JeffreyAK

Isn't this kinda symptomatic? No poster here has any right to control who posts where, or who offers opinions, but when we think we do, we become part of the us/them problem that divides people into camps? Something to think about. Secular just means, not religion-based - that's a lot of territory.

JeffreyAK

I think it evolved into a place where secular-minded people are allowed to talk about 12-step programs, but it's rarely used by anyone. There are agnostic AA camps, I think that's what the original focus was supposed to be, but maybe someone who's been around here longer than me knows.

Fusion

I don’t agree, the Big Book recommends that one finds “God” or their own version of a God, I.e. a door knob or Group of Drunks. Here are some excerpts from the Big Book, the first 164 pages, which is intended to be a religious or spiritual conversion. Whereas Secular Connections denotes reliance upon oneself.

AA Big Book references to God and Higher Power in the first 164 pages:

Pg.xvi: Though he could not accept all the tenets of the Oxford Groups, he was convinced of the need for moral inventory, confession of personality defects, restitution to those harmed, helpfulness to others, and the necessity of belief in and dependence upon God.
Pg.xvii: In the fall of 1939 Fulton Oursler, then editor of Liberty, printed a piece in his magazine, called “Alcoholics and God.”
Pg.xxv: They believe in themselves, and still more in the Power which pulls chronic alcoholics back from the gates of death.
Pg.xxvi: In nearly all cases, their ideals must be grounded in a power greater than themselves, if they are to re-create their lives.
Pg.xxvii: One feels that something more than human power is needed to produce the essential psychic change.
Pg.10: I had always believed in a Power greater than myself.
Pg.10: I simply had to believe in a Spirit of the Universe, who knew neither time nor limitation.
Pg.10: When they talked of a God personal to me, who was love, superhuman strength and direction, I became irritated and my mind snapped shut against such a theory.
Pg.11: But my friend sat before me, and he made the point-blank declaration that God had done for him what he could not do for himself.
Pg.11: Here was something at work in a human heart which had done the impossible.
Pg.12: The word God still aroused a certain antipathy.
Pg.12: When the thought was expressed that there might be a God personal to me this feeling was intensified.
Pg.12: I could go for such conceptions as Creative Intelligence, Universal Mind or Spirit of Nature but I resisted the thought of a Czar of the Heavens, however loving His way might be.
Pg.12: He said, "Why don't you choose your own conception of God?"
Pg.12: It was only a matter of being willing to believe in a Power greater than myself.
Pg.12: Thus was I convinced that God is concerned with us humans when we want Him enough.
Pg.12: For a brief moment, I had needed and wanted God.
Pg.12: There had been a humble willingness to have Him with me - and He came.
Pg.12: But soon the sense of His presence had been blotted out by (pg.13) worldly clamors, mostly those within myself.
Pg.13: There I humbly offered myself to God, as I then understood Him, to do with me as He would.
Pg.13: I placed myself unreservedly under His care and direction.
Pg.13: I admitted for the first time that of myself I was nothing; that without Him I was lost.
Pg.13: I ruthlessly faced my sins and became willing to have my new-found Friend take them away, root and branch.
Pg.13: I was to test my thinking by the new God-consciousness within.
Pg.13: I was to sit quietly when in doubt, asking only for direction and strength to meet my problems as He would have me.
Pg.13: My friend promised when these things were done I would enter upon a new relationship with my Creator; that I would have the elements of a way of living which answered all my problems.
Pg.13: Belief in the power of God, plus enough willingness, honesty and humility (pg.14) to establish and maintain the new order of things, were the essential requirements.
Pg.14: I must turn in all things to the Father of Light who presides over us all.
Pg.14: I felt lifted up, as though the great clean wind of a mountain top blew through and through.
Pg.14: God comes to most men gradually, but His impact on me was sudden and profound.
Pg.25: But for the grace of God, there would have been thousands more convincing demonstrations.
Pg.25: We have found much of heaven and we have been rocketed into a fourth dimension of existence of which we had not even dreamed.
Pg.25: The great fact is just this, and nothing less: That we have had deep and effective spiritual experiences which have revolutionized our whole attitude toward life, toward our fellows and toward God's universe. The central fact of our lives today is the absolute certainty that our Creator has entered into our hearts and lives in a way which is indeed miraculous. He has commenced to accomplish those things for us which we could never do by ourselves.
Pg.25: We were in a position where life was becoming impossible, and if we had passed into the region from which there is no return through human aid, we had but two alternatives: One was to go on to the bitter end, blotting out the consciousness of our intolerable situation as best we could; and the other, to accept spiritual help.
Pg.27: Some of our alcoholic readers may think they can do without spiritual help.
Pg.27: "Yes," replied the doctor, "there is. Exceptions to cases such as yours have been occurring since early times. Here and there, once in a while, alcoholics have had what are called vital spiritual experiences.
Pg.27: This hope, however, was destroyed by the doctor's telling him that while his religious convictions were very good, in his case they did not spell the necessary vital spiritual experience.
Pg.28: What seemed at first a flimsy reed, has proved to be the loving and powerful hand of God.
Pg.28: The distinguished American psychologist, William James, in his book "Varieties of Religious Experience," indicates a multitude of ways in which men have discovered God.
Pg.28: If what we have learned and felt and seen means anything at all, it means that all of us, whatever our race, creed, or color are the children of a living Creator with whom we may form a relationship upon simple and understandable terms as soon as we are willing and honest enough to try.
Pg.29: Each individual, in the personal stories, describes in his own language and from his own point of view the way he established his relationship with God.
Pg.39: Fred would not believe himself an alcoholic, much less accept a spiritual remedy for his problem.
Pg.42: "Then they outlined the spiritual answer and program of action which a hundred of them had followed successfully. ..."
Pg.43: As to two of you men, whose stories I have heard, there is no doubt in my mind that you were 100% hopeless, apart from divine help.
Pg.43: Except in a few rare cases, neither he nor any other human being can provide such a defense. His defense must come from a Higher Power.
Pg.44: If that be the case, you may be suffering from an illness which only a spiritual experience will conquer.
Pg.44: To be doomed to an alcoholic death or to live on a spiritual basis are not always easy alternatives to face.
Pg.44: But after a while we had to face the fact that we must find a spiritual basis of life - or else.
Pg.45: We could wish to be moral, we could wish to be philosophically comforted, in fact, we could will these things with all our might, but the needed power wasn't there.
Pg.45: Lack of power, that was our dilemma. We had to find a power by which we could live, and it had to be a Power greater than ourselves. Obviously. But where and how were we to find this Power?
Pg.45: Well, that's exactly what this book is about. Its main object is to enable you to find a Power greater than yourself which will solve your problem.
Pg.45: And it means, of course, that we are going to talk about God.
Pg.45: But his face falls when we speak of spiritual matters, especially when we mention God, for we have re-opened a subject which our man thought he had neatly evaded or entirely ignored.
Pg.45: To others, the word "God" brought up a particular idea of Him with which someone had tried to impress them during childhood.
Pg.45: With that rejection we imagined we had abandoned the God idea entirely.
Pg.46: (pg.45) We were bothered (pg.46) with the thought that faith and dependence upon a Power beyond ourselves was somewhat weak, even cowardly.
Pg.46: How could a Supreme Being have anything to do with it all? And who could comprehend a Supreme Being anyhow? Yet, in other moments, we found ourselves thinking, when enchanted by a starlit night, "Who, then, made all this?"
Pg.46: We found that as soon as we were able to lay aside prejudice and express even a willingness to believe in a Power greater than ourselves, we commenced to get results, even though it was impossible for any of us to fully define or comprehend that Power, which is God.
Pg.46: Much to our relief, we discovered we did not need to consider another's conception of God.
Pg.46: Our own conception, {of God** however inadequate, was sufficient to make the approach and to effect a contact with Him.
Pg.46: As soon as we admitted the possible existence of a Creative Intelligence, a Spirit of the Universe underlying the totality of things, we began to be possessed of a new sense of power and direction, provided we took other simple steps.
Pg.46: We found that God does not make too hard terms with those who seek Him.
Pg.46: To us, the Realm of Spirit is broad, roomy, all inclusive; never exclusive or forbidding to those who earnestly seek. It is open, we believe, to all men.
Pg.47: When, therefore, we speak to you of God, we mean your own conception of God.
Pg.47: At the start, this was? all we needed to commence spiritual growth, to effect our first conscious relation with God as we understood Him.
Pg.47: So we used our own conception, {of God** however limited it was.
Pg.47: We needed to ask ourselves but one short question. "Do I now believe, or am I even willing to believe, that there is a Power greater than myself?"
Pg.48: The reader may still ask why he should believe in a Power greater than himself.
Pg.00:
Pg.49: When, however, the perfectly logical assumption is suggested that underneath the material world and life as we see it, there is an All Powerful, Guiding, Creative Intelligence, right there our perverse streak comes to the surface and we laboriously set out to convince ourselves it isn't so.
Pg.49: We read wordy books and indulge in windy arguments, thinking we believe this universe needs no God to explain it.
Pg.49: Instead of regarding ourselves as intelligent agents, spearheads of God's ever advancing Creation, we agnostics and atheists chose to believe that our human intelligence was the last word, the alpha and the omega, the beginning and end of all.
Pg.50: In our personal stories you will find a wide variation in the way each teller approaches and conceives of the Power which is greater than himself.
Pg.50: Whether we agree with a particular approach or conception, {of God** seems to make little difference.
Pg.50: Every one of them has gained access to, and believes in, a Power greater than himself.
Pg.50: They flatly declare that since they have come to believe in a Power greater than themselves, to take a certain attitude toward that Power, and to do certain simple things, there has been a revolutionary change in their way of living and thinking.
Pg.51: When many hundreds of people are able to say that the consciousness of the Presence of God is today the most important fact of their lives, they present a powerful reason why one should have faith.
Pg.51: Had not people said God had reserved this privilege {flying** to the (pg.52) birds?
Pg.52: When we saw others solve their problems by a simple reliance upon the Spirit of the Universe, we had to stop doubting the power of God.
Pg.52: But the God idea did. {work**
Pg.52: When others showed us that "God-sufficiency" (pg.53) worked with them, we began to feel like those who had insisted the Wrights would never fly.
Pg.53: When we became alcoholics, crushed by a self-imposed crisis we could not postpone or evade, we had to fearlessly face the proposition that either God is everything or else He is nothing. God either is, or He isn't.
Pg.55: They said God made these things possible, and we only smiled.
Pg.55: Actually we were fooling ourselves, for deep down in every man, woman, and child, is the fundamental idea of God.
Pg.55: For faith in a Power greater than ourselves, and miraculous demonstrations of that power in human lives, are facts as old as man himself.
Pg.55: We finally saw that faith in some kind of God was a part of our make-up, just as much as the feeling we have for a friend.
Pg.55: Sometimes we had to search fearlessly, but He was there.
Pg.55: He was as much a fact as we were.
Pg.55: We found the Great Reality deep down within us.
Pg.55: In the last analysis it is only there that He may be found.
Pg.56: Our friend's gorge rose as he bitterly cried out: "If there is a God, He certainly hasn't done anything for me!"
Pg.56: "Who are you to say there is no God?"
Pg.56: In a few seconds he was overwhelmed by a conviction of the Presence of God.
Pg.56: It poured over and through him with the certainty and majesty of a great tide at flood.
Pg.56: He stood in the Presence of Infinite Power and Love.
Pg.56: For the first time, he lived in conscious companionship with his Creator.
Pg.57: God had restored his sanity.
Pg.57: He humbly offered himself to his Maker - then he knew.
Pg.57: Even so has God restored us all to our right minds.
Pg.57: But He has come to all who have honestly sought Him.
Pg.57: When we drew near to Him He disclosed Himself to us!
Pg.59: But there is One who has all power-that One is God. May you find Him now!
Pg.59: We asked His protection and care with complete abandon.
Pg.59: 2.) Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
Pg.59: 3.) Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
Pg.59: 5.) Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
Pg.59: 6.) Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
Pg.59: 7.) Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
Pg.59: 11.) Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.
Pg.60: (b.) That probably no human power could have relieved our alcoholism.
Pg.60: (c.) That God could and would if He were sought.
Pg.60: Being convinced, we were at Step Three, which is that we decided to turn our will and our life over to God as we understood Him.
Pg.62: Above everything, we alcoholics must be rid of this selfishness. We must, or it kills us! God makes that possible.
Pg.62: And there often seems no way of entirely getting rid of self without His aid.
Pg.62: We had to have God's help.
Pg.62: First of all, we had to quit playing God.
Pg.62: Next, we decided that hereafter in this drama of life, God was going to be our Director.
Pg.62: He is the Principal; we are His agents.
Pg.62: He is the Father, and we are His children.
Pg.63: We had a new Employer.
Pg.63: Being all powerful, He provided what we needed, if we kept close to Him and performed His work well.
Pg.63: As we felt new power flow in, as we enjoyed peace of mind, as we discovered we could face life successfully, as we became conscious of His presence, we began to lose our fear of today, tomorrow or the hereafter.
Pg.63: Many of us said to our Maker, as we understood Him: "God, I offer myself to Thee-to build with me and to do with me as Thou wilt. Relieve me of the bondage of self, that I may better do Thy will. Take away my difficulties, that victory over them may bear witness to those I would help of Thy Power, Thy Love, and Thy Way of life. May I do Thy will always!"
Pg.63: We thought well before taking this step making sure we were ready; that we could at last abandon ourselves utterly to Him.
Pg.63: But it is better to meet God alone than with one who might misunderstand.
Pg.66: For when harboring such feelings we shut ourselves off from the sunlight of the Spirit.
Pg.67: We asked God to help us show them the same tolerance, pity, and patience that we would cheerfully grant a sick friend.
Pg.67: When a person offended we said to ourselves, "This is a sick man. How can I be helpful to him? God save me from being angry. Thy will be done."
Pg.67: We cannot be helpful to all people, but at least God will show us how to take a kindly and tolerant view of each and every one.
Pg.68: For we are now on a different basis; the basis of trusting and relying upon God.
Pg.68: We trust infinite God rather than our finite selves.
Pg.68: We are in the world to play the role He assigns.
Pg.68: Just to the extent that we do as we think He would have us, and humbly rely on Him, does He enable us to match calamity with serenity.
Pg.68: We never apologize to anyone for depending upon our Creator.
Pg.68: They trust their God.
Pg.68: We never apologize for God.
Pg.68: Instead we let Him demonstrate, through us, what He can do.
Pg.68: We ask Him to remove our fear and direct our attention to what He would have us be.
Pg.69: We asked God to mold our ideals and help us to live up to them.
Pg.69: We remembered always that our sex powers were God-given and therefore good, neither to be used lightly or selfishly nor to be despised and loathed.
Pg.69: In meditation, we ask God what we should do about each specific matter.
Pg.69: God alone can judge our sex situation.
Pg.70: (pg.69) Counsel with (pg.70) persons is often desirable, but we let God be the final judge
Pg.70: If we are sorry for what we have done, and have the honest desire to let God take us to better things, we believe we will be forgiven and will have learned our lesson.
Pg.71: We hope you are convinced now that God can remove whatever self-will has blocked you off from Him.
Pg.72: We have been trying to get a new attitude, a new relationship with our Creator, and to discover the obstacles in our path.
Pg.72: This requires action on our part, which, when completed, will mean that we have admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being, the exact nature of our defects.
Pg.75: We begin to feel the nearness of our Creator.
Pg.75: We may have had certain spiritual beliefs, but now we begin to have a spiritual experience.
Pg.75: We feel we are on the Broad Highway, walking hand in hand with the Spirit of the Universe.
Pg.75: We thank God from the bottom of our heart that we know Him better.
Pg.76: Are we now ready to let God remove from us all the things which we have admitted are objectionable?
Pg.76: Can He now take them all - every one?
Pg.76: If we still cling to something we will not let go, we ask God to help us be willing.
Pg.76: When ready, we say something like this: "My Creator, I am now willing that you should have all of me, good and bad. I pray that you now remove from me every single defect of character which stands in the way of my usefulness to you and my fellows. Grant me strength, as I go out from here, to do your bidding. Amen." We have then completed Step Seven.
Pg.77: Our real purpose is to fit ourselves to be of maximum service to God and the people about us.
Pg.77: We don't use this as an excuse for shying away from the subject of God.
Pg.79: Reminding ourselves that we have decided to go to any lengths to find a spiritual experience, we ask {God** that we be given strength and direction to do the right thing, no matter what the personal consequences may be.
Pg.80: If we have obtained permission, have consulted with others, asked God to help and the drastic step is indicated we must not shrink.
Pg.80: After consulting with his wife and partner he came to the conclusion that it was better to take those risks than to stand before his Creator guilty of such ruinous slander.
Pg.80: He saw that he had to place the outcome in God's hands or he would soon start drinking again, and all would be lost anyhow.
Pg.81: We are sorry for what we have done and, God willing, it shall not be repeated.
Pg.83: So we clean house with the family, asking each morning in meditation that our Creator show us the way of patience, tolerance, kindliness and love.
Pg.83: The spiritual life is not a theory. We have to live it.
Pg.83: As God's people we stand on our feet; we don't crawl before anyone.
Pg.84: We will suddenly realize that God is doing for us what we could not do for ourselves.
Pg.84: We have entered the world of the Spirit.
Pg.84: When these crop up, we ask God at once to remove them.
Pg.85: Every day is a day when we must carry the vision of God's will into all of our activities. "How can I best serve Thee - Thy will (not mine) be done."
Pg.85: Much has already been said about receiving strength, inspiration, and direction from Him who has all knowledge and power.
Pg.85: If we have carefully followed directions, we have begun to sense the flow of His Spirit into us.
Pg.85: To some extent we have become God-conscious.
Pg.86: After making our review we ask God's forgiveness and inquire what corrective measures should be taken.
Pg.86: Before we begin, we ask God to direct our thinking, especially asking that it be divorced from self-pity, dishonest or self-seeking motives.
Pg.86: Under these conditions we can employ our mental faculties with assurance, for after all God gave us brains to use.
Pg.86: Here we ask God for inspiration, an intuitive thought or a decision.
Pg.87: Being still inexperienced and having just made conscious contact with God, it is not probable that we are going to be inspired at all times.
Pg.88: (pg.87) We constantly remind ourselves we are no longer (pg.88) running the show, humbly saying to ourselves many times each day "Thy will be done."
Pg.88: So we let God discipline us in the simple way we have just outlined.
Pg.92: If the man be agnostic or atheist, make it emphatic that he does not have to agree with your conception of God.
Pg.92: He can choose any conception {of God** he likes, provided it makes sense to him.
Pg.92: The main thing is that he be willing to believe in a Power greater than himself and that he live by spiritual principles.
Pg.95: If he is to find God, the desire must come from within.
Pg.95: We have no monopoly on God; we merely have an approach that worked with us.
Pg.98: The minute we put our work on a service plane, the alcoholic commences to rely upon our assistance rather than upon God.
Pg.98: Some of us have taken very hard knocks to learn this truth: Job or no job - wife or no wife - we simply do not stop drinking so long as we place dependence upon other people ahead of dependence on God.
Pg.98: Burn the idea into the consciousness of every man that he can get well regardless of anyone. The only condition is that he trust in God and clean house.
Pg.100: (pg.99) Remind the prospect that his recovery is not dependent (pg.100) upon people. It is dependent upon his relationship with God.
Pg.100: . When we look back, we realize that the things which came to us when we put ourselves in God's hands were better than anything we could have planned.
Pg.100: Follow the dictates of a Higher Power and you will presently live in a new and wonderful world, no matter what your present circumstances!
Pg.102: Keep on the firing line of life with these motives and God will keep you unharmed.
Pg.114: The power of God goes deep!
Pg.116: Time after time, this apparent calamity has been a boon to us, for it opened up a path which led to the discovery of God.
Pg.116: If God can solve the age-old riddle of alcoholism, He can solve your problems too.
Pg.116: But it was a silly idea that we were too good to need God.
Pg.117: We urge you to try our program, for nothing will be so helpful to your husband as the radically changed attitude toward him which God will show you how to have.
Pg.120: God has either removed your husband's liquor problem or He has not.
Pg.120: If a repetition is to be prevented, place the problem, along with everything else, in God's hands.
Pg.121: So to you out there - who may soon be with us - we say "good luck and god bless you!"
Pg.123: God, they believe, almost owes this recompense on a long overdue account.
Pg.00: Cling to the thought that, in God's hands, the dark past is the greatest possession you have - the key to life and happiness for others.
Pg.128: He may demand that the family find God in a hurry, or exhibit amazing indifference to them and say he is above worldly considerations.
Pg.128: They may be jealous of a God who has stolen dad's affections.
Pg.128: While grateful that he drinks no more, they may not like the idea that God has accomplished the miracle where they failed.
Pg.128: What about his talk that God will take care of them? They suspect father is a bit balmy!
Pg.129: Dad may feel that for years his drinking has placed him on the wrong side of every argument, but that now he has become a superior person with God on his side.
Pg.130: This dream world has been replaced by a great sense of purpose, accompanied by a growing consciousness of the power of God in our lives.
Pg.130:We have come to believe He would like us to keep our heads in the clouds with Him, but that our feet ought to be firmly planted on earth.
Pg.132: We are sure God wants us to be happy, joyous, and free.
Pg.132: But it is clear that we made our own misery. God didn't do it.
Pg.132: Avoid then, the deliberate manufacture of misery, but if trouble comes, cheerfully capitalize it as an opportunity to demonstrate His omnipotence.
Pg.133: God has abundantly supplied this world with fine doctors, psychologists, and practitioners of various kinds.
Pg.133: Try to remember that though God has wrought miracles among us, we should never belittle a good doctor or psychiatrist.
Pg.155: (pg.154) His sanity returned and he thanked (pg.155) God.
Pg.156: (pg.155) He saw that he would have to face (pg.156) his problems squarely that God might give him mastery.
Pg.157: The two friends spoke of their spiritual experience and told him about the course of action they carried out.
Pg.158: "...I've prayed to God on hangover mornings and sworn that I'd never touch another drop but by nine o'clock I'd be boiled as an owl."
Pg.158: "Maybe you're right," he said. "God ought to be able to do anything."
Pg.158: On the third day the lawyer gave his life to the care and direction of his Creator, and said he was perfectly willing to do anything necessary.
Pg.158: He had begun to have a spiritual experience.
Pg.158: But he had found God - and in finding God had found himself.
Pg.161: They had visioned the Great Reality - their loving and All Powerful Creator.
Pg.162: Being wrecked in the same vessel, being restored and united under one God, with hearts and minds attuned to the welfare of others, the things which matter so much to some people no longer signify much to them.
Pg.162: Many of us have felt, for the first time, the Presence and Power of God within its walls.
Pg.163: You forget that you have just now tapped a source of power so much greater than yourself.
Pg.164: God will determine that, so you must remember that your real reliance is always upon Him.
Pg.164: He will show you how to create the fellowship you crave.
Pg.164: God will constantly disclose more to you and to us.
Pg.164: Ask Him in your morning meditation what you can do each day for the man who is still sick.
Pg.164: See to it that your relationship with Him is right, and great events will come to pass for you and countless others. This is the Great Fact for us.
Pg.164: Abandon yourself to God as you understand God.
Pg.164: Admit your faults to Him and to your fellows.
Pg.164: We shall be with you in the Fellowship of the Spirit, and you will surely meet some of us as you trudge the Road of Happy Destiny.

Quoted from Version 1 of the Big Book not subject to copyright.

AnvilheadII

the secular 12 steps simply remove the term God or Higher Power. they do still use the terms spiritual and spirituality.

similarly, the 12 steps have been adapted to a great many other purposes and afflictions, switching terminology and problem as needed.

tomsteve

from the rules of this forum:
12 Step Programs are off topic for this forum and posts discussing 12 Step Programs will be removed. Please use the Secular 12 Step Forum for positive topics on Secular 12 Step Recovery.

wow...just wow.

Fusion

I was illustrating the fact that AA shouldn’t be a forum in Secular Connections, and should be considered for removal to Alcoholism AA Forum, as you well know, so there’s no wow sensationalism required.

tomsteve

tatsy, i hope you decide to stop trying to control what people say and do.
it very well could be that the mods going after you yet allowing other posts could very well have a message in itself.

Fusion

What does the ‘Mods going after me’ mean? That’s in the past. Are you threatening me and reporting me, once again! That’s such a sad way to defend AA. Can’t you just accept that some people secure a successful, joyous alcohol free life, without AA, and leave it be; without trying to shout me down and expell me, because I didn’t recover through AA?
.

Fusion

I’m tired of this bullying by AA members in Secular, can someone please report it, because it’s late and I’m going to bed, to wake up with a wholesome alcohol-free life to live, free, without burden and conditions. Oh my, this all spiralled down after an AAer started posting here in Secular.

tomsteve

you may report my replies to the mods. i am ok with them making the decision.
tatsy, i have NEVER said i dont accept people get sober without AA. in FACT, if you read around, you will read 100% the opposite.i have said many,many times im glad people get sober no matter how. i have said many times there are other programs.
you are the one dragging AA in here,tatsy. not me.
the mods going after you is in reference to your own reply earlier.
. For that, I’ve received time-outs and threats of permanent expulsion from SR

Fusion

TomSteve, have you read your AA tagline, and your earlier post, referring Secular members to the opinion of Dr. Silkworth in the 1930s (as cited in the AA Big Book, which was founded upon his opinion regarding alcohol allergy/craving/spirituality/religious conversion). It was you that brought AA through the doors of Secular Connections, for the first time since I became a member in February 2016.

AnvilheadII

I was illustrating the fact that AA shouldn’t be a forum in Secular Connection

AA is not in the secular section. SECULAR 12 steps are......but as mentioned earlier, they have been tailored FOR the secular minded. i think there is only one poster who has repeatedly mentioned AA, including one REALLLLLY long post quoting directly FROM the Big Book of AA and it wasn't an AA'r..............

tomsteve

yup, ive read my tagline.im really lost on where the problem is with that.
yup, i made mention of doc silkworth.
there are some excellent studies outon the www. you may want to look up william silkworth. he had some pretty good observations. he worked with or talked to 40,000 drunks in his day.

im lost on where the problem is with that. im not sure if youre aware, but doc silkworth wrote quite a bit more than what youre referring to that had no reference to anything spiritual or religious- he wrote quite a bit about how alcohol effects a person.period.

or how any of that is bringing AA in here.

not sure youre aware,tatsy, but theres also a rule about posting content of PM's.
just a little heads up iffen ya want to post PM stuff again.

i sure hope one of the AVRT members can work with ya on this deep seeded resentment you seem to have aimed my way.

ru12

MG,

Thanks for trying to create and maintain a place for non AA people to post. I guess it must be too much to ask from some to let others have one small space on this entire forum not devoted to AA.

And now some of the seculars are fighting with other seculars and the AA people that are posting in the secular section.

This is sad.

RecklessEric

Seriously folks- have a read over this thread.
It's almost funny.
I really like Secular Connections and the intelligent debates/discussions we have here.

However, I'm not sure I'd have hung around for too long if I'd come across the level of proselytising on display here.

tomsteve

there is absolutly no rule that say AA members cant post here,ru.
the interfighting between secular members is nothing new either.
heres one of many i recall over the years

https://www.soberrecovery.com/forums...an-nature.html (Dr. Silkworth on Alcoholics and Human Nature)

happens in every organization.

RecklessEric

Why would an AA member want to post here?
Genuine question.

Morning Glory

You guys have done a great job of self moderating this forum for many years.
I should have knocked on wood when I said we don't have any problems.

You really can't compare the moderation of different forums. We all try to go by the rules, but we do things a little differently and the forums also each have a different climate. I wrote most of the rules and usually added them as we needed them. There were very few when we first started.

I leave reported posts if I don't feel they've crossed the line. I don't like micromanaging and censorship so I leave as much as I can. Having a different opinion does not necessarily qualify as bashing. I try to stay neutral and that's not hard for me because I'm not defending anything and don't have a dog in this fight. I did leave posts in this thread that are against the rules. I am doing that so you can get your point of view across and I can see what's going on.

Sometimes the mods don't agree with me and sometimes think I should act when I don't, but I like to try to steer things another way if possible rather than use a strong arm.

I still don't know how to fix this. I'm thinking. The easy thing to do would be to ignore something you don't like, but that doesn't usually work.

daredevil

I derive benefit from AA & SMART (& I appreciate AVRT).
They're not mutually exclusive.

andyh

we clearly need to take two-page breaks in contentious threads to talk about bacon, like in the old days