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Old 04-06-2018, 08:46 AM
  # 61 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Morning Glory View Post
Sometimes we start having conflict in forums.
That is how this forum began. I noticed you all needed a safe place to post and you were fighting an uphill battle.

Is there a need for another separation? Is there enough division to warrant a solution? Are there enough members on each side of the fence who would participate if we find a solution.

I welcome your input.
I believe there may be enough members on either side of the AVRT/non-AVRT division to merit a separation. That’s not to say the respective members can’t post on the other forum!

If the Secular AA Forum was moved as a sub-forum to 12 Step - Alcoholism Support, then another forum (not sub-forum) could replace it. So following recent discussion on Secular, the focus seems to be upon locus of control. Therefore the two new secular forums could be “internal locus of control” i.e, AVRT, SMART Recovery, The Freedom Model and CBT: and the other forum, secular methods that require external locus of control, i.e, IOP, therapy, as other posters here have followed and recommended.
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Old 04-06-2018, 08:48 AM
  # 62 (permalink)  
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The AV is often “pointed out to them” because the student can then deduce on their own “why” it is AV. or the “why” can be pointed out to them as well.

this is the crux.
yes, lots of potential benefit for pointing out collective or individual AV in those who are "students", those who come to the thread specifically to learn about AVRT.
others who participate in a non-AVRT-specific thread are not "students" nor do they need to be "helped" by having their statements re-interpreted or reframed in a different paradigm.
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Old 04-06-2018, 09:04 AM
  # 63 (permalink)  
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Right now, SR has 1572 people reading the site: 172 registered members and 1400 visiting guests.

Of those 1400 visiting guests, I'd bet that at least half of them either have the mother of all hangovers or are drinking.
Those are people who are in a sad dark hole (been there) and are looking to get out of it.

Whatever is done, I hope that AVRT which is a helpful method will not get buried somewhere where those folks won't be able to access it easily, read about it and maybe at some time join and ask questions.
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Old 04-06-2018, 09:11 AM
  # 64 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by fini View Post
..others who participate in a non-AVRT-specific thread are not "students" nor do they need to be "helped" by having their statements re-interpreted or reframed in a different paradigm.
I think we're all students or teachers in different contexts, that's the point of exchanging ideas and views. It really grated on me in early recovery when someone would play the hierarchy card, you're the student and I'm the teacher because I have more sober time than you. But no one else was in my head, and I needed to blaze my own path, making use of help where available but taking personal responsibility for it. The notion of someone playing teacher and treating other folks as students seems contrary to "internal locus of control", a perspective that is typical of most secular approaches.
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Old 04-06-2018, 09:13 AM
  # 65 (permalink)  
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I would argue that even one's Higher Power involves an internal locus of control and that without a higher self the AV is in control.

All the methods have value and all of them have dogma.
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Old 04-06-2018, 09:19 AM
  # 66 (permalink)  
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Carlotta,

I agree that AVRT is a great method to achieve recovery and would ideally be able to be discussed as part of a wider forum. I have pulled out of several AVRT discussions saying that the reason was that I was concerned that the manner of the discussion was creating a very bad impression of the method to newcomers.

IMO unless the issues identified here have been addressed I can't see how AVRT can be presented in a positive light and the second best option of having a separate AVRT forum so that other models can be safely discussed would be preferable.
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Old 04-06-2018, 09:27 AM
  # 67 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Morning Glory View Post
Is there a need for another separation? Is there enough division to warrant a solution? Are there enough members on each side of the fence who would participate if we find a solution.

.
back to the originally posed questions.
personally?
yes and yes.

i will say,though, there will probably be conflict within the groups just as with every other recovery method.
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Old 04-06-2018, 09:32 AM
  # 68 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by AlericB View Post
Carlotta,

I agree that AVRT is a great method to achieve recovery and would ideally be able to be discussed as part of a wider forum. I have pulled out of several AVRT discussions saying that the reason was that I was concerned that the manner of the discussion was creating a very bad impression of the method to newcomers.

IMO unless the issues identified here have been addressed I can't see how AVRT can be presented in a positive light and the second best option of having a separate AVRT forum so that other models can be safely discussed would be preferable.
I agree. I’m tired of AVRT being attacked here in Secular Connections, such attacks wouldn’t be allowed in the “Alcoholism -12 Step Suport Forum”, so why should it be allowed here in Secular?
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Old 04-06-2018, 09:32 AM
  # 69 (permalink)  
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there is already a long, ongoing thread about AVRT that is now in part SIX........2 recent active threads on the FREEDOM model.....another on CBT.....a sticky devoted to AVRT...........all in a separate from other methods forum. and a Secular 12 step forum for those who blend methods..........it doesn't seem that the forum divisions is the problem here........
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Old 04-06-2018, 09:38 AM
  # 70 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by AnvilheadII View Post
..........it doesn't seem that the forum divisions is the problem here........
as a practical matter, I believe this is correct. There may be conflict within threads, and in the aggregate forum, but there is no inherent conflict in the SC forum (outside of the aforementioned conflict!).

I think keeping AVRT where it is is a good idea.
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Old 04-06-2018, 09:39 AM
  # 71 (permalink)  
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Tatsy,

I did want to say that I read your posts with much more than a grain of salt. I find them incisive and measured.
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Old 04-06-2018, 09:42 AM
  # 72 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by daredevil View Post
Tatsy,

I did want to say that I read your posts with much more than a grain of salt. I find them incisive and measured.
Thank you, Daredevil.
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Old 04-06-2018, 09:59 AM
  # 73 (permalink)  
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I think the root problem is that we all have our own individual path of recovery and if we found that model A helped us it's natural to think it will help others by saying that if they also try model A then they would also experience what we did. But this is not true. Some people will not do well with model A just as some medicines work for some people but not others.

If we could accept that we are not all going to agree because there is no knock down argument in favour of any particular model that is going to convince everyone then we could discuss things more respectfully than we have been doing recently.
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Old 04-06-2018, 10:06 AM
  # 74 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by biminiblue View Post
I would argue that even one's Higher Power involves an internal locus of control.
Just for the record, I already made that argument in permalink #244 of the TFM Part 2 thread on 4/1/18.

So as to avoid any conflict;-)
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Old 04-06-2018, 10:09 AM
  # 75 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Tatsy View Post
I agree. I’m tired of AVRT being attacked here in Secular Connections, such attacks wouldn’t be allowed in the “Alcoholism -12 Step Suport Forum”, so why should it be allowed here in Secular?
oooooh, the 12 steps have been bashed,ridiculed,criticized, and attacked in every forum here on this site and the posts have been allowed. not ALL of them have been allowed, but quite a few have. differences of opinions are going to happen.

a very simple solution for it,though:
if you see a post you dont like report it. the mods do a phenominal job of removing what goes against the rules.
and that ignore feature.
just like what has to occur in every other forum when the problem arises.

trying to make a forum where criticism wont occur= not possible.
even amongst the members of ANY certain recovery program there will be conflict and criticism.
which had been proven in this thread alone.
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Old 04-06-2018, 10:24 AM
  # 76 (permalink)  
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I think being a student should be voluntary.
Not everyone is a student. I think you can tell by the questions they are asking and the interests they are expressing.

Maybe asking before teaching. Many can pick things up by just reading your own experience if they aren't yet interested.
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Old 04-06-2018, 10:26 AM
  # 77 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by AlericB View Post
GT,

Do you accept that it was inappropriate behaviour to continue to criticise other people's views on a thread entitled "The Freedom Model" purely on the basis that they did not square with your own 'interesting' shall we say interpretation of AVRT and after you had been asked by mods. and the OP to desist?

If you believe that is good teaching then I would refer you to TU's courteous and thoughtful posts.
Hi Aleric,

Thanks for asking.

First, I believe it is important to restate that, for decades, I’ve had a great interest in the history of addiction recovery in the U.S. with a particular interest upon the Pledge of Abstinence, as anyone who takes a quick view of my blog entry subject lines will see.

The fact that within Jack Trimpey’s discoveries that he calls “the lore of independent recovery from substance addiction in a brief educational format” he happens to make use of that pledge is coincident to my interest. My interest began when I made the pledge years before Trimpey wrote “The Small Book”.

So, when I express an interest in a recovery program’s relationship to that pledge, I do understand how someone unfamiliar with the 200 year old history of the pledge in the U.S. could mistakenly think I’m fixated on Jack Trimpey’s discoveries. Not so. I guess it’s kind of like Soberlicious liked Buddhism way before knowing of Trimpey’s discoveries.

I made 18 posts on your thread. Only four of them had exclusively to do with AVRT and all were in response to other people’s specific AVRT references. Three on 3/19, and the last one on 3/21, just before Steve joined the discussion. All the rest of my posts had to do with my interest with the Pledge of Abstinence in recovery programming or something else not exclusive to Trimpey’s discoveries.

So, you can see, from my point of view, why I might not want to accept guilt (of breaking SR rules) by association.
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Old 04-06-2018, 10:35 AM
  # 78 (permalink)  
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This is like an Irish left-wing group- the first thing on the agenda is the split.

Can we just give permission to call people out for breaking the rules?
This passive-aggressive dance that's happening could go on forever.
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Old 04-06-2018, 10:55 AM
  # 79 (permalink)  
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I second that as a practical proposal that's worth trying.

The rules for SC are here: https://www.soberrecovery.com/forums...7-welcome.html (Welcome)

And perhaps with the convention of citing the relevant rule(s) e.g:

"Respectful disagreements are disagreements that still allow the other person their own opinion. Discussions are showing an interest in understanding why another feels a certain way."
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Old 04-06-2018, 11:00 AM
  # 80 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by RecklessEric View Post

Can we just give permission to call people out for breaking the rules?
This passive-aggressive dance that's happening could go on forever.
and there ya go speaking with the voice of reason.

idk,though,eric- calling people out for breaking the rules could very well start a whole plethora of long threads of bickering.
THATS never happened on any forum here!
and ive NEVER allowed myself to get involved!

a great rule of life i can forget at times:
dont take myself or life too dammed seriously.

im human-warts and all.
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