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Old 04-06-2018, 05:11 AM
  # 41 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Morning Glory View Post
With all due respect, our AVRT members have had to demonstrate a lot of restraint to adhere to the forum rules.
They pretty much have had to leave a big part of their method at the door.
is that the bit that says "don't participate in recovery groups"?
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Old 04-06-2018, 05:18 AM
  # 42 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by freshstart57
In my journey, identifying AV was essential, but only when it concerned my own thoughts. Identifying AV in the thoughts of others didn’t do squat for my sobriety, especially if it was pointed out to them.
Originally Posted by Morning Glory View Post
In teaching AVRT Trimpey has commented on one reason why he has had groups of people attend his “AVRT The Class” - students can learn from observing someone else learning AVRT.

I think it’s called observational learning and is a fairly standard positive expectation from teaching in classrooms, kindergarten through college. I’m sorry to hear it doesn’t work for you freshstart57 in learning AVRT. And I’m sure you’re not alone, which is why I guess MG is thanking you for your strong input.

I really like that SR keeps all its archives public so those who like observational learning can read old threads.

The AV is often “pointed out to them” because the student can then deduce on their own “why” it is AV. or the “why” can be pointed out to them as well. Algorithm is great at this.

AVRT is essentially a filtering process. If someone had fishnet with too big holes in it, it is a lot easier to show them the holes than tell them “You’ve got holes in your net but I’ll help you find them without actually telling you where they are.” They can then learn how the holes got there.

If someone believes their fishnet has no too big holes in it, and AVRT is part of the conversation, then discussing the whether a part of the netting is going to let something get through is certainly not an attack upon the whole net. It’s just shining a light on the hole in the net. Not even altering the net. Just recognizing something. And it’s only in the context of AVRT.

Also, AVRT doesn’t even use the concept of “sobriety”. It uses “abstained” or “common teetotaler”, so, yes, AVRT is not supposed to do (put in what you like) for your sobriety. Yes, misinterpretation of words and definitions can produce some confusion, but we are adults within a well structured forum.

MG, I really appreciate how you have to wade through all the feedback and come up with an answer for the future along with all your detailed site statistics, mission, and administrative responsibilities. All that said, I am neutral upon alterations in the forum structure and wish you and all the rest of the staff the very best.
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Old 04-06-2018, 05:39 AM
  # 43 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by GerandTwine View Post
The AV is often “pointed out to them” because the student can then deduce on their own “why” it is AV. or the “why” can be pointed out to them as well. Algorithm is great at this.
And this is the problem in a nutshell. There is no acknowledgement here that the student may reject this interpretion and want to take responsibility for their own voice.
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Old 04-06-2018, 05:39 AM
  # 44 (permalink)  
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The majority of respondents mention AVRT, but I’ll reply separately on that subject.

On the issue of sub-forum and location: I believe it would be beneficial to relocate the “Secular 12 Step Recovery” forum to a new sub-forum of the existing “Alcoholism -12 Step Recovery”, which is currently under the “Alcoholism Information Forum” banner.
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Old 04-06-2018, 06:01 AM
  # 45 (permalink)  
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I take everything I read about AVRT with a grain of salt because 'true' AVRT adherents don't give expositions on AVRT on recovery-related websites.
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Old 04-06-2018, 06:14 AM
  # 46 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by AlericB View Post
Originally Posted by GerandTwine View Post
The AV is often “pointed out to them” because the student can then deduce on their own “why” it is AV. or the “why” can be pointed out to them as well. Algorithm is great at this.
And this is the problem in a nutshell. There is no acknowledgement here that the student may reject this interpretion and want to take responsibility for their own voice.
This is good news.

Then all we have to do is have a footnote link in all AVRT related posts to a statement that says: It is incorrect to conclude that you are not responsible for your Addictive Voice. You are just as responsible as if you were not using this simple filtering Technique. You are also completely free to not practice the simple filtering technique of AVRT at any time, or choose not to practice AVRT at all.
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Old 04-06-2018, 06:20 AM
  # 47 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by daredevil View Post
I take everything I read about AVRT with a grain of salt because 'true' AVRT adherents don't give expositions on AVRT on recovery-related websites.
I discovered AVRT here in Secular Connections. As I learnt AVRT I was taught the ideology by fellow AVRT practitioners. I remain on this site in the hope that I can pay that good deed forward, and assist someone else’s learning curve. To be clear, I longer require SR, it is not a support group for me.

Sadly, this seems increasingly unlikely, with the deluge of anti-AVRT posts. I feel that my way of stopping drinking has been quite “bashed”; despite which I’ve never reported anyone.

I feel insulted by the contents of some of the above posts. I tried AA and other methods for many years, but they didn’t work, for me. I’m glad they worked for you. But please don’t try to marginalise my method, because as I’ve said before, we’re dealing with peoples lives here.
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Old 04-06-2018, 06:24 AM
  # 48 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Tatsy View Post
But please don’t try to marginalise my method, because as I’ve said before, we’re dealing with peoples lives here.
For the record, I wasn't marginalizing the method. I was alluding to its proponents, and I am not marginalizing them either. I simply said I take what I read with a grain of salt.
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Old 04-06-2018, 06:33 AM
  # 49 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by daredevil View Post
For the record, I wasn't marginalizing the method. I was alluding to its proponents, and I am not marginalizing them either. I simply said I take what I read with a grain of salt.
Daredevil, I’m not sure what you mean by your twice stated, “I take what I read with a grain of salt’ regarding AVRT practitioners posts. So in the light of my earlier post, please could you explain.
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Old 04-06-2018, 07:09 AM
  # 50 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by soberlicious View Post
Again, I'm not sure how one would be able to define that? Can you give me some specific examples of what to say and what not to say? I will need some way of knowing if my posts are acceptable for widespread consumption or if they should be relegated to the contained area.
does what you've written fit the SC guidelines? would you say to the person's face what you've typed? the latter is not necessarily a guarantee

here's an example of what I would consider constructive discussion regarding AVRT:

https://www.soberrecovery.com/forums...ml#post6845471 (Addictive Voice Recognition Technique (AVRT) Discussion — Part 6)

I think it's notable that the poster has ASKED for help with identifying & dealing with their AV.
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Old 04-06-2018, 07:13 AM
  # 51 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by GerandTwine View Post
The AV is often “pointed out to them” because the student can then deduce on their own “why” it is AV. or the “why” can be pointed out to them as well. Algorithm is great at this.
Who is the student and who is the teacher? That seems to be part of the problem, some people seem to consider themselves self-appointed teachers and decide who the students are, and make use of third-party "examples" to make their teaching points. That's not really consistent with polite discourse on a forum involving many different perspectives, and in fact it strikes some as a bit culty.
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Old 04-06-2018, 07:27 AM
  # 52 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by daredevil View Post
I take everything I read about AVRT with a grain of salt because 'true' AVRT adherents don't give expositions on AVRT on recovery-related websites.
Thanks for confirming that you’re “not marginalizing” AVRT practitioners here.

But I’m still curious what makes such an alleged practitioner a ‘false’ practitioner? I thought explaining AVRT on SC was OK.
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Old 04-06-2018, 07:29 AM
  # 53 (permalink)  
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I think it’s called observational learning and is a fairly standard positive expectation from teaching in classrooms, kindergarten through college. I’m sorry to hear it doesn’t work for you freshstart57 in learning AVRT. And I’m sure you’re not alone, which is why I guess MG is thanking you for your strong input.
Did I give the wrong impression? Because I don't feel that's a true statement, GT. Of course I learned from others, and I still do. I am a fan of observational learning, and self discovery too, and I feel the latter is the true learning. It is when the student connects the dots for themselves that the penny truly drops.

If my opinion and help is sought, say in a pm, I will gladly do what I can to share my perspective on AV, and as specifically and precisely as may be needed. I tend to back off open AV identification as I feel that being publicly embarrassed just isn't the most helpful paradigm. That of course is not the intent, but sometimes the result, none the less.

I remember TU talking about an RR forum that was particularly brutal in its manner, as this topic has come up several times in the past. I would suggest that this forum, where we have folks who try to help in a sensitive and self aware manner, is doing a better job.
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Old 04-06-2018, 07:36 AM
  # 54 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by JeffreyAK View Post
Who is the student and who is the teacher? That seems to be part of the problem, some people seem to consider themselves self-appointed teachers and decide who the students are, and make use of third-party "examples" to make their teaching points. That's not really consistent with polite discourse on a forum involving many different perspectives, and in fact it strikes some as a bit culty.
If you feel you've been made a third party example, it's because you routinely join into our discussions only to dispute AVRT and spread misinformation about it. I don't know what motivates you to do this, but if you were looking for a reaction, then you've gotten a few.
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Old 04-06-2018, 07:37 AM
  # 55 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by JeffreyAK View Post
Who is the student and who is the teacher? That seems to be part of the problem, some people seem to consider themselves self-appointed teachers and decide who the students are, and make use of third-party "examples" to make their teaching points. That's not really consistent with polite discourse on a forum involving many different perspectives, and in fact it strikes some as a bit culty.
I think you’ve done a great job at teaching people all about your beliefs regarding addiction recovery. You are teacher and everyone else is a student of what does JeffreyAK believe. Teaching AVRT is actually quite a more narrow and specific activity since AVRT is a simple dissociative filtering technique. (Which you, Jeffrey believe is a bit culty). That’s ok, too. Nothing harmful in pointing out what you believe. But that doesn’t mean I can’t point out what AVRT is.
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Old 04-06-2018, 07:55 AM
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So here we go with the directed personal attacks.
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Old 04-06-2018, 07:56 AM
  # 57 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by freshstart57 View Post
I tend to back off open AV identification as I feel that being publicly embarrassed just isn't the most helpful paradigm. That of course is not the intent, but sometimes the result, none the less.
Thank you, freshstart. Tell me if I’m wrong. Is the above why you said what I was concerned about below?

Originally Posted by freshstart57
In my journey, identifying AV was essential, but only when it concerned my own thoughts. Identifying AV in the thoughts of others didn’t do squat for my sobriety, especially if it was pointed out to them.
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Old 04-06-2018, 08:05 AM
  # 58 (permalink)  
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Ahhhhh. I was unclear after all. What I meant was 'it didn't help me in my sobriety to point out others' AV'.
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Old 04-06-2018, 08:08 AM
  # 59 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by JeffreyAK View Post
So here we go with the directed personal attacks.
Your right, sorry Jeffrey,

Here’s what I should have posted. Please accept my apologies.

I think some have done a great job at teaching people all about their beliefs regarding addiction recovery. They are teachers and everyone else is a student of what they believe. Teaching AVRT is actually quite a more narrow and specific activity since AVRT is a simple dissociative filtering technique. (Which some may have negative beliefs about). That’s ok, too. Nothing harmful in pointing out what someone believes. But that doesn’t mean I can’t point out what AVRT is.

My purpose was to focus on the teacher student conundrum.
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Old 04-06-2018, 08:35 AM
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GT,

Do you accept that it was inappropriate behaviour to continue to criticise other people's views on a thread entitled "The Freedom Model" purely on the basis that they did not square with your own 'interesting' shall we say interpretation of AVRT and after you had been asked by mods. and the OP to desist?

If you believe that is good teaching then I would refer you to TU's courteous and thoughtful posts.
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