dandylion

Dear Liz, if you are working such a strong alanon program--I just have to ask--WHY do you talk about him so much? You have made it abundantly clear that you are not going to leave the relationship--that you want to stay---THAT IS O.K.--it is your right to make that choice. You have to accept him as he is. AS HE IS. Your decision to stay means that you have chosen what you want---and you have to accept that. You can't control him and you can't change him. You might as well stop trying. You are just spinning your wheels--over and over and over.......

It is time to focus on you--And only you.

Pray to god, but, row for the shore

dandylion

Florence

Can I ask why you told him?

Who puts you and your son at risk daily, who lies to you, is emotionally abusive, and doesn't care about your health or well-being.

Liz, your posts make me feel a little crazy. As soon as you get some feedback, you pull away and tell us how amazing your NPDAH is and how he just needs your compassion and you're the one who [insert negative thing here]. I said it above and I'll say it again: An official NPD diagnosis means that no matter how beautiful, kind, faithful, giving, committed or sexually available you are, he will not change. His well-being is at your expense. That is by definition a toxic, abusive relationship, and I feel irresponsible *****-footing around it.

You are choosing to stay because you're too scared to do something else. Your frustration and exhaustion is also your choice.

wicked

Yes! This too liz!
I just got a picture of you peeking behind the curtain in the Wizard of Oz and seeing an alcoholic NPD running your show. You are not surprised by this, but continue to stare.

Put the curtain down and look down the road at your future liz. Turn away and pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. He means nothing to you now, not as far as your life is concerned.

Like in the Wizard of Oz, you had, have had the power to "go home" any time.
If someone told you how easy it was you would not believe it.

You have the power to do what you want.
Go to the conference and start learning a different way.
I do understand not knowing a different way, but now you KNOW one exists.
Please, for your own health and the future health of your son,
do something different.

If you are suffering from a situational depression, go to a psychiatrist and find out.
You could get a short run of something just to jump start you out of this rut.

It has been within you the whole time. Now, bring it up, however that is, meetings, doctors, medications, but bring it on and do something different.
Everything you need is in you.

Beth

wicked

Yes, I was not afraid of it being too much work, I was afraid my excuses would disappear with him.
My excuses for not living a full life that I controlled, just one I survived and went from one chaotic event to the next (skating on the edge of loosing my job) blaming all the problems on my ex husband.
Pretty convenient for me.
I had to be sober to realize how energizing it is to OWN my own life.
No excuses, no lies. My responsibilities ONLY. Not his, just mine.

I said earlier about how easy it is, (to change and see the light of a new day)
It is simple but not easy.
That is what is said about the program.

Liz, any "compassion" you see from him is an NPD show for your benefit to keep you hooked in. Until you know this, really get this, the "beatings will continue until moral improves."
an old joke for the workplace.

Liz, please do not diminish any progress you make. Progress is progress, measuring is for cooking, not for life programs. There will be a difference in you, that is when you know.

Keep trudging along.
I wish I could go to a conference.
I am going to see how to make that happen.

Beth

lizatola

To answer your first question: I told him when we were in marriage counseling and the subject came up with the counselor and I was angry and it all spilled out. AH was going on and on about something defending his drinking and I lost it. It certainly wasn't a calculated thing.

I guess I'm always trying to balance out the good with the bad. He's not all bad, he's not all good. And, I'm not saying he's amazing. I just said that he's a good man. I can see he has a good heart. Or maybe I'm being fooled by a NPD person who is kind when it suits him or when it strokes his ego? I don't know, truly. I do know that when I see him hug our son and sit with him on his bed and be kind to him, I know that was the man I married.

And, yes, I am choosing to stay for many reasons. Some of which, are self serving and I need to face that about myself, as well. And, I have admitted many times on here that my frustration is my own and that I know I have chosen to be where I am. I came on here to express my tears, yet I know I brought them on myself. Which probably makes it harder for me to face, UGH, knowing the truth about myself. This is what this process is all about, too. Facing who I am in the midst of all the crap swirling around me like a vortex trying to suck me in. Unfortunately, I have not found the strength to get out of the vortex and I get sucked in, sometimes along the edges, and sometimes completely getting swallowed up. Just like everyone else here, I have a lot of crap to weed my way through and some days I don't even know where to start. So, hence, I cry and feel the pain because it's so overwhelming to even know where to begin. Usually, I start with prayer and some days that brings me enough peace. Some days it doesn't.
Thanks, Florence, for your honesty. Nobody said that the truth doesn't hurt.

Tuffgirl

I have to chime in here with my Dr. Laura advice. This passage is from "10 Stupid Things Women Do To Mess Up Their Lives":

Chapter 3: Stupid Devotion

My Acid Test for Genuine Love

I feel certain that what many women call love, under so many obviously ugly, hurtful and sometimes downright dangerous situations, is more about passion and promise and fantasies and desperate dependencies and fears about taking on alternatives.

Real love is a long marination of qualities having to do with respect, admiration, appreciation, character, affection, cooperation, honor, and sacrifice. I ask all these "But I love him" women the same question "If you were a parent, would you introduce this kind of guy - or even this guy - to your daughter?"

Funny how the answer is always an emphatic No!

And lastly:

The love stuff isn't an omen or divine directive - so stop wallowing in it! If you find your rational sense being overridden by mushy feelings...know that you are probably on the wrong track.

Oh wait! One more good one from the same chapter!

Past hurts don't excuse present cowardice...I'm not denying the negative impact of early family crises, disruption, or destructiveness. History is not destiny. You have free will to overcome, grow, change: Invent Yourself.

Florence

Liz, respectfully, your husband's behavior is the opposite of "a good man."

m1k3

Liz, a simple question and you don't even have to answer here.


What are you getting out of all this, and is it worth it?


Your friend,

dandylion

Liz, people don't do anything unless there is something in it for them. Any organism will exert more effort to avoid pain than to make change that will bring comfort. Not until the pain becomes unbearable, will the organism face the lesser pain of change. This is basic human behavior that governs (applies) to all of us.

Liz, I so get it--as I have said in posts over a year ago--You are bonded to this man because he is your security and your identity. Your past abuses have damaged your sense of self and identity that you are getting it from outside yourself--your husband.
You choose to stay with him. O.K. You see him as "good" in spite of his hurting you--of course, you need to see him as more good than bad because of the need to rationalize your staying. This is very common in spouses of abusive partners. Well known--and well recognized by those who work with abused women (and men).

Bottom line--you are staying with him--you have stated this over and over. O.K. It serves your needs to do this.

I think what drives many very compassionate poster on this forum NUTS is that you continue to complain about him, and his atrocities, over and over...and over. Naturally, they are going to jump in and do all they can to try to help you.

Liz, your happiness can come only from your influence and control over yourself. He is a mute point---you are staying;he isn't changing. You are the only one that has the power to control your own happiness or peace of mind. You control yourself, only.

I don't see any value in further debating whether your husband is good or bad or NPD, or, whatever. If he were a stuffed figure sitting in the living room--it would still be the same. He ain't leaving==You ain't leaving.

You can carve out some happiness and serenity by the help of an intense alanon program and intensive work with a GOOD therapist trained to work with abused women.

As I see it, your husband can no longer be your excuse--if you ever want to have any happiness in this world.

dandylion

p.s. everything that I have said above, I have said to you before. My opinions are solely my own and come from wanting to help you out of compassion--just as do the other posters, I believe.

m1k3

A great saying I heard that has really helped me several times.


Pain instructs or it brings more pain.


Your friend,

MamaKit

Liz,
You seem to give your NPD AH the benefit of the doubt with extreme generosity. You say there is a good person in there somewhere and that he is afflicted with his alcoholism and mental health issues to boot. I get a bit dizzy listening to your telling of the despicable way he treats you and then how you coming to his defense when we agree that it is despicable.
It seems to me that on the one hand you want us to sympathize (which we do!) .....and on the other it seems that you fear we will judge you for your choice to stay (and thus, you defend him and recite your dedication to al anon and self-analysis).

Here's the thing....it is NOT OUR PLACE TO JUDGE YOU OR YOUR DECISIONS!!!! We are not grading you on your efforts. I worry that your fear of this judgment compels you to defend his behavior to us. No one is keeping score of your efforts. You don't have to defend him. Many of us have stayed in situations that were awful for a very, very long time, for whatever reason, rational or ridiculous.

I don't profess to be nearly as wise as many here who have posted before me....but I think that you are right up against something here.... you've hit some wall or barrier. The options are either to:
1.Break through it (scary, it may hurt, don't know what's on the other side)
2. Stare at it a while longer until you've adapted to and learned to tolerate (once again) the misery that chased you to this wall
3. Accept that this is the life YOU are choosing to live and turn around and go back.

You've gotten to this place (after A LOT of work) and you see this wall and you are paralyzed.....
As I see it from what I've read here, others on this board don't appear to see the wall. I think they (we) see a door way.

Hugs,
MamaKit

amy55

Dear Liz,

I cry with you also. I know how much you want to hold this marriage together, I did the same thing.

I never did go to alanon, I went to therapists. They kept trying to build me up and have me set up boundaries, and all I wanted to do was to look into the things that I was doing wrong and how to make that better.

So in actuality I was not really listening to them on how to make things better for me, I kept wanting and hoping for things to make my marriage better. I kept taking my own inventory over and over, and kept finding faults with me. Things like, he called me a b!tch, and I reacted. What's wrong with me? didn't I learn about detachment?

I found out after I left, that I used therapy to my detriment. I used it to continue to make me more and more submissive and accepting of awful behavior.

Liz, I read your posts, you are always trying and trying, always looking at your faults, always taking your inventory. Why? Don't have to answer that, because I did the same thing.

The more that I tried to detach, and say everything is fine, it's okay, I just need to learn how to deal with this, the more I was turning into a "Stepford Wife".

Nothing phased him at all, in fact, I would probably say that he was happier because I wasn't nagging anymore, but I was losing myself, and I was becoming more miserable each day.

So while I do know that therapy works, and alanon works, sometimes I needed to think about how I used it. Was it so that I could be happy? or was it so that I could live with something that I could not deal with?

Ok, now ducking my head for all alanon people and therapist. Will still stand by my feeling of how it is used, for your betterment, or to your detriment.

Hugs to all

dandylion

Dear Amy, you don't have to duck as far as I am concerned (LOL). You are not making a criticism of therapies---only that a person has to make sure that the goal of any therapy is in their best interest.

I think his is sound advice for anyone who is looking for help.

dandylion

Aeryn

I've been reading this thread and haven't responded because this thread triggered me a lot and I wasn't sure why. It just made me feel sad - the original post made me sad, it all made me sad. Threads don't usually do that to me but this one did. I finally realized it was triggering my childhood memories - this was my family - my father as an A (an absent one) and my mother spent her time trying to protect our "image" and make our lives appear happy. What my mom didn't know was I in turn spent my energy in my early childhood years trying to pretend her plan to make our lives "happy" was working when it wasn't. When I got older I quit pretending and well...things got worse from there.

I say all this only because as an adult I had trouble leaving my marriage because like my mom I was trying to keep up the image and appearance of happiness - so childhood really does affect adulthood and I know where you're coming from there, for me I had to re-explore and work thorough those childhood feelings before I could even start to address how they were affecting me now/today and take any action. And I'm still working on it - so I understand how hard that is.

Your post gave me some perspective I didn't have before (my Mom's perspective) so I thank you for that - I have expended a lot of energy being angry with her but I see she was also in pain. So I guess hearing your pain made me have more empathy for her and I just felt sad.

I say all this not because I want to compare your situation to my childhood (every situation is unique so they are not the same) but because I feel the sadness and sadness is contagious. I also feel that sadness can be a precursor to change should you want it to be - you and only you get to choose whether it is or not.

Everyone's life is different and their choices different so no one here can change your decisions/choices and they are not ours to judge, all we can do is wish you the best with them.

lizatola

Agreed. What Amy said really made me think about what I'm getting out of therapy and how I'm using it. My therapist actually is awesome and she challenges me weekly. Without her, I'd be even further in my rut. No really, I would be, LOL.

Amy said something that really stuck out: Am I using Al Anon and therapy to learn how to live with something I could not deal with? Maybe that's the key right there? I find that the advice I get from my sponsor is that it's OK to stay put and that I can just sit on the outside and watch my AH fall down again and again and that I can just live in the same house with him until I feel God telling me it's time to go. Well, I've been praying and journaling and talking to God, maybe I'm just not listening.

Something to truly think about. Thanks Amy and Dandylion!

laurie6781

(((((Liz)))))

This is NOT what Alanon is about. Alanon is a way to USE those 12 STEPS to work on US! I worked those steps and worked them just as hard as I did when I did them for AA. Then here was the 'hooker.' I HAD TO LEARN HOW TO LIVE THOSE 12 STEPS.

I had to learn how to LIVE the PRINCIPLES of each step in my DAILY life:

Here is one version of the principles:

Amd here is another version of those principles:

I use both of these definitions to help me keep 'centered' about ME.

I certainly will not 'throw' anything at you Amy, rofl Your post makes perfect sense. Many of us, myself included can, do, and have used 'therapy' and 'Alanon' as an excuse to stay mired in the muck and mire fighting to keep the alligators from chewing on my ass. I didn't like the way that made me feel finally, and started 'slogging' on through that 'muck and mire' to get to 'high and dry' ground.

Hopefully, (((((Liz))))) you too will 'slog' on through the 'muck and mire' to find 'high and dry' ground to get a new perspective on YOUR LIFE.

Also, since Alanon was my 'second go round' with those dang 12 steps, lol it didn't take me as long to STOP analyzing each one to the point of 'analysis paralysis' and just DO the dang step in question. Sheesh I used to, and still can, if I am not careful get myself into a real CATCH 22 with my over analyzing!

I will now ask you Liz, what Step are you working, not analyzing, but WORKING?

Love and hugs,

lizatola

Thanks Laurie. I've never seen the steps shown like that before, I copied and pasted it to a document that I could print later.

And, Laurie, I truly believe that what Amy said had some truth to it for me. I know what the steps are for, I know what they are about, but I have to be honest with myself and think about where I am and how I'm using the steps. I know that when I dutifully go to meetings, lead meetings, call friends from the program, call my sponsor on a regular basis, etc that I gain clarity and I find peace because I come to have hope and peace that wasn't there before. But, when I slack off a bit I hop on my own crazy train and get sucked back in to AH's issues so very easily.

Technically, I'm slowly working through step 6 now, but I feel that probably go through steps 1-3 every single day, surrendering to that Higher Power being the key to those 3 steps. My biggest issue, if I'm honest, is not just fear but not being able to hear/feel the little voice inside. The spirit of my HP talking to me, guiding me, etc. Either I put up walls and shut him out, or I am so unfamiliar with the 'sound/feeling' that I don't know if it's true or believable to me. So, I guess that sums up 'trusting' my HP and that little voice. It's something that has been gone from inside of me for well over 20 years. My dad's beat downs verbally did a number on me, but at the time I didn't know how they'd affect the choices I'd make as an adult and how they'd actually shape my self esteem and self worth. Something to think about.

BlueSkies1

I just want to see you in the driver's seat of your own life.

Not your H. Not SR. Not Alanon. Not even God.

For the sake of discussion, maybe God is busy this year. Lots of wars going on and starving people to attend to. Maybe God is speaking to you--with silence.
Nope Liz, this one's not on me, he's saying. YOU get in the driver's seat. That's what you need. I don't want responsibility for this decision...I want you to make a decision all on your own. I think it would be good for you to feel both the fear, and the responsibility, and the freedom, of making your own decisions, so I'm sitting this one out.

Me personally...I don't want you to hear that "little voice" inside you. I want you to hear a big one--whatever you do, whatever you decide, and I want that voice to come from YOU...nobody else...just you...driving your own life...a BIG VOICE THAT IS ALL YOUR OWN!

dandylion

LiZ, I think that it is probable that while alanon is focused on changes in YOU, and the expectation is that you understand and hear that---you have been so desperate to save the marriage that everything you hear is "translated", by your brain, to finding a way to apply it to a faltering marriage. Thus, your focus has remained on the marriage and him.

I am just giving you my gut impression.......

dandylion

fourmaggie

i did the same...but thats the whole point...to work a good program day in day out, outside of AL ANON...


this stuck out for me...