daredevil

AVRT adherents, per the approach articulated on the RR website, do seem to have a collective intolerance for any approach that isn’t their own, so an AVRT sub-forum may be warranted.

andyh

I'm not sure there is an inherent problem with AVRT on the Forum, just with a small, albeit vocal, minority of its adherents. I think AVRT is an interesting, thought-provoking philosophy that is worth hearing, even if one doesn't choose to go down the AVRT path. There are plenty of AVRT'ers who seem able to explain it to newcomers in a non-dogmatic manner & participate in discussions about other techniques without feeling the need to shout them down or "call out the AV".

SC has a very reasonable set of rules (https://www.soberrecovery.com/forums...7-welcome.html (Welcome)) but it seems little is done when these are infringed. I'm sure it's readily apparent to Mods who the very few persistent offenders are from complained-about posts & other reporting. I really think that creating an AVRT subforum would just serve to move the behaviour rather than reduce/eliminate it, whilst at the same time depriving the community of a more positively-framed AVRT perspective.

soberlicious

I agree that an important part of AVRT is challenging and rejecting many ideas about addiction and recovery. That piece of it is germane to applying the technique, so you're right it's hard to discuss it and leave that part out. It would be like discussing AA, but leaving the steps out. I mean, you kinda can't do that and fully understand the program.

Consider that while it may cross a line for you, it may be just the idea that someone else needs to hear. That's where this gets difficult.

Who is going to decide which statements are ok and which statements cross the line? I mean obvi name-calling and thinks like "you're an idiot" aren't conducive to discussion, but someone presenting an idea that you don't agree with? or in a way that you found abrupt? What if that same statement sparks an epiphany in someone and they are able to end their addiction and find peace and freedom?

soberlicious

So if a subforum is created, what does that mean? Does that mean that discussion of AVRT is off limits in other sections? Suggesting AVRT to newcomers would be ok or no?

soberlicious

Please explain what this means.

andyh

where AVRT is discussed constructively versus, for instance, criticizing some other technique purely on the basis of it not being AVRT.

daredevil

Even when AVRT is discussed constructively, any opposing ideas meet vehement opposition— with ‘this is off-topic for this thread’ or some derivation thereof. AVRT, of all secular methods, has a following that embraces wholesale rejection of other secular methods. Therefore, one can reasonably draw from that that it deserves its own forum for those tolerant of intolerance, or those intolerant of tolerance.

tyler

I guess I don't understand the need to criticize other forms of recovery in order to promote your own. The 12 steps are the program I have the most familiarity with so I will use them as an example.

For me, personally, 12-step recovery was not a good fit. I have never felt "powerless over my addiction". On the contrary, I felt that I was, in fact, the only person who had any degree of power over them. I don't believe that any sort of "higher power" has any degree of control over my life, so I didn't find that helpful either. Neither of these things change the fact that 12-step recovery has been helpful for many people in overcoming their substance abuse problems.

I try to frame my comments from a personal perspective because what is my "truth" is not necessarily your truth. This forum is a great place to learn and share ideas with others that may or may not travel a similar path as yours. We have people from all over the world that contribute here and as many different views as there are people.

In 12-step recovery one of the basic premises is to share your ESH (Experience, Strength and Hope) in order to share the "message". Of course being that human people are the ones doing the sharing it sometimes doesn't work out that way, but in my opinion it is a good goal to reach for.

soberlicious

Again, I'm not sure how one would be able to define that? Can you give me some specific examples of what to say and what not to say? I will need some way of knowing if my posts are acceptable for widespread consumption or if they should be relegated to the contained area.

JeffreyAK

Well if that's the criteria, personal attacks are ok because they might someday help someone quit drinking, then there are no bounds or lines and it's open season.

I agree it's hard to draw a line, though. For example, I was helped immensely early on by the old orange-papers site, which was the most vitriolic collection of information and pseudo-information in the world of addiction recovery. It's amazing to me, now, looking back, that I found value in all that vitriol, "Get a life Mr. Orange" comes to mind, but at the time I did because I felt intense pressure to follow a recovery path that didn't fit me at all, and I felt vindicated that someone else was as angry about it as I was. I found Lifering instead, and the same problems came up on their sites and especially chat rooms, discussion always somehow wound up going back to hating on AA, and it became a regular moderator problem, trying to find some kind of balance.

There do need to be lines, and it's usually clear when someone runs screaming past them, but on the fringes they can be hard to draw.

Carlotta

This happened to me recently and I do agree with you Jeffrey, it crosses the line and is absolutely unhelpful and just meant to be demeaning to the targeted person. I hardly see how it would help someone suddenly "see the light" especially people like you and I who have been firmly abstinent for some years.

I am active on a regular forum (nothing to do with alcoholism etc..) where the mods can issue infractions and will sometimes ban someone for a few days to give them time to chill and help diffuse the situation. Maybe something to consider rather than relegate a whole group to an obscure subforum

Carlotta

That would be really a shame because people do quit with AVRT and it could be the one approach which really clicks with a new person and could be the difference between them getting sober or struggling ad nauseum.

soberlicious

A statement about collective AV that you don't agree with is not the same as a personal attack. I don't understand the winky face either...does that mean you're kidding about what you typed?

Morning Glory

With all due respect, our AVRT members have had to demonstrate a lot of restraint to adhere to the forum rules.
They pretty much have had to leave a big part of their method at the door.

JeffreyAK

If you go back and read what I typed earlier, you'll see that I wasn't talking about a general statement about "collective AV", I was talking about a directed personal attack. Is that ok with you, or not ok?

freshstart57

In my journey, identifying AV was essential, but only when it concerned my own thoughts. Identifying AV in the thoughts of others didn’t do squat for my sobriety, especially if it was pointed out to them.

I see this behaviour sometimes from some RR proponents, and the results are mixed. Sometimes the message is received in a helpful manner, but frequently egos get bruised and all chance of knowledge exchange gets burned to ashes. Feelings are hurt, offence is taken, and personal brands are devalued. Nobody wins.

I think that this stuff would continue to happen in an RR only forum too, unfortunately, so there may not be a way around it. Relegating what I see to be a very useful technique to an obscure corner of SR would make it that much more difficult to find by those curious about alternatives to 12 step recovery. I also believe that we need to find our own message in the form that appeals to us personally, and Trimpey’s message might not be the right one for the individual seeker.

So, I would like to see the sc forum maintained as it currently is. I don’t know how to change the approach other RR advocates take, nor would I presume to do so. I so very much appreciate your intent, Morning Glory, to work to improve this most important corner of the internet. You take responsibility and pride, and have a personal stake here, something that many find impossible to understand and appreciate.

Thanks, eh?

AlericB

I think this is true for most of the AVRT adherents here but not for a small disruptive minority, and I agree with Andy's earlier comment:
‎
The fact that AVRT includes intolerance towards other recovery methods as part of its dogma should not give it special dispensation in a forum which is open to other approaches.

This may sound like I don't appreciate your aims in creating the secular forum but I've read something of the history of this and I do appreciate the great effort you made and I have been one of the many beneficiaries of it so thanks

Morning Glory

Wholesome

I would also like to see the status quo maintained. I've seen lots of other methods discussed on SC, Refuge Recovery, CBT, mindfullness, SMART, and recently TFM. I would hate to see AVRT pushed into some tiny corner on here because I've seen it work for people, myself included. I understand how pointing out AV can make some people uncomfortable, but the AV is a liar and it warps thinking, seeing through those lies can make all the difference when trying to break free. Knowledge is power.

andyh

ok, so I've done this a few times & it seems to have upset some people, which wasn't my intention. conversely, I've also had PMs thanking me for doing it from other people.

if something fairly specific is being discussed & the discussion is going off on a tangent, then maybe it is off-topic *for the thread*. it's definitely not saying "your contribution is no good", it's just maybe taking the topic off-track. there's nothing to stop people starting a new thread to continue their discussion, & putting a link to it in the original thread if they wish, so others can follow the discussion to the new thread.