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Addictive Voice Recognition Technique (AVRT) Discussion Part 2

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Addictive Voice Recognition Technique (AVRT) Discussion Part 2

Old 10-18-2011, 09:46 AM
  # 181 (permalink)  
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Yes, the beast wants you to think he is an enormously complex entity, SO COMPLEX that nothing can overcome him. Of course, this has been proven to him time and again, so he can hold this belief with confidence.

I like to think of my beast to be such as one of those jungle frogs that is able to inflate their body to such an extent that their imposing, bloated, presence is frightful to ALL comers who might eat him! Or perhaps to the little birdies who can puff up their feathers to appear larger than they are to their predators. Nature is full of those kinds of examples.

My beast is NOT so complex and big after all. He's reduced down to what he is now -- a pathetic, slimy little creature, not so different from a creature such as Gollum. Not so good to turn your back on him, but not to give him more credit (or power) than he deserves.

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Old 10-18-2011, 10:24 AM
  # 182 (permalink)  
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Yeah, it's not complex...it's sneaky...but not complex. I liked the explanation of it as a quadriplegic in the book. It has no motor skills and can only rely on the power of persuasion on it's caretaker. It's essentially powerless unless it successfully talks the "I" into doing something. As long as the "I" knows it's the "it" speaking, all "it" can do is sit there and pout.
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Old 10-20-2011, 11:17 AM
  # 183 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by flyawayfromhere View Post
Yeah, it's not complex...it's sneaky...but not complex. I liked the explanation of it as a quadriplegic in the book. It has no motor skills and can only rely on the power of persuasion on it's caretaker. It's essentially powerless unless it successfully talks the "I" into doing something. As long as the "I" knows it's the "it" speaking, all "it" can do is sit there and pout.
April,

I'm glad you are finally reading the book and getting the hang of AVRT. As I mentioned earlier, though, the only thing that really matters is the following:
What is your plan for your future use of alcohol? Are you going to drink again in this lifetime, or are you not?
You can post your answer below, or better yet, keep it a secret because it's nobody's business. If you can't hear your Beast, try shifting back and forth between the following answers and observe your thoughts and feelings.
  1. I will drink all the time, or at least whenever I really feel like it.
  2. I will never drink again, and I will never change my mind.

You should notice that your Beast is very comfortable with answer #1, but will grow very uncomfortable and squirm at answer #2. Likewise, if you've finally had enough, you should be very happy with answer #2, knowing that your problems are over, and very afraid of answer #1. Anything that contradicts answer #2 is your Addictive Voice, the Beast talking, and anything that affirms it is you.
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Old 10-20-2011, 12:05 PM
  # 184 (permalink)  
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My plan for alcohol use...as I have it typed in Adobe Illustrator format and dutifully posted on my refrigerator at home...goes something like this (left out the stuff personal to me, but I'll share because no one really has a clue who I am on here. lol):

"No matter how BAD of a day I have, I will NEVER drink alcohol again and I will NEVER change my mind.

No matter how my Beast speaks to me, I will NEVER drink alcohol again and I will NEVER change my mind.

My Beast believes that it will die without alcohol. It believes it MUST drink, but I will NEVER drink alcohol again.

I have ALL power over my Beast."

Things have been way different the past couple days, I've calmed down about "relapse anxiety." I know my Beast will present itself in different ways throughout time but as long as I can recognize the AV is leading me towards booze, I know it will be my Beast coming back for another attempt to get "its precious" and that in all finality, it has no real power to change my mind unless I allow it to.

At first I had a bit of a struggle with the concept of Beast time and "I never now drink." but think I'm getting a handle on it. When I say "never" I like to think of an imaginary line that goes off into infinity that represents "Beast time". When I say "never drink again," that means there is no marker at all on the imaginary line to denote future alcohol use. But if I were to say, "I can drink after I'm dead." the Beast would still get excited because somewhere on that imaginary line of "Beast time", there is now a marker for alcohol use.

But anyway, with just a couple more chapters left in the book, I'd say anyone who thinks they don't need to read it, should get slapped across the head with it (yep, including myself). lol The second part goes into much more depth and that depth would've helped me out a lot before. Even with the addicto-depressive condition, I was like "Yeah, you drink and take anti-dpressants, you'll never feel better, duh." But the way Trimpey explained it about the Beast getting depressed and confusing the person it was in fact them that's depressed while sober, was very eye opening.
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Old 10-20-2011, 02:16 PM
  # 185 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by flyawayfromhere View Post
My plan for alcohol use...

"No matter how BAD of a day I have, I will NEVER drink alcohol again and I will NEVER change my mind.

No matter how my Beast speaks to me, I will NEVER drink alcohol again and I will NEVER change my mind.

My Beast believes that it will die without alcohol. It believes it MUST drink, but I will NEVER drink alcohol again.

I have ALL power over my Beast."
April,

Congratulations on your Big Plan.

I will recount an experience here, but this in no way implies that you will go through the same thing. I had been drinking every single day for many years, and by the end, I was drinking straight whiskey all day every day for about two years, often without eating. The only time I went eight hours without drinking was when I was passed out and asleep.

For the first three months after I quit, I experienced what felt like physical cravings, almost like they were coming from my bones. I used "Addiction Diction" to distance myself from such cravings, but during that time, the pain was still fresh in my mind, so I had the necessary focus and resolve. Then, at around four months, I thought to myself "Well, it's been a few weeks now without any Beast activity. Finally! What a relief! I thought those cravings would never go away!"

That's when Mr. Beast made an appearance:

AV: "So, it only took three and a half months for the really bad cravings to go away. Maybe you weren't that bad, after all. That Terence T. Gorski guy said alcoholics experience PAWS for up to two years after they quit. If you got better so fast, maybe you were just a hard drinker, and you can have a few now and then, if you're careful."

ME: "WHAT? Not that bad!!??!!? I went from a six figure salary and a top tier university degree to being homeless. STFU, you POS. Never Again."

The Beast is a destroyer, no doubt about it, so just for kicks, I went back and re-read the Rational Recovery book. Like other people, I picked up a few more things that I had missed originally.

Then, at around six months, I felt a nice, calm feeling. I was not particularly ecstatic, since my life still sucked, but the change was nevertheless noticeable. I thought to myself "Yes! You did it! You proved them all wrong and quit for good without more treatment! Imagine what else you can do if you put your mind to it!"

I suspect this is what Trimpey means when he refers to the Abstinence Commitment Effect (ACE).

Again, congratulations on your Big Plan.

Many ACE's to you.
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Old 10-20-2011, 09:04 PM
  # 186 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by flyawayfromhere View Post
But anyway, with just a couple more chapters left in the book, I'd say anyone who thinks they don't need to read it, should get slapped across the head with it (yep, including myself). lol The second part goes into much more depth and that depth would've helped me out a lot before. Even with the addicto-depressive condition, I was like "Yeah, you drink and take anti-dpressants, you'll never feel better, duh." But the way Trimpey explained it about the Beast getting depressed and confusing the person it was in fact them that's depressed while sober, was very eye opening.
This bears repeating, April, and I thank you for stating it. "RR: TNC" is the culmination of a decade's worth of RR experience, and Mr. Trimpey does know what he's talking about. The problem, of course, is that you actually have to read the book, when sober, and sometimes twice, since the Beast can also read, and may prevent you from absorbing it all the first time around. I do hope that Mr. Trimpey someday gets around to updating it, as he has previously promised. There are a few things he left out, and that legacy of information needs to be made available for posterity, IMO.
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Old 10-21-2011, 08:06 PM
  # 187 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by kanamit View Post
I have just finished reading it for a second time and because I read it after reading the couple of threads on here it is much more firmly engrained the second time round. I feel like after the first read the Beast always felt it was up for parole at some point but after the second read it has been denied being released. Ever. No questions asked.
Kanamit,

This is a vast improvement from your post last week:

Originally Posted by kanamit View Post
"Go on, just go downstairs and have a couple of those beers in the fridge. Follow it up with that bottle of wine."

... my AV sometimes makes me think eventually my Beast will get the better of me. And tonight he came quite close.
If you are confident that you will never drink again, you need no longer fear people, places, or things (like your Beast!).
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Old 10-21-2011, 08:37 PM
  # 188 (permalink)  
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Now that I've read the book once, I'll need to read it again. Just like watching a good movie again, you can catch so many more things after you know the plot.
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Old 10-23-2011, 06:30 PM
  # 189 (permalink)  
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Just wanted to post a big thank you to everyone. Made my first full week of not drinking and it's been shockingly easy. I know it's silly to count days and that's not my intent, but I haven't been able to not drink for this long in about 9 months. Crazy how you can go from thinking antabuse is your only hope, to enjoying your first week of practically painless self-recovery. Typing things out and getting your responses carried me to the point of grasping it on my own...I'd give you all a big orgy of hugs if I could.
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Old 10-23-2011, 06:53 PM
  # 190 (permalink)  
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Thanks for your posts Flyaway,

They (along with the responses) have helped me this last week.


AVRT method is amazingly effective,

....and thanks, TU and everyone else posting here.
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Old 10-24-2011, 10:58 AM
  # 191 (permalink)  
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I don't think I can link to it but I was watching one of the few RR videos on YouTube. I'll transcribe verbatim what Jack Trimpey (talking to a self-recovered crack addict) says in one section:

You don't have any disease. You have a functional disorder. You get that panic…an imperative…I must do this.
In RR, what is the semantic difference an alcoholic, an addict, chemical dependency and a functional disorder?

I'll set myself up for a fall here but from what I've picked up in the last few months I'd guess at:

Alcoholic—No such thing in RR

Addict—Someone who continues to drink/use against their own better judgment

Chemical dependency—Having a brain that, due to prolonged use of drugs, *thinks* said drug(s) is/are essential for survival. Therefore, when one is drinking or using, he/she has an insatiable appetite to consume more.

Functional disorder—I'm not sure on this one.

Oh, and if anyone would like to discuss my earlier comment, feel free to do so.

http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/...7-post147.html
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Old 10-24-2011, 11:58 AM
  # 192 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by flyawayfromhere View Post
Just wanted to post a big thank you to everyone. Made my first full week of not drinking and it's been shockingly easy. I know it's silly to count days and that's not my intent, but I haven't been able to not drink for this long in about 9 months. Crazy how you can go from thinking antabuse is your only hope, to enjoying your first week of practically painless self-recovery. Typing things out and getting your responses carried me to the point of grasping it on my own...I'd give you all a big orgy of hugs if I could.
I'll just quote something else you wrote after sending me a nasty-gram. I hope you realize now that it was your Beast, and not you, that took offense to my post, just as it was your Beast that was urging you to go on antabuse instead of quitting. That said, thank yourself, and welcome to the underground.

Originally Posted by flyawayfromhere
Oh, sorry. I took offense when you said that I "needed to put the bottle down long enough" to read the book but I was in a bad place at the time that I typed it and ironically it pissed me off enough to "put the bottle down long enough" to read the book. lol
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Old 10-24-2011, 04:31 PM
  # 193 (permalink)  
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Sorry TU, my Beast really hates you. lol And nasty-grams were pretty standard for me when drunk, telling you that you made a rude assumption was one of the much more polite nasty-grams I've sent in my drunken days.

I can see why what you said would upset my Beast, first you called me out on my drinking (the thing my Beast lives for) and second, you told me I had to be my own miracle and not wait for one, thereby taking away my excuse to keep drinking (that I didn't have any control to stop). I remember feeling like such a victim that weekend. Like, "Oh, woe is me, I'm trapped forever and nothing and no one can help me." Yeah, that's AV at full speed ahead. But between what you and freethinking said, I realized I'm the only one that can help me and there is no need to wait to reach that mystical "rock bottom", everyone is free to get off the roller coaster from hell whenever they so choose. It's a hard thing to do but it's definitely possible.
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Old 10-24-2011, 06:18 PM
  # 194 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by flyawayfromhere View Post
Sorry TU, my Beast really hates you. lol And nasty-grams were pretty standard for me when drunk, telling you that you made a rude assumption was one of the much more polite nasty-grams I've sent in my drunken days.
Oh, it's no bother, and I don't take things personally here, I just thought it was a nice illustration of how we do things with AVRT. Some people read some of my posts and think "Oh, what a BIG MEANIE that TU is!!!" but it's just the nature of the AVRT game. There is a certain requisite back and forth to it in order to get people to recognize their AV, and Beasts will get zapped and instinctively lash out. C'est la vie.

BTW, you forgot that I also called you out on not having read the book.
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Old 10-25-2011, 08:26 AM
  # 195 (permalink)  
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Yep, the not reading the book part also...you seem to have x-ray vision for Beast shenanigans. lol
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Old 10-26-2011, 09:40 AM
  # 196 (permalink)  
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You guys know the part in the book where Trimpey says not to make any major changes in the first few months? That's been eating at me lately. My mind is screaming, "Good Lord you fat person, lose 50 lbs now! You finally kicked the booze out so now you can tackle your other major life obstacle!"

I can't determine if this is just me being impatient or maybe even my AV trying to distract me from priority numero uno. I'm just sort of split on the decision. Half of me is saying, "Calm the hell down and just don't change anything for a while, you've been through enough stress so take a break for a few weeks" and the other half is saying, "Tackle the world!!! ALL of it! And right now!" lol
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Old 10-26-2011, 09:50 AM
  # 197 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by flyawayfromhere View Post
You guys know the part in the book where Trimpey says not to make any major changes in the first few months? That's been eating at me lately. My mind is screaming, "Good Lord you fat person, lose 50 lbs now! You finally kicked the booze out so now you can tackle your other major life obstacle!"
Exercise would be good for you, and not drinking will also help with the weight loss. I believe Trimpey put that in there more as a guideline to caution people against uprooting their entire existence for the sake of recovery. I think he didn't want people believing the "you need to change everything in your life or you will definitely drink again !!!" doomsday prophecies.
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Old 10-26-2011, 10:38 AM
  # 198 (permalink)  
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Ah, I see why this snagged me then. My previous experience seemed to imply that the newly abstinent folks were essentially invalids for the first year and therefore shouldn't change anything so as to avoid emotional upsets that could spur relapse...so no dating, no relationships if you weren't already in one, no sex essentially then if you're not in a relationship, no skipping out on your three meeting a week minimum, no moving to a different city, etc....no wonder I got so depressed. lol

I see how that doesn't apply with AVRT though. It doesn't matter what kind of crazy stuff goes down, no matter what I'm never drinking again and I'm never changing my mind. And that's how it should be, trying to build a life free of upsets in order to avoid relapse is insane. So what if someone dies then? You just drink? lol
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Old 10-26-2011, 10:44 AM
  # 199 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by flyawayfromhere View Post
It doesn't matter what kind of crazy stuff goes down, no matter what I'm never drinking again and I'm never changing my mind. And that's how it should be, trying to build a life free of upsets in order to avoid relapse is insane.
I think you've got it.
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Old 10-26-2011, 12:30 PM
  # 200 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by kanamit View Post
In RR, what is the semantic difference an alcoholic, an addict, chemical dependency and a functional disorder?
I believe that Trimpey is using the term "functional disorder" to refer to a neurosis of sorts, based upon a single error (the addictive mandate) which then organizes all thought process accordingly. This is expounded on more in his paper, "The Triumph of Addiction Recovery in the Breakdown of the Bicameral, Addictive Voice or, Who Killed Julian Jaynes?"

See my previous post on how the AV re-organizes thoughts in such a way in order to fit the addictive mandate:

Functions of the Addictive Voice


Originally Posted by Jack Trimpey

Deep, sensual pleasure can neuter the secondary, moral bimcamerality, causing default to the primal, anti-family bicamerality which supports life in the jungle as well as south of the tracks. The result is a transient, functional disorder characterized by a distinct sense that further self-intoxication is inevitable, i.e., necessary for reasons which are not immediately clear. Significant others usually notice a significant personality change, such as a the development of pre-delinquent attitudes and behaviors in a well adjusted adolescent, or remoteness, secrecy, and irritability by a formerly loving and tolerant spouse. This catastrophic breakdown of moral functioning results from immersion in mind-blowing addictive pleasures.
Excerpted from "The Triumph of Addiction Recovery in the Breakdown of the Bicameral, Addictive Voice or, Who Killed Julian Jaynes?" 2009, Jack Trimpey. All rights reserved.
As for addict, alcoholic, and chemical dependency, it is worth keeping in mind that addiction is a state of ambivalence regarding chemical dependence use which can be known only to the addicted person, so unless someone tells you that they are "an addict" or "an alcoholic," you cannot really know for sure. In general, though, RR discourages such self-labeling, viewing it as detrimental to one's recovery. For the purposes of AVRT, once you are no longer ambivalent about your chemical dependency, having decided one way or the other, you are no longer addicted.

See my post on basic definitions in the first AVRT thread, or refer to the Rational Recovery Dictionary at the end of "RR: TNC":
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