Originally Posted by Newatthis34

Hi guys,

I've been re-reading through this thread every day to clarify and try to understand more fully the nuances people have discussed but I'm afraid alot of the differences have gone over my head. Nevertheless it's been really productive for me and hey, I'm still sober! for what it's worth here's where I'm at with AVRT.

AVRT is a dissociation technique whereby the addicted person can learn to recognise and separate the desire to drink with the healthy desire to not drink. Healthy in this case meaning physically beneficial as opposed to the primitive brain's 'healthy' desire to continue a behaviour that results in pleasure. So far I think I've understood that correctly.

Originally Posted by Newatthis

My confusion arises when it comes to the Big Plan. This is something I still have trouble grasping. It seems like you can only know your BP was truly a BP retrospectively, maybe on your death bed or something! It's the notion of only making it once that creates this problem in my understanding.

RobR - your advice to look upon it as a tool seems like a possible way to approach it. But even then I don't get why it can only be made once?

OK, I get that if you make a BP and then drink again (which I did last year) then it wasn't a real BP. How do you square that sequence of events with making a subsequent BP?? Just admit it wasn't a real BP to begin with? Seems like a cop out to me. You could go on ad infinitum with BPs and justify relapses with that excuse.

Originally Posted by RobbyRobot

Hmmm. I can of course create and re-create a BP has often as I want to or need to. There are no conditions or limits on any BP. Stating it can only be done once is itself a condition. BP's have no inherent or attached conditions...

Like any common tool or technique, a BP is what it is for function and design, and is not so peculiar that it needs to be put on a pedestal, under lights, and glorified as a get-it-right-or-go-home kinda experience.

A Big Plan cannot fail. Only wrongly perceived failures can be wrapped around an otherwise sound and true BP. A return to drinking is more likely being successful at drinking again rather then at failing to stay abstinence. This means the BP was superceded by an even bigger plan to succeed at drinking. Its really as simple as that. So yeah. Its not a one shot deal.

The internal struggle is over when the addiction ambivalence is no longer creating the struggle. I never struggled with my Beast itself, except in my imagination. My true real-time struggle was always with my addiction ambivlance -- ie simultaneously wanting to both drink and not drink. My Beast simply had its greatest effect on me while I so struggled. The Beast itself does not, and can not cause ambivalence, it merely takes advantage of it, while it can.

Once ambivalence is over and done, the Beast has suffered a great defeat, and its best days are over, yes, but yet the Beast remains a powerful monster what likes nothing more then to create doubt in ones self about recovery and being recovered.

This doubt can be enough to bring about a return to drinking, when the doubt is not appreciated as original AV. I'm always 100% positive about my recovered status, so my Beast is pretty well sucker-punched, hahaha.

AVRT makes no record of past failures or successes. AVRT always works no matter the history or future of any person practicing AVRT. AVRT is always about the now moment -- and for those in the know of the now, experiencing the now can easily paradoxically last a lifetime and beyond, no problemo.

AVRT is a very personalised experientially developed and learned practice of separation of ourselves from our Beasts/AV. Its more an art then a science, is my experienced opinion.

Originally Posted by Newatthis

AVRT appeals to me because a. I'm not religious b. I like things to make sense logically c. I believe in self-efficacy and d. I like immediate results!! The thought of a lifetime of meetings and resentment around alcohol seems like a poor trade-off for forgoing something that has been such a huge part of my life. Doesn't sound like freedom to me. With AVRT the power is returned to the addict, it's my choice to not drink. No one is imposing this on me. Suddenly I sense the possibility of freedom!

To me the risk of returning to alcohol will come when I start to lose concentration on what I'm doing and why I'm doing it. For me personally mindfulness comes into play here, I will have to remind myself from time to time. It's like anything in life I guess, sometimes you gotta force yourself to do the healthy thing. After I finish on SR in a while I will go for a run. Sure I'd prefer to crash on the couch and watch a movie, but after my run I will be glad I did that rather than the other! Overall a part of me believes quitting alcohol or any other addiction is about facing up to my responsibilities as an adult. Life cannot be one long party.

I feel happy. I am still hearing my AV every couple of days but so far so good. I'm going on vacation in a week and I think the reason it's been relatively easy thus far is because in the back of my mind there is the Beast biding its time.

It's hard not to get fixated on the terms/semantics of the language of AVRT, I think this has been the crux of my issue with the BP. I studied philosophy in college so maybe it's me! So I've decided to take the pragmatists' point of view and, a la RobR, cherry pick what works!!

Thanks everyone.