Go Back  SoberRecovery : Alcoholism Drug Addiction Help and Information > Secular Recovery > Secular Connections
Reload this Page >

Addictive Voice Recognition Technique (AVRT) Discussion Part 2

Blogs


Notices

Addictive Voice Recognition Technique (AVRT) Discussion Part 2

Old 11-02-2011, 05:57 AM
  # 261 (permalink)  
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: WI
Posts: 118
Granted, I haven't had a chance to delve into Allen Carr's book yet, but here's the thing that eats at me lately. In "that other largely popular recovery group", I maintained 8 straight months of sobriety and really don't remember the cravings being a problem until the end...with AVRT I've only been able to accumulate 10 days. I still have a lot of issues with "that other largely popular recovery group" but I'm starting to wonder if I'm not the right breed for AVRT. A contract or a Big Plan isn't going to make me not drink. Even when I was a demented 14 year old with an eating disorder I once wrote a contract that if I ate food before the end of the day, I would give my soul to the devil. Granted, that sounds blatantly insane, but I canceled that contract anyway too.

There is some motivating factor beyond a Big Plan that I need...maybe it's the support of a peer group, maybe it's wanting to get healthy, maybe I need to find something to want to be sober for.

I am 26 years old and I know what drinking is doing to me, I know I'm addicted and I know each drink destroys every aspect of my being even more. When I'm ready, which I can't imagine being more than a month from now, I will be back at this but right now I'm just sick of being at work and consumed by problems work related, and then going home and being consumed by problems drinking/non-drinking related...it feels like my life is just a 24/7 battle whether I'm drinking or not.

Upon these findings, I will walk away from this thread because I already know the responses to practically every single sentence I just typed. I appreciate everyone's time spent on me and it was not for "a fake intent to use AVRT", I did want to quit drinking, and I tried and I failed. I will come back and attempt abstinence again when I am ready. But in all reality, I am a stubborn-ass mule that does not move when coerced but only by my own volition.
flyawayfromhere is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to flyawayfromhere For This Useful Post:
newby1961 (11-02-2011)
Old 11-02-2011, 06:32 AM
  # 262 (permalink)  
Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location:    USA                        Recovered with AVRT  (Rational Recovery)  ___________
Posts: 3,680
Originally Posted by flyawayfromhere View Post
In "that other largely popular recovery group", I maintained 8 straight months of sobriety and really don't remember the cravings being a problem until the end...with AVRT I've only been able to accumulate 10 days. I still have a lot of issues with "that other largely popular recovery group" but I'm starting to wonder if I'm not the right breed for AVRT.
The apparent AA/AVRT dichotomy is a false one, based on the idea that one method is better than the other. This idea can lead to all sorts of irrelevant discussion, which only evades the really important question, which is "what is your plan for your future use of alcohol?"

AVRT is not an alternative to AA, it is an alternative to addiction.

Originally Posted by flyawayfromhere View Post
I will come back and attempt abstinence again when I am ready. But in all reality, I am a stubborn-ass mule that does not move when coerced but only by my own volition.
Although I'm inclined to point once again that all self-doubt is likely a product of your own Addictive Voice, you will do what you want to do. Best choices to you.
Terminally Unique is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to Terminally Unique For This Useful Post:
Fusion (04-05-2017)
Old 11-02-2011, 01:55 PM
  # 263 (permalink)  
FT
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,677
Originally Posted by freethinking View Post
Sorry, but sometimes things are not that simple. There is intelligence in terms of knowing how to add, subtract, etc and then there is emotional intelligence that I know only age can bring. I know it's an unpopular opinion but I think it's realistic. But I certainly believe anyone can get this and do it who really wants to stop drinking.
April,

I am quoting freethinking's post because I think it is largely right on in your situation. You are obviously extremely intelligent -- that's not the problem. And I'm not saying you are emotionally immature, but I would agree that it may take some more life experience before you can put the whole alcohol thing into perspective. I drank for probably 15 years before I quit, and during that time I made all the arguments to myself that you are making.

Knowing you "should" stop drinking and being convinced that you want to be a non-drinker are two entirely different things.

I read through some of your posts, and I don't think you are playing any games about trying to decide what to do. But I hear a lot of inner turmoil where all your arguments are the reasons why you should quit.

I'm not sure why it has to be so complicated.

Certainly, some programs set up a structure where you are answerable to others for your sobriety, and the structure helps some people a lot to reach and even to maintain that goal. But you don't sound like someone who likes other people to tell them what to do. I'm not saying programs necessarily do that, but the "guidelines" are strong and to the point.

If you want structure, there you go.

If you want independence, you must first be convinced of your decision to be a non-drinker. Arguing all the should points isn't going to do that. When it becomes more desirable for you to live your life free of alcohol than it is to keep alcohol around as a tool to anesthetize you from the parts of your life that are bothering you -- only then will your plan to stop drinking actually "take".

I know I didn't want to quit drinking, for a very long time. No amount of "shoulds" was going to sway me. Freethinking is right that age can make a difference. But so can maturity, and my sense is that you are almost there. But, right now, you are still not convinced.

I've gotten to like you through your posts. I hope you continue to read even if you don't post. I hope you become convinced, as I did, that alcohol proved to be more of a ball-and-chain to my life than any theoretic advantage it appeared to have before I came to that realization.

Take care.

FT
FT is offline  
The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to FT For This Useful Post:
flyawayfromhere (11-02-2011), freethinking (11-03-2011), onlythetruth (11-02-2011), Terminally Unique (11-02-2011), topspin (11-02-2011)
Old 11-03-2011, 07:05 AM
  # 264 (permalink)  
Poison Eater Extraordinaire
 
freethinking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: East Coast, USA
Posts: 1,031
This may be getting too deep with the concept of "the beast"....but I was wondering if anyone think the beast works subconsciously in our dreams.

This deviates quite a bit from the traditional concept of how the beast works, but for me I have found that as opposed to having a lot of outright thoughts about how a drink would be nice - my beast works in a way where it fills my head with other thoughts that eventually wear me down to a place where I feel so angry or depressed that I get a case of the "f*ck its". That is how I have had to identify the beast in my life, because whenever I am asked to answer to "What happened?" after a relapse following a few months of sobriety, my answer tends to be "I don't know, I had no urges and then bam, one day I said f*ck it and went to the liquor store". This answer never seemed sufficient to me and it took me a few months to realize what was really going on: The beast, in my life, replays past events over and over again in my mind to the point where I get so angry and feel life is so unfair, that I become very susceptible to a "f*ck it" thought (as I like to call them). This has been my pattern of relapsing every time after about 3-4 months of being sober. No urges, nothing....just lots of angry and saddening thoughts for months and then one single idea to drink which is usually acted upon.

OK, if you have made it that far through my psychobabble above, let me say that since I have identified this issue I have been using a little bit of SMART recovery's concepts in disputing the major incorrect/irrational belief that underlies all of these recurring thoughts which is "Life owes me more than what I have gotten". I have been pretty successful at handling these repetitive thoughts (which in essence has decreased their occurence) and have been feeling much happier in the past month or two because of it. However in the past 2 weeks, I keep having dreams about these past events (and really, they are nothing horrific or anything - just rejection type issues with my dad, mom, etc...but they are weird for my age since I am in my 30s and married with 2 small kids) so that when I wake up I feel like crying and it really seems to be effecting my thinking again. I can't control my dreams very much, and I am wondering if anyone out there feels the beast could be sneaky enough to be getting to me through my dreams now? When I have one of these dreams, it is much harder to shake of the "poor me" mentality....which eventually leads me to a drink. It worries me. Is this the beast?
freethinking is offline  
Old 11-03-2011, 10:02 AM
  # 265 (permalink)  
FT
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 3,677
I think your Beast is chewing a hole in the fence. At first you are able to ignore it, but if the hole gets bigger and bigger, that's where the "wham" comes in.

When the sudden urge to drink becomes irresistible, recognize that your Beast has pushed its big fat body all the way through the fence. Almost.

My suggestion would be to prepare a plan for when this happens. When the Beast is bearing down on you, hot breath on your neck, have a concrete plan of action. Mine is to recover my "mantra" that I am a non-drinker. Period. End of story. I do what non-drinkers do. Period.

Bad day? Have a plan for what you do to feel better that does not involve drinking. Recognize your weak places, your most sensitive triggers. I can't tell you what to do to keep the "fence" strong and in repair. Imagery helps me, but not everyone.

Ideas?

FT
FT is offline  
Old 11-03-2011, 12:59 PM
  # 266 (permalink)  
Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location:    USA                        Recovered with AVRT  (Rational Recovery)  ___________
Posts: 3,680
freethinking,

I don't think that your Beast is the one injecting those dreams, since the only thing IT can dream of is more alcohol, but your Addictive Voice is certainly working overtime to use those dreams as a justification for drinking. Firstly, I would suggest that you stop calling your binges relapses. This is semantics, yes, but the word "relapse" implies that binges "just happen" to you, in much the same way a cancer relapse might just happen to you. Secondly, your Addictive Voice will conceal the real purpose of drinking, which is not to cope, but to get that nice buzz, that deep pleasure, however short-lived it may be. In other words, to avoid coping with those repetitive thoughts by getting drunk instead.

If certain tools help you to mitigate those thoughts, so much the better, but to make the mitigation of such thoughts a condition of abstinence automatically creates a condition for drunkenness. You are essentially creating a bargain situation, where you will abstain only if you don't feel bad, and giving your Beast an opening large enough for a beer truck to drive through. If you do that, you can rest assured that as soon as the thoughts return, your Beast will chime in and say "see, you quit drinking, and you still have these bad thoughts, so what's the point?"

You are already wise to your Beast's ways, so don't play by your Beast's rules, which will exploit any feelings, good or bad, in order to get its fix. You have previously stated that you didn't want to make a Big Plan, which will make things more difficult. I've stated before that if there is no Big Plan, there is no AVRT, so I strongly recommend that you make one. The question you need to ask yourself is this:
How angry, depressed, or self-pitying am I willing to get and still not drink?
Terminally Unique is offline  
Old 11-03-2011, 01:13 PM
  # 267 (permalink)  
Poison Eater Extraordinaire
 
freethinking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: East Coast, USA
Posts: 1,031
Originally Posted by failedtaper View Post
I think your Beast is chewing a hole in the fence.

FT
Yes, that's kind of how it feels. I feel like I have been blocking it from all different angles and now it's coming at me in my sleep in a way.

Usually, if I am starting to feel myself getting down - I do some pretty unhealthy stuff: buy something new, eat some cake, crawl up in bed and watch some cr*p TV programming. But hey, it gets me through it.
freethinking is offline  
Old 11-03-2011, 01:27 PM
  # 268 (permalink)  
Poison Eater Extraordinaire
 
freethinking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: East Coast, USA
Posts: 1,031
Originally Posted by Terminally Unique View Post
You are already wise to your Beast's ways, so don't play by your Beast's rules, which will exploit any feelings, good or bad, in order to get its fix. You have previously stated that you didn't want to make a Big Plan, which will make things more difficult. I've stated before that if there is no Big Plan, there is no AVRT, so I strongly recommend that you make one.
It's not so much that I won't make a big plan, it's just that I can't. I honestly can't. There's honestly nothing I think I could ever make a big plan about in my life and truly believe, and that's the god's honest truth. However I still believe in AVRT in the sense that I believe it is very important for me to identify the addictive voice and separate that voice from myself. I hate to say this, but I am different from most alcoholics in that I usually never have one single craving and then boom: I am drunk again after months and months of never even wanting a drink. Therefore, I have had to include my addictive voice/beast to not only be the mere thought to drink when I am feeling down (which has not happened yet), but all the angry and piteous thoughts that get me to the state where I even allow that voice to creep in. That's how cunning my addictive voice is: it knows that initially if it tells me (like it did on Halloween) "If you were able to have a drink with the other parents, you'd get that nice warm fuzzy feeling", that I can and will easily shut that down because it is so obviously my addictive voice. So it tries to get to me instead by feeding me these thoughts which perpetually make me angry and pitying of myself. I know that sounds bizarre and like I am stretching it - but I know this to be true for myself and how my addictive voice has it's way with me.

I guess what I was really trying to figure out is if it is possible for the beast/addictive voice to work through dreams - or if these dreams I am having are real issues I need to work through (which I really do not want to do - I absolutely abhor therapy). I am still on the fence.
freethinking is offline  
Old 11-03-2011, 01:35 PM
  # 269 (permalink)  
Poison Eater Extraordinaire
 
freethinking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: East Coast, USA
Posts: 1,031
Originally Posted by Terminally Unique View Post

If certain tools help you to mitigate those thoughts, so much the better, but to make the mitigation of such thoughts a condition of abstinence automatically creates a condition for drunkenness. You are essentially creating a bargain situation, where you will abstain only if you don't feel bad, and giving your Beast an opening large enough for a beer truck to drive through. If you do that, you can rest assured that as soon as the thoughts return, your Beast will chime in and say "see, you quit drinking, and you still have these bad thoughts, so what's the point?"
I totally get where you are coming from with this. However, me being curious as to whether or not these dreams are the beast (or not) is not because I want to shut them down so that I do not drink, but because as soon as I identified those conscious thoughts that I used to have (I mentioned them above) as ways in which the beast/av has gotten to me - they more or less stopped. I am fairly certain that nothing could make me ever drink again - so I am not worried about these dreams in the sense that I am afraid if they keep occurring that I will drink: I am truly and honestly trying to understand why they are occurring: Is it my sneaky beast again trying to wear me down? Or are these separate issues I need to work through? Because I have already played them out in therapy to death and quite honestly they are irrelevant to my current life and I want them gone (there has been no sexual abuse in my past, no physical abuse - these issues are not so major that they should still be coming up like this at this point in my life). If I understood why they were happening , then I could properly address them I guess. One of my theories is that they were part of the beast's way of trying to wear me down again...because other than that, I cannot for the life of me fathom what purpose they serve. As I stated before, when I was consciously thinking about all this past stuff every day and then recognized these repetitive thoughts as ways in which the beast was trying to wear me down, they more or less stopped one day.
freethinking is offline  
Old 11-03-2011, 01:53 PM
  # 270 (permalink)  
Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location:    USA                        Recovered with AVRT  (Rational Recovery)  ___________
Posts: 3,680
Originally Posted by freethinking View Post
I guess what I was really trying to figure out is if it is possible for the beast/addictive voice to work through dreams - or if these dreams I am having are real issues I need to work through (which I really do not want to do - I absolutely abhor therapy). I am still on the fence.
In a way, AVRT will purge the Addictive Voice from consciousness, so it does often come up in dreams, when you are off duty. In other words, you will probably have dreams authored by the Beast. However, the Beast has effectively retreated, since you can't possibly drink while asleep. Upon awakening, the Beast may try to inject all manner of self-doubt, as if the dreams where a bad omen, a sign of imminent relapse. Just recognize such dreams as a clear sign of victory, a sign that the Beast is finished, and move on. As for therapy and other issues, that is entirely up to you, and outside the scope of AVRT.
Terminally Unique is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to Terminally Unique For This Useful Post:
Fusion (04-05-2017)
Old 11-03-2011, 02:40 PM
  # 271 (permalink)  
Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location:    USA                        Recovered with AVRT  (Rational Recovery)  ___________
Posts: 3,680
Originally Posted by freethinking View Post
It's not so much that I won't make a big plan, it's just that I can't. I honestly can't. There's honestly nothing I think I could ever make a big plan about in my life and truly believe, and that's the god's honest truth.
On further thought, although I believe that using AVRT between binges is a losing proposition, I am probably off base in trying to convince you to make a Big Plan. That decision cannot be forced, and must come from within, by your own choice.
Terminally Unique is offline  
Old 11-03-2011, 03:44 PM
  # 272 (permalink)  
Poison Eater Extraordinaire
 
freethinking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: East Coast, USA
Posts: 1,031
Originally Posted by Terminally Unique View Post
On further thought, although I believe that using AVRT between binges is a losing proposition, I am probably off base in trying to convince you to make a Big Plan. That decision cannot be forced, and must come from within, by your own choice.
Not at all sure what you mean about between binges.
freethinking is offline  
Old 11-03-2011, 04:04 PM
  # 273 (permalink)  
Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location:    USA                        Recovered with AVRT  (Rational Recovery)  ___________
Posts: 3,680
Originally Posted by freethinking View Post
Not at all sure what you mean about between binges.
You stated clearly that you don't believe that you can decide never to drink again, which necessarily implies that you believe that you may drink again.
Terminally Unique is offline  
Old 11-03-2011, 04:24 PM
  # 274 (permalink)  
Poison Eater Extraordinaire
 
freethinking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: East Coast, USA
Posts: 1,031
Not sure if you're trying to goad me into an argument or what, but just because I do not feel like making or stating a "big plan" and do not embrace all of AVRT does not mean I am going to drink again or am "between binges". As you can see for yourself, there are plenty of people here who got sober without AVRT as laid about by Trimpey (and in essence without declaring a Big Plan), but more or less employ his techniques and have remained sober. Saying I do not want to make/declare a big plan is simply not the same as stating I am between binges, sorry. I'll be honest with you, your persistence on this issue and your inability to wrap your mind around that fact kind of makes you seem like the people in another program who do not believe you can stay sober without that program. Different strokes for different folks. We're not all made the same, and we don't all recover the same.
freethinking is offline  
Old 11-03-2011, 05:42 PM
  # 275 (permalink)  
Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location:    USA                        Recovered with AVRT  (Rational Recovery)  ___________
Posts: 3,680
Originally Posted by freethinking View Post
Not sure if you're trying to goad me into an argument or what, but just because I do not feel like making or stating a "big plan" and do not embrace all of AVRT does not mean I am going to drink again or am "between binges".
No, I am not trying to goad you into an argument. You can, should, and probably will, do as you see fit, and you are correct in that only you can know whether or not you will drink again.

Originally Posted by freethinking View Post
I'll be honest with you, your persistence on this issue and your inability to wrap your mind around that fact kind of makes you seem like the people in another program who do not believe you can stay sober without that program.
That does not bother me, although I have stated on multiple posts that most people quit entirely on their own, without any program, education, or training, including AVRT. This is, however, an AVRT thread, and the "Big Plan" is a key component of AVRT.
Terminally Unique is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to Terminally Unique For This Useful Post:
lostbutterfly (11-21-2011)
Old 11-03-2011, 05:50 PM
  # 276 (permalink)  
Poison Eater Extraordinaire
 
freethinking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: East Coast, USA
Posts: 1,031
Originally Posted by Terminally Unique View Post
That does not bother me, although I have stated on multiple posts that most people quit entirely on their own, without any program, education, or training, including AVRT. This is, however, an AVRT thread, and the "Big Plan" is a key component of AVRT.
Right, I know this is an AVRT thread and my question (that your comment stemmed from) had to do with AVRT and its concept of "the beast". You are the one who decided to imply that because I do not have a big plan (which I mentioned months ago), I am therefore "between binges". The above argument would apply if *I* kept coming into this thread proclaiming how I do not have a "Big Plan"...but you are the one who always brings it up even when I have not.

Personally, I think you were being argumentative in your own way by trying to equate my lack of a "big plan" with me being "between binges". That is a faaaaar stretch, my friend. However you do not seem like the type who would ever admit to being irked on here or moreover even being wrong, so I'll accept that fact and move on....especially since other parts of this thread have been very helpful to me and others.

~"Freethinking"
freethinking is offline  
Old 11-03-2011, 07:16 PM
  # 277 (permalink)  
Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location:    USA                        Recovered with AVRT  (Rational Recovery)  ___________
Posts: 3,680
Originally Posted by freethinking View Post
Personally, I think you were being argumentative in your own way by trying to equate my lack of a "big plan" with me being "between binges". That is a faaaaar stretch, my friend. However you do not seem like the type who would ever admit to being irked on here or moreover even being wrong, so I'll accept that fact and move on....
That is a peculiar thing to say after I stated that I was off base for trying to convince you to make a Big Plan, as is the suggestion that my intent was malicious. You are obviously concerned about drinking again, and I was actually trying to help you. There are no victims here, nor messiahs, though, and you are welcome to dismiss my take on things. As always, trust your own instincts over the advice of anonymous people on the Internet, including my own. You may, however, want to consider who is really irked at my take on the necessity of a Big Plan. Is it you, or is it your Beast?
Terminally Unique is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to Terminally Unique For This Useful Post:
Runhappy (11-04-2011)
Old 11-03-2011, 07:27 PM
  # 278 (permalink)  
Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location:    USA                        Recovered with AVRT  (Rational Recovery)  ___________
Posts: 3,680
"Never say never to the possible future use of alcohol or drugs."

                        — The Beast
Terminally Unique is offline  
The Following User Says Thank You to Terminally Unique For This Useful Post:
Kaily (04-17-2017)
Old 11-03-2011, 07:31 PM
  # 279 (permalink)  
Poison Eater Extraordinaire
 
freethinking's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: East Coast, USA
Posts: 1,031
I'm going to entertain this one last time in the hopes that you are really not understanding why what you wrote was offensive and even somewhat arrogant: it does not come across as you genuinely stating you were off base for bringing up and pushing the "big plan" issue again with me (which is what you just stated you did, which to me is irrelevant anyway) when you end that very sentence with an inference that the reason you should not have pushed it is because I am in between binges. Who decides I am in between binges right now? You? Trimpey? Bill W.? That is what I took issue with, not you pushing a big plan. The big plan is really irrelevant to me and my philosophy on life, but I am glad it works for others. Regardless, I do not even care that you tried to push the Big Plan. I get that you like it and use it.

I am not irked in the slightest about you pushing a Big Plan - I see you subsrcibe to AVRT wholly and it has kept you sober. When you have brought it up before with me, I have never taken offense - I only got annoyed (today) by the arrogance behind the implication that because I do not have any desire to make some "big plan" that I am therefore "in between binges". I think you get irked when people do not buy all of AVRT hook, line and sinker (I have picked up on this before) and I think that is where the passive-aggressive comment came from - but I don't think you are willing to own up to that.

And again, you brought up me not having a Big Plan today. I didn't even mention it. I just asked a question about how the addictive voice can work.
freethinking is offline  
Old 11-03-2011, 08:14 PM
  # 280 (permalink)  
Administrator
 
Morning Glory's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: CA
Posts: 10,657
Blog Entries: 2
Maybe it would be helpful to members if you finished this personal discussion through PMs?
Morning Glory is offline  
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Morning Glory For This Useful Post:
cheeto (05-14-2013), Renee65 (11-03-2011), Terminally Unique (11-03-2011)

Currently Active Users Viewing this Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off




All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:59 AM.