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Banner day just ended even worse...

Old 03-17-2016, 07:44 PM
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Banner day just ended even worse...

I just spent the evening with the man I have been seeing for a while and literally in the course of 3 hours he just raised a NUMBER of red flags for me and I just asked him to leave and said I need time to think about things...

#1... three times about three different individuals he used phrases like "I know this person had x, y, z ulterior motive for asking me to do x, y, z"

#2... told ME after seeing that I was thinking about something he had said and was NOT responding instantly with a "it's fine" response, the following: "I can tell you are perceiving what I said the wrong way and my intention was ...."

I kept my cool and just calmly said that I was not a fan of being told what I was thinking/feeling by others and said that I thought it best that he go for the evening.

He then decided it was time to talk and explain to me how I was still not perceiving things correctly...

Lines used were:

"I guess if you're going to word smith and not give me the benefit of the doubt...."

"I am a good person and you misunderstood my intentions..."

"If you're going to tell me Im being a terrible person just because I did not use the perfect choice of words, then..."

Honestly I am beyond mad. At myself.

How did I miss red flags prior to this with this jacka$$?!?

Those lines are all things xAH would say back long before things got horrible with us, to justify his nonsense...

I literally have ZERO tolerance for being told that someone else knows better than I what I am thinking and feeling.

It is controlling, manipulative BS in my estimation.

But rather than go off about this, I just nicely ended the evening and said I needed time to think and we could talk later.

Am I totally off base to find those sorts of remarks off putting? Are they as controlling as they feel to me or am I unfairly attributing xAH's use of those phrases to someone who may be using them more innocuously... Maybe he's just stupid and thinks that's a reasonable way to view the world...

Im really upset and doubting my reaction to this and just needed to vent...

Thanks for listening.
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Old 03-17-2016, 08:49 PM
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I think your reaction to it matters. I'm not sure, though, that statements like that are necessarily "red flags"--some people just fancy themselves extremely intuitive and think they always know what someone else REALLY means.

Come to think of it, you're sort of doing the same thing, aren't you? Drawing conclusions based on your perceptions?

I'm not saying you're wrong, and even if it's mean innocuously, if it drives you crazy that's legitimate.

Maybe a break to think about how you feel about him and about your relationship with him wouldn't be a bad idea...
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Old 03-17-2016, 08:57 PM
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Yeah, a break for sure is needed....

I am surprised by my reaction I guess-- but xAH would FOREVER tell me he "knew" how I felt and then would use that rationale to justify his hateful behavior, including abuse, toward me...

So I guess that is just a MASSIVE trigger for me and I can't wrap my head around any way in which I think saying that is healthy or normal...

But maybe it is... And maybe I am in the wrong here... Idk...

Im just really wound up internally and those sort of remarks just threw me for a major loop and I don't understand why exactly....
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Old 03-17-2016, 08:59 PM
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Honestly? I don't see those as huge red flags. Maybe he genuinely got his words wrong and you misunderstood. However, after being through what you have been through with your ex, I would understand if you ran far and fast away from this as I'm sure it reminds you of the manipulation, etc that you dealt with day in and day out. I think Lexie is right-your reaction matters most. You didn't scream and freak and kick him out-you nicely asked him to leave and that you needed to think. I always like to use stuff like this as a learning time to pray and see if Gods telling me there are things I obviously carry with me (scars, etc) that I need to work on and get past OR if God is trying to close this door. I don't know the answer but that old annoying phrase is so true, even now: more will be revealed. (Ugh-and I know you hate that one!!!)

Much love , friend.
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Old 03-17-2016, 09:01 PM
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Just a thought, but, maybe you aren't ready to seriously date yet. I know after I went through a horrific divorce, I had absolutely no interest in dating anyone for over four years. I know we are all different, but, that is my experience.
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Old 03-17-2016, 09:15 PM
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^ suki-that's what I was thinking. It takes time to get over the abuse and horrific things they did-and this guy just keeps spewing it daily so it may take a lot longer!! I know I have no interest in dating anyone. I'm quite content. Suki, I may break your four years!
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Old 03-17-2016, 09:22 PM
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I agree with waiting to date, in fact, this incident seems like
a red flag for you about why you should not date until you have given
yourself time for healing and emotional balance.

This is a link about boundaries. It's a little long, and I don't agree with
everything, but it is very in depth & helped me understand much better.
Boundaries for Individuals: The Essay | Al Turtle's Relationship Wisdom

Note that he is not talking about dealing with addicts or
alcoholics, in fact, there is no reference to them on his website.
Still, it may be helpful to you
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Old 03-17-2016, 11:43 PM
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Hi WTBH,
My STBXAH used those phrases to manipulate me, so I share your concern about how your friend may perceive himself (and you). I agree with you in never wanting to go back to a situation in which I'm told my feelings are inaccurate, or my responses to various comments amounted to wordsmithing, etc. I think those are ways of judging and subtly putting down the other person's views, feelings, and values. I'm only beginning to understand how and why my STBXAH had the impression that I didn't like to talk about feelings. I didn't feel safe or respected, because he was so critical or downplaying of what I tried to say.

Just my two cents based on my experience, which may or may not be similar. The phrases sure do sound the same, however.
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Old 03-18-2016, 05:41 AM
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I have not dated much at all in the 5+ years of this endless circus since the start to the end of the divorce... and maybe I am not ready...

I doubt though that I will ever be ready to hear phrases that imo are total invalidations of how I feel...

What's red flag ish for me is that rather than his asking me what I was thinking/feeling, he TOLD me he could "tell" what I was thinking/feeling and was seeking for me to reassure him that I was not upset. And in fact I was upset so...

I got a text this morning from him saying that he doesn't set out to ever hurt someone and that he's sorry for his word selection and how I perceived them...

I guess it's possible that that is a sincere apology... But it sounds so much like xAH's excuses to endlessly justify bad behavior and dismiss my feelings, that Im having a hard time not lumping them together...
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Old 03-18-2016, 06:16 AM
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I don't think its an odd thing for someone to make the statement that they "can tell what you are feeling". Body language and facial expression say a lot. Certainly people can mistake, the question is was he wrong about what you were feeling? Did you say "i feel.....", and he responded "No you don't, you feel....."? By your description it sounds like he was on the defensive rather than being on the offensive. Could be wrong...its how it reads.

I don't see red flags here. I see that you two got into it. Happens, and will happen again. He is NOT your husband, but you are judging him by the actions of your Ex which is not fair. Its normal to look out for things in others that are personalities or behaviors that are not ok. As humans we collectively share personality traits that aren't great - perhaps he does share some of these with your ex, it doesn't make him your ex.

Just the other day you wrote a very nice post about this man and how happy you have been. What I am reading is that you want to control the manner in which he speaks....instead of asking you what you felt he told you. We could dissect human language skills all day long, sometimes people make statements instead of questions. Now he has apologized and you are unaccepting of the apology because the "it sounds so much like the AHX's excuses to endlessly justify bad behavior and dismiss my feelings". How so? He said he doesn't mean to hurt you and he is sorry for his word selection, and how your perceived them, what should he have said? Are you going to instruct him on how to apologize to you?

I would advise dropping it for a day a revisiting tomorrow. Clearly he triggered you, I doubt on purpose. Be of clear mind when you make up you decide what this all means. Then move forward with how you want to handle it. Your EX is a horrible, mind abusing person so I get your sensitivity to such matters.
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Old 03-18-2016, 06:34 AM
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Honestly? I think you're still triggering because of ExAH & the interaction you just had with him about the girls. I think this felt so aggressive to you because you're reacting in PTSD mode. JMHO, of course, I could be way off base. (((((Hugs)))))
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Old 03-18-2016, 06:48 AM
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I needed to hear this.... Thank you. I posted about this because I questioned the sanity of my reaction and I think you are spot on....

Originally Posted by redatlanta View Post
I don't think its an odd thing for someone to make the statement that they "can tell what you are feeling". Body language and facial expression say a lot. Certainly people can mistake, the question is was he wrong about what you were feeling? Did you say "i feel.....", and he responded "No you don't, you feel....."? By your description it sounds like he was on the defensive rather than being on the offensive. Could be wrong...its how it reads.

I don't see red flags here. I see that you two got into it. Happens, and will happen again. He is NOT your husband, but you are judging him by the actions of your Ex which is not fair. Its normal to look out for things in others that are personalities or behaviors that are not ok. As humans we collectively share personality traits that aren't great - perhaps he does share some of these with your ex, it doesn't make him your ex.

Just the other day you wrote a very nice post about this man and how happy you have been. What I am reading is that you want to control the manner in which he speaks....instead of asking you what you felt he told you. We could dissect human language skills all day long, sometimes people make statements instead of questions. Now he has apologized and you are unaccepting of the apology because the "it sounds so much like the AHX's excuses to endlessly justify bad behavior and dismiss my feelings". How so? He said he doesn't mean to hurt you and he is sorry for his word selection, and how your perceived them, what should he have said? Are you going to instruct him on how to apologize to you?

I would advise dropping it for a day a revisiting tomorrow. Clearly he triggered you, I doubt on purpose. Be of clear mind when you make up you decide what this all means. Then move forward with how you want to handle it. Your EX is a horrible, mind abusing person so I get your sensitivity to such matters.
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Old 03-18-2016, 07:13 AM
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Hi WTBH,

I have to say I'm a bit with redatlanta on this one. I don't see red flags here. I'm not saying his way of phrasing things shouldn't have been a trigger for you or that it shouldn't have offended you. But I don't think it automaticaly means that he's controlling and manipulative.
It is unfortunately is a fairly normal way of speaking. People often say things like that, especially your first red flag: "I know this person had x, y, z ulterior motive for asking me to do x, y, z". I can't say exactly what he meant by "I know", but to me it reads as "he feels he knows ..."

In general, the use of the "I" statements, and say things like "I feel" are communication tools that people lean in therapy. I've also read somewhere that using "I feel" phrases when stating an opinion is something that women tend to do naturally, and men don't. It's cultural conditionning and what we've been brought up to do.

IMO, the red flag would be if you calmly explained to your gentleman what hurt you in his statements and he kept doing it anyway. He was appologized, it is now up to you to decide what you are going to do about it. But I think it is also your job to tell him what has hurt you and why. He can't know what hurts you if you don't tell him.

Even when they have the best of intentions, people still hurt people without setting out to do so. It think it's once we've told someone about our triggers and they keep pushing those buttons that we can say that they are intentionally hurting us. It becomes a question of trust. Do you trust your gentleman (and yourself) enough to be honest and tell him what has hurt you and why, and trust that once he know, he will do is best not to do it again? You also have to keep in mind that even by telling him, and even is he really has no intention of hurting you again, he might not be successful 100% of the time. We are all human after all. I don't think anybody here can say that they are perfect all the time and that they don't revert to old habits from time to time. It doesn't make us bad people, just human.
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Old 03-18-2016, 07:31 AM
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I really appreciate the feedback.... I hate that I am clearly damaged emotionally by xAH and what throws me is that I do not see it coming until I am in it...

There is not one solitary logical reason for me to have gotten so upset about the choice of words he used-- I could and should have trusted that he was sorry then and there when he said he was.

But instead, I was bound and determined (in my own mind) to convince myself that what I was feeling was totally warranted and that his behavior could not be trusted...

If anything he has gone out of his way to be exceptionally nice and understanding and all Im doing since last night is looking for other proof in the reel of other interactions with him, to support my desire to just shut him out.

This is not who I want to be. Being someone who is intolerant of mistakes and unable to deal with hurt and trust that it won't continue is something extremely alarming that I am seeing in myself today and I did not realize it was in me...

I have been laser focussed on my kids and limited opportunities to be hurt in any way at all for some time-- even with friends-- And I don't really know at this point how to fix this in myself....

I suppose that it is time to see a therapist probably and sort out whether in fact this is a PTSD type reaction I have to things because it sure seems like it...



Originally Posted by Kata View Post
Hi WTBH,

I have to say I'm a bit with redatlanta on this one. I don't see red flags here. I'm not saying his way of phrasing things shouldn't have been a trigger for you or that it shouldn't have offended you. But I don't think it automaticaly means that he's controlling and manipulative.
It is unfortunately is a fairly normal way of speaking. People often say things like that, especially your first red flag: "I know this person had x, y, z ulterior motive for asking me to do x, y, z". I can't say exactly what he meant by "I know", but to me it reads as "he feels he knows ..."

In general, the use of the "I" statements, and say things like "I feel" are communication tools that people lean in therapy. I've also read somewhere that using "I feel" phrases when stating an opinion is something that women tend to do naturally, and men don't. It's cultural conditionning and what we've been brought up to do.

IMO, the red flag would be if you calmly explained to your gentleman what hurt you in his statements and he kept doing it anyway. He was appologized, it is now up to you to decide what you are going to do about it. But I think it is also your job to tell him what has hurt you and why. He can't know what hurts you if you don't tell him.

Even when they have the best of intentions, people still hurt people without setting out to do so. It think it's once we've told someone about our triggers and they keep pushing those buttons that we can say that they are intentionally hurting us. It becomes a question of trust. Do you trust your gentleman (and yourself) enough to be honest and tell him what has hurt you and why, and trust that once he know, he will do is best not to do it again? You also have to keep in mind that even by telling him, and even is he really has no intention of hurting you again, he might not be successful 100% of the time. We are all human after all. I don't think anybody here can say that they are perfect all the time and that they don't revert to old habits from time to time. It doesn't make us bad people, just human.
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Old 03-18-2016, 07:42 AM
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Don't be too hard on yourself...after what you've been through, PTXD (post traumatic ex disorder) is completely understandable. Honestly, if someone I dated after my first marriage reminded me at all of my ex, I ran away screaming. Eventually, I found his opposite!

Trust your gut, though. If he was condescending or dismissive about any of this, or if you continue to hear about it from hm for too long after this discussion, pay attention.

Sending you a hug.
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Old 03-18-2016, 07:47 AM
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I think some therapy around the trauma you have been through would be helpful.
I mean, in a world of addicted arseholes, your Ex would be a contender for president. . . seriously

I think the advice to let your current man know what triggered you and why
would be a good idea--use this as an opportunity to grow as a couple and to
work on things together.

It will be OK WTBH--disagreements happen, and you guys can weather this.
I think your intentions to be sure nobody violated your boundary is not unhealthy either,
but learning what the line and signs are will take time
with a "normal" loving person as a partner.

You can do it
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Old 03-18-2016, 08:10 AM
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I think you've received some great feedback and suggestions. I don't know about your background or his.

It was eye opening for me to read because this exchange you had with him reminds me so much of the communication dynamic I have with two of my siblings. Manipulation, mind reading, control, etc...

We are ACOA, and maybe because these are issues that I'm working on front and center in therapy, I'm feeling like a hammer that only sees nails However, suppose this style of relating is present in any family that has other forms of dysfunction.
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Old 03-18-2016, 08:21 AM
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Friend-I think just asking these questions is huge-it shows a total self awareness and willingness to see below the surface and figure out what's going on. Self reflection, something our exs lack 100%. That's huge!! And it's good that you're asking these questions now bc I'm sure you looked right past them with your ex (I say that with empathy bc I know I did). Much love!
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Old 03-18-2016, 08:45 AM
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I'm kind of in the middle on this one...from the outside, I agree that it seems there is a PTSD-ish reaction here that may have been exacerbated by the interaction with your ex earlier. But I also take GREAT umbrage when people tell me something like "I'm sorry that you misinterpreted that," or "I'm sorry that you reacted that way." That is SUCH a non-apology. Then again, it is so common in our society that I think a lot of people say those things without realizing how ridiculous they are.

I agree that some time and distance, and maybe a good talk with a therapist, will help you sort through this.
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Old 03-18-2016, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Wisconsin View Post
I'm kind of in the middle on this one...from the outside, I agree that it seems there is a PTSD-ish reaction here that may have been exacerbated by the interaction with your ex earlier. But I also take GREAT umbrage when people tell me something like "I'm sorry that you misinterpreted that," or "I'm sorry that you reacted that way." That is SUCH a non-apology. Then again, it is so common in our society that I think a lot of people say those things without realizing how ridiculous they are.

I agree that some time and distance, and maybe a good talk with a therapist, will help you sort through this.
I think (bc I have now re read his apology text that matches what he said in person last night too) that his apology was sincere... And I think that I am just struggling with not associating the language that xAH used to be a jerk with someone who maybe just is being a guy and saying things in a way that is not how I would....

If nothing else, this has shown me that there are a lot of hidden landmines that I don't even yet realize exist that apparently are going to pop up like this and my knee jerk inclination is to simply shut down and isolate myself...

I am NOT comfortable trusting it appears... who knew...
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