Am I missing something here?
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Originally Posted by amy55 
Abelle, You know what you are going to do, you don't need our permission. It's your life. It might even be a good thing. You have shown that you are tenacious. You have continued to be here for 3 days, even though you were not hearing what you wanted. You said you would be going to a therapist and al-anon. I believe you.
I think that what has happened in the past must look like a fog to you. You didn't know what was going on. Now you are opening up your eyes. You are looking, you are listening, and you are asking questions. I think you need to see things for yourself. I do have a feeling that you will also continue posting.
This may not be the best answer, or the best reply, or the most popular, only know that it is your decision, and your life, and that we will be here for you, and we wish only the best for you and your children.
I think that what has happened in the past must look like a fog to you. You didn't know what was going on. Now you are opening up your eyes. You are looking, you are listening, and you are asking questions. I think you need to see things for yourself. I do have a feeling that you will also continue posting.
This may not be the best answer, or the best reply, or the most popular, only know that it is your decision, and your life, and that we will be here for you, and we wish only the best for you and your children.
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At age 42 I don't think it is done consciously anymore. I think it is ingrained in them, as to how to get what they want. By this time, they have built up many tactics, if one doesn't work, they go down the list. Testing boundaries, I don't think they see it that way, they just need to have what they want, I don't think they see boundaries.
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Originally Posted by amy55
At age 42 I don't think it is done consciously anymore. I think it is ingrained in them, as to how to get what they want. By this time, they have built up many tactics, if one doesn't work, they go down the list. Testing boundaries, I don't think they see it that way, they just need to have what they want, I don't think they see boundaries.
Abelle, have you ever had a good friend point out something about yourself to you & it takes you totally off guard... "I do that??? Really?"
Then you are aware of it, start noticing it & can't believe you EVER didn't know this about yourself?
I think it's a similar dynamic, albeit a much more simplified comparison.
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Originally Posted by amy55
At age 42 I don't think it is done consciously anymore. I think it is ingrained in them, as to how to get what they want. By this time, they have built up many tactics, if one doesn't work, they go down the list. Testing boundaries, I don't think they see it that way, they just need to have what they want, I don't think they see boundaries.
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Originally Posted by FireSprite
^^Yes
Abelle, have you ever had a good friend point out something about yourself to you & it takes you totally off guard... "I do that??? Really?"
Then you are aware of it, start noticing it & can't believe you EVER didn't know this about yourself?
I think it's a similar dynamic, albeit a much more simplified comparison.
Abelle, have you ever had a good friend point out something about yourself to you & it takes you totally off guard... "I do that??? Really?"
Then you are aware of it, start noticing it & can't believe you EVER didn't know this about yourself?
I think it's a similar dynamic, albeit a much more simplified comparison.
No, I can't remember a friend doing something like that.
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Positive or negative - just that there could be anything about your own behavior that you don't see clearly.
I clench my jaw when I'm stressed, really? I never noticed.
I tap my glass when I have a good poker hand? Didn't realize.
It's much more complicated with the addiction component, I'm just trying to illustrate that it isn't always a formed, intended thought like - "Today I'm going to push Abelle boundaries to see where I can find holes."
I clench my jaw when I'm stressed, really? I never noticed.
I tap my glass when I have a good poker hand? Didn't realize.
It's much more complicated with the addiction component, I'm just trying to illustrate that it isn't always a formed, intended thought like - "Today I'm going to push Abelle boundaries to see where I can find holes."
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Can you live with a Mr Right, or a Mr Know-It-All, who will only admit that he might possible be wrong when the relationship looks like it is ending? But even as he is admitting he might possibly be wrong, somehow it is still your fault.
I think boundaries to them are just obstacles. Just something in the way of what they want. What do you do with an obstacle? You cross them.
Boundaries are not obstacles to be crossed.
I think boundaries to them are just obstacles. Just something in the way of what they want. What do you do with an obstacle? You cross them.
Boundaries are not obstacles to be crossed.
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My ex was a "Mr Right", Mr Know-It-All". If he saw that I was really upset, and just about ready to throw in the towel, he would actually sit with me and have a calm, rational? discussion. They lasted a long time. When I look back at them, it seems like he was trying to brainwash me. I would agree with him, because I just couldn't take it anymore, anything I brought up, he had a response for, until I couldn't think of one other thing to discuss. Everything would get calm, and I would walk away thinking that he finally understood me and that things would change. We would then go out, have a good time, everything is back to normal.
It would be days later that the fog would lift, and I would think back to the conversation, and realize he didn't "get" anything. I was still feeling bad. Whatever it was that upset me, was still there, he just now had an explanation for it, and how I needed to change. So, I just spent my time changing myself and changing myself. I'm more convinced now, that it was a form of brainwash. It took me days to see it though. I could never figure out how he did it.
It would be days later that the fog would lift, and I would think back to the conversation, and realize he didn't "get" anything. I was still feeling bad. Whatever it was that upset me, was still there, he just now had an explanation for it, and how I needed to change. So, I just spent my time changing myself and changing myself. I'm more convinced now, that it was a form of brainwash. It took me days to see it though. I could never figure out how he did it.
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Originally Posted by amy55
My ex was a "Mr Right", Mr Know-It-All". If he saw that I was really upset, and just about ready to throw in the towel, he would actually sit with me and have a calm, rational? discussion. They lasted a long time. When I look back at them, it seems like he was trying to brainwash me. I would agree with him, because I just couldn't take it anymore, anything I brought up, he had a response for, until I couldn't think of one other thing to discuss. Everything would get calm, and I would walk away thinking that he finally understood me and that things would change. We would then go out, have a good time, everything is back to normal.
It would be days later that the fog would lift, and I would think back to the conversation, and realize he didn't "get" anything. I was still feeling bad. Whatever it was that upset me, was still there, he just now had an explanation for it, and how I needed to change. So, I just spent my time changing myself and changing myself. I'm more convinced now, that it was a form of brainwash. It took me days to see it though. I could never figure out how he did it.
It would be days later that the fog would lift, and I would think back to the conversation, and realize he didn't "get" anything. I was still feeling bad. Whatever it was that upset me, was still there, he just now had an explanation for it, and how I needed to change. So, I just spent my time changing myself and changing myself. I'm more convinced now, that it was a form of brainwash. It took me days to see it though. I could never figure out how he did it.
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I would strongly recommend the book, "Why Does He Do That", by Lundy Bancroft.
Re: your question ---- I wonder do they feel bad for making us feel bad? Or just "justified", I don't know if I can answer that.
Sometimes I don't think that they even think about how we feel. They just got their way.
PS - Whether you stay with him or not, I think you are doing a good job researching and asking questions, because all of this will make you stronger in your own life.
Re: your question ---- I wonder do they feel bad for making us feel bad? Or just "justified", I don't know if I can answer that.
Sometimes I don't think that they even think about how we feel. They just got their way.
PS - Whether you stay with him or not, I think you are doing a good job researching and asking questions, because all of this will make you stronger in your own life.
Last edited by amy55; 01-10-2014 at 09:48 AM. Reason: adding in PS
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FWIW I think he just wants his way and control and he doesn't really ever think about how it affects you. We over think and over analyze because it is what we do. We try to put the way we think onto how they would but that is like us trying to think the way an addict thinks. In other words, we cannot begin to pull apart and ask why a schizophrenic thinks the way they do. Same with your boyfriend. We can sit here all day trying to figure it out and make guesses. All we can go by is his actions and they say loud and clear he wants control and he wants things his way. Other than that, I couldn't begin to tell you how he feels about you or why he doesn't want sex. No one knows the answers to that except him.
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" I don't understand why it's so hard to break away." (Abelle)
^^^^
This has a very easy, simple answer. You do not want to break away.
I have walked your path. I too believed with some time things would calm down, he would outgrow what I considered " having too much fun , party stage" I made excuses for the unacceptable behaviors and actions that transpired while he was intoxicated.
I really believed his morning after, " I went to far last night, that won't happen again."
But what I failed to understand, his morning after words were words coming out of a mouth that were being controlled by a substance/drug . And an addicted brain, is not functioning normally.
An active addict's words are meaningless. They are not sober thoughts. His mind is still being controlled by a substance.
Another poster, posted inquiring if the 15 years she spent with an addict were a lie, well if you are involved with someone who is under the influence, I certainly have learned that anything and everything that comes out of their mouth to be exaggerated, drama, drama, drama, and lies, Lots and lots of lies. So for him to say he loved me, also became meaningless, his actions said the complete opposite of his words.
In a court of law, if you are on the witness stand, and it is mentioned or proven that you were under the influence of a drug, your testimony will be disregarded, not admissible, removed from the stand, the end.
While each and every one of us have to figure it out for ourselves, it would serve you best to think with your head, ( stick to the facts) and do not allow your heartstrings to rule.
Proceed with extreme caution, from the balcony, I can say you are playing with fire.
^^^^
This has a very easy, simple answer. You do not want to break away.
I have walked your path. I too believed with some time things would calm down, he would outgrow what I considered " having too much fun , party stage" I made excuses for the unacceptable behaviors and actions that transpired while he was intoxicated.
I really believed his morning after, " I went to far last night, that won't happen again."
But what I failed to understand, his morning after words were words coming out of a mouth that were being controlled by a substance/drug . And an addicted brain, is not functioning normally.
An active addict's words are meaningless. They are not sober thoughts. His mind is still being controlled by a substance.
Another poster, posted inquiring if the 15 years she spent with an addict were a lie, well if you are involved with someone who is under the influence, I certainly have learned that anything and everything that comes out of their mouth to be exaggerated, drama, drama, drama, and lies, Lots and lots of lies. So for him to say he loved me, also became meaningless, his actions said the complete opposite of his words.
In a court of law, if you are on the witness stand, and it is mentioned or proven that you were under the influence of a drug, your testimony will be disregarded, not admissible, removed from the stand, the end.
While each and every one of us have to figure it out for ourselves, it would serve you best to think with your head, ( stick to the facts) and do not allow your heartstrings to rule.
Proceed with extreme caution, from the balcony, I can say you are playing with fire.
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Originally Posted by marie1960
oops I may have just confused you with another poster who's partner is still actively drinking, sorry for my confusion.
) I was just about to reply No worries! There is a lot for me to consider from it anyway...
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Hi guys and girls who helped me! I just wanted to say thank you. After talking to you I took a small step back with my boyfriend, and only then I started to realise that he doesn't care that much about me really and yes, he is rather crafty in arguments. I've read a few more books since the last time I posted here. For example, "Why does he do that?" was a real eye-opener.Thank you, Amy55! I no longer look at the world the same way after reading it. It was a painful all round evaluation of my entire past and set of beliefs.
I have started my therapy, thanks to some of you suggesting that my choice of boyfriend (and my desire to stick with him no matter what) was worth investigating. So I am investigating
, although I am still quite convinced that there isn't a problem with me. Well, not quite .
Me and my man... well, I do not want to break away, you're right marie1960. But I am doing exactly that and it hurts like hell. The process of breaking up is long and painful, we've had so many conversations and I kept hoping that somewhere along the road he will start speaking in a non-selfish, non-controlling, non-patronizing way.. Or at least say gently 'I love you girl, I am sorry'..
But we only got further and further from each other. I started to wonder, was he on the psychopathic side? Does he have feelings? Not due to strength of the statements (that too sometimes, like "I am never wrong") but mainly due to strangeness and inappropriateness of some of the things he said. Then I've read the "Psychopath Free" book and figured out he is not one of them.
So today I am supposedly single. I don't understand why he is not trying to make up with me and instead just keeping it quiet. It's probably crazy to wonder that, since I broke up with him for the third time now. Maybe I am just 'spoiled' by all the drama after most of my previous break up. And... if I did the right thing this time and broke up with a controlling drama queen, why no drama, no calls, no text messages... why no sight of pressure to get me back?
I am as bad as him. I want him to go and my life to be free of worry. And I want him to try and make me stay. So that I suffer a little longer in exchange for glimpses of what comes across as love. And it isn't.
I think God shouldn't give such gorgeous exterior to anyone, unless they have good nature to go with it. If this guy was just a little less sexy, I'd not suffer this much
I really don't know how to keep my emotions in order at the moment. All over the place. So want to do two entirely opposite things, while experiencing obvious lack of interest from him anyway. I am going mad!
I have started my therapy, thanks to some of you suggesting that my choice of boyfriend (and my desire to stick with him no matter what) was worth investigating. So I am investigating
, although I am still quite convinced that there isn't a problem with me. Well, not quite . Me and my man... well, I do not want to break away, you're right marie1960. But I am doing exactly that and it hurts like hell. The process of breaking up is long and painful, we've had so many conversations and I kept hoping that somewhere along the road he will start speaking in a non-selfish, non-controlling, non-patronizing way.. Or at least say gently 'I love you girl, I am sorry'..
But we only got further and further from each other. I started to wonder, was he on the psychopathic side? Does he have feelings? Not due to strength of the statements (that too sometimes, like "I am never wrong") but mainly due to strangeness and inappropriateness of some of the things he said. Then I've read the "Psychopath Free" book and figured out he is not one of them.
So today I am supposedly single. I don't understand why he is not trying to make up with me and instead just keeping it quiet. It's probably crazy to wonder that, since I broke up with him for the third time now. Maybe I am just 'spoiled' by all the drama after most of my previous break up. And... if I did the right thing this time and broke up with a controlling drama queen, why no drama, no calls, no text messages... why no sight of pressure to get me back?
I am as bad as him. I want him to go and my life to be free of worry. And I want him to try and make me stay. So that I suffer a little longer in exchange for glimpses of what comes across as love. And it isn't.
I think God shouldn't give such gorgeous exterior to anyone, unless they have good nature to go with it. If this guy was just a little less sexy, I'd not suffer this much
I really don't know how to keep my emotions in order at the moment. All over the place. So want to do two entirely opposite things, while experiencing obvious lack of interest from him anyway. I am going mad!
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Abelle, thank you for the update. I think one thing that stands out is you want to be wanted. I think that is something we all want. So when you say "I want him to go and my life to be free of worry. And I want him to try and make me stay" it makes perfect sense. You want him to go because in your head you know it is best but you want him to try and make you stay because it will make you feel wanted and validated.
I learned awhile ago that we cannot make someone like us and we cannot change the person they are. Sometimes in our minds we hold this fantasy of what we want them to be and when they show us over and over that they are not that person it is very hard to accept and it can take many red flags and many hurtful incidents to finally see who they really are. Maybe he is a narcissist, who knows? What is most important is you take care of yourself and do what is best for you and DONT LOOK BACK. Once you stop focusing on his behavior and start focusing on yours and your recovery, you will heal much quicker! I wish you the best.
I learned awhile ago that we cannot make someone like us and we cannot change the person they are. Sometimes in our minds we hold this fantasy of what we want them to be and when they show us over and over that they are not that person it is very hard to accept and it can take many red flags and many hurtful incidents to finally see who they really are. Maybe he is a narcissist, who knows? What is most important is you take care of yourself and do what is best for you and DONT LOOK BACK. Once you stop focusing on his behavior and start focusing on yours and your recovery, you will heal much quicker! I wish you the best.
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Wow I missed this whole thread the first time it came around.
It was really agitating to me to read and when I got to the end I was so glad you were stepping away from this guy.
Totally agree with this.
HUGS to you (((Abelle))).
You sound like an awesome lady, your kids are doing well and your home, professional and social life in order. Who wouldn't want to top that off with a wonderful love life.
Been with my RAH for over 20 years, he is sober for the past year or so. I am so glad my RAH has found sobriety. Good for him, good for our children.
Well now comes the rest of the onion. A lot was hidden behind the alcohol and a lot is still hidden behind the recovery. Don't really know who this man is anymore and not sure if I want to stick around to see if it will work. If I was in your shoes with less than a year invested, I would definitely walk away. Now typing this out I am thinking now is now and actually it doesn't really matter how much time you spent beforehand. If you are not being treated with consideration why let it continue.
Just also wanted to say as for the times you consider your bf being so helpful, being there for you, take a good hard look at that. To me that can often be considered part of the manipulation of the A mind. For years lots of the help my AH gave to me was part of a smokescreen to keep the light off of what was going on with him and drinking. Now as RAH and with my own recovery setting boundaries and stuff, well let's just say, he's not as helpful as he used to be. I actually like it that way, some of his helpfulness was actually harming me and making me less of the person that I am. Not sure if I am describing this clearly. Maybe others have had a similar experience.
Again, (((HUGS))) take care of yourself (((Abelle))) and your kids.
It was really agitating to me to read and when I got to the end I was so glad you were stepping away from this guy.
Originally Posted by needingabreak
Abelle, thank you for the update. I think one thing that stands out is you want to be wanted. I think that is something we all want. So when you say "I want him to go and my life to be free of worry. And I want him to try and make me stay" it makes perfect sense. You want him to go because in your head you know it is best but you want him to try and make you stay because it will make you feel wanted and validated.
I learned awhile ago that we cannot make someone like us and we cannot change the person they are. Sometimes in our minds we hold this fantasy of what we want them to be and when they show us over and over that they are not that person it is very hard to accept and it can take many red flags and many hurtful incidents to finally see who they really are. Maybe he is a narcissist, who knows? What is most important is you take care of yourself and do what is best for you and DONT LOOK BACK. Once you stop focusing on his behavior and start focusing on yours and your recovery, you will heal much quicker! I wish you the best.
I learned awhile ago that we cannot make someone like us and we cannot change the person they are. Sometimes in our minds we hold this fantasy of what we want them to be and when they show us over and over that they are not that person it is very hard to accept and it can take many red flags and many hurtful incidents to finally see who they really are. Maybe he is a narcissist, who knows? What is most important is you take care of yourself and do what is best for you and DONT LOOK BACK. Once you stop focusing on his behavior and start focusing on yours and your recovery, you will heal much quicker! I wish you the best.
HUGS to you (((Abelle))).
You sound like an awesome lady, your kids are doing well and your home, professional and social life in order. Who wouldn't want to top that off with a wonderful love life.
Been with my RAH for over 20 years, he is sober for the past year or so. I am so glad my RAH has found sobriety. Good for him, good for our children.
Well now comes the rest of the onion. A lot was hidden behind the alcohol and a lot is still hidden behind the recovery. Don't really know who this man is anymore and not sure if I want to stick around to see if it will work. If I was in your shoes with less than a year invested, I would definitely walk away. Now typing this out I am thinking now is now and actually it doesn't really matter how much time you spent beforehand. If you are not being treated with consideration why let it continue.
Just also wanted to say as for the times you consider your bf being so helpful, being there for you, take a good hard look at that. To me that can often be considered part of the manipulation of the A mind. For years lots of the help my AH gave to me was part of a smokescreen to keep the light off of what was going on with him and drinking. Now as RAH and with my own recovery setting boundaries and stuff, well let's just say, he's not as helpful as he used to be. I actually like it that way, some of his helpfulness was actually harming me and making me less of the person that I am. Not sure if I am describing this clearly. Maybe others have had a similar experience.
Again, (((HUGS))) take care of yourself (((Abelle))) and your kids.
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I missed this whole thread the first time around, too.
First and foremost, Abelle, big giant ((HUGS)) to you.
When I started dating my AH, we were living in different cities. He hung photos of my daughters in his house. He spoke of my daughters to his friends. Sometimes I would take my girls along for a weekend visit to his town. Sometimes he would come visit me on weekends when I had my girls. He engaged them and enjoyed them, but oh how I wish I had taken the time to look a little deeper and see that he wasn't *really* forging a true relationship with either of them. All this when he was sober/in recovery.
Fast forward 5 years, and we are married with a son of our own, and my AH is 4 years into a massive relapse. He marginalizes and ignores my daughters at best, and is downright rude to them at worst. He has elevated our son not only above my daughters, but above me. And then there is all the "helping" he did in better times...which is now thrown back in my face pretty much every single day. The whole situation is extremely toxic and unhealthy for everyone, and we have only begun to heal and recover our true selves in the 7+ months that he has been working several hundred miles away.
((HUGS)) to you, and ((HUGS)) to your children, whom I ALSO love, sight unseen.
First and foremost, Abelle, big giant ((HUGS)) to you.
When I started dating my AH, we were living in different cities. He hung photos of my daughters in his house. He spoke of my daughters to his friends. Sometimes I would take my girls along for a weekend visit to his town. Sometimes he would come visit me on weekends when I had my girls. He engaged them and enjoyed them, but oh how I wish I had taken the time to look a little deeper and see that he wasn't *really* forging a true relationship with either of them. All this when he was sober/in recovery.
Fast forward 5 years, and we are married with a son of our own, and my AH is 4 years into a massive relapse. He marginalizes and ignores my daughters at best, and is downright rude to them at worst. He has elevated our son not only above my daughters, but above me. And then there is all the "helping" he did in better times...which is now thrown back in my face pretty much every single day. The whole situation is extremely toxic and unhealthy for everyone, and we have only begun to heal and recover our true selves in the 7+ months that he has been working several hundred miles away.
((HUGS)) to you, and ((HUGS)) to your children, whom I ALSO love, sight unseen.
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Well, I think we finally broke up. I have this delayed kind of anger reaction, pretty strong actually... I feel as I was set up and had no chance (for a healthy relationship) from the start! I won't act on it of course. It makes the pain of the break up less.It helped to read this thread too, to remind me of the reasons I chose to end the relationship. I don't know where else I would find the strength to stick to my guns.
I know, I sound like a drama queen but in a very short space of time I got hooked like never before.
If I don't see you again guys, once again, thank you a million. You gave me strength.
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Abelle, thank you for being here. I missed this thread also, but have learned a LOT by reading through it now. Wishing you all the best in your life!!
Keep putting your children and yourself first. Why are you unsure if you've broken up with him? No need to draw out the pain.
Keep putting your children and yourself first. Why are you unsure if you've broken up with him? No need to draw out the pain.
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