of reading again (and again).
2. Digesting that was uncanny. I kept waiting to get to the part I would say "not me" or "This part is BS", but it never happened.
You just summed up my entire experience over several years in one post, as if every word was a retrospective of my life as regards an alcoholic over the past several years (much of which time I was not even aware of what was really going on).
Yes yes, I know people have been saying "Bob, we have all been there; you are not unique", but what you just wrote, ShootingStar, was so spot on from start to finish as relates to my "experience".
Feels like I have been taking a crash course in 'Life with an Alcoholic', but the last few days have felt as if I am well into some intensive post-graduate studies. I hope I am retaining much of this and that its becoming more intuitive as I go forward; much reading and re-reading of recent posts will be mandatory and intensely useful.
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Originally Posted by AnvilheadII
Anvil has a great saying -- "There is no problem, only resistance to the solution."
she does! I do! it's STILL on the wall of my office right off the left edge of my monitor!
she does! I do! it's STILL on the wall of my office right off the left edge of my monitor!
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