Am I missing something here?

Old 01-08-2014, 03:19 PM
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My hope for you is that you keep moving forward with self discovery, your feelings of uneasiness in the situation, and the fact that it brought you here is awesome, it takes a lot of courage.

We are here lots of good stuff on this thread, I always learn when i read here.

I hope you keep posting, you are , obviously a strong smart woman

Thanks for sharing with us . Katie xo
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Old 01-08-2014, 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by needingabreak View Post
"Why do you feel he is "sick?"
Well, alcoholism is a disease, right? Not a choice? Picking up a drink or not is a choice but being this way and having to deal with additional stuff isn't. Am I getting this wrong?

Originally Posted by needingabreak View Post
[COLOR="Red"]I am curious why you think he all of a sudden changed his mind and felt differently?
Because he said that, how he said that, what his actions were and because all along I felt intense attraction from him to me. Come on guys, some things you can't fake. That's why I reacted strongly, when it suddenly changed, hence our confrontation on such sensitive matter, things he said and all the rest. Prior to that and after 'resolving' this (maybe not quite, since I am writing about it here now) he is naturally affectionate etc. I cannot imagine a human being faking chemistry and connection like that, and not feeling attraction. If there was a slightest sign that he wasn't fully in it, I wouldn't continue. That's why I have this strange feeling that he sees problems where there aren't any.

Originally Posted by needingabreak View Post
He gave you examples of how you could be more attractive and said he didn't want sex. Now all of a sudden he does. Do you not find this odd that once you dumped him he changed?
Yes, I do find this odd, like some other few things. But for me, call me stupid, one thing is brain damage, which was mentioned earlier, and another an evil intention or a character flaw which won't change. I worked for around 2 years with sufferers of dimentia, they too displayed odd behaviours, obviously far more odd. Those were someone's mothers, fathers etc, who were still loved and supported.

Originally Posted by needingabreak View Post
"He did tell you. He said you were not attractive and then went on to explain what you should do so he would be attracted to you. He told you the kids would be too much, did he not? Maybe that is ok with you that a man says the things he did to you and the excuse that he gives you" his mind was wandering" and "he had to think it through" are good enough explanations. How did you put pressure on him?
You are right. He did tell me and I did take it at face value. And that is not ok with me, hence me breaking up with him recently. Maybe I just need time to let it go. I undestand this is a damaged person. I just need to accept that there is nothing I can do about it and forget about all the wonderful things we had such a short time ago. This is not easy. How did I put pressure on him? Well, by getting upset in bed and going on a sofa to feel better, before coming back to bed to sleep next to him. It would have not been nice to listen to your GF making lots of noise on purpose and walking up and down the stairs . Well, basically I made it clear that him turning his back at me didn't feel good.

I am hanging by a finger nail in this relationship. It's just looks like he is genuinely sorry and is trying to fix things. I can see that right now he is trying his best.
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Old 01-08-2014, 03:27 PM
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He is who he is. He is who he wants to be, and he will be who he intends to be, whether anybody else finds that good, bad, indifferent, or any label we might choose to use. To see yourself as obligated to rescue him from an illness that he doesn't believe he has is intruding on his autonomy of being.

I did that, and after I divorced my AH of 20 years and really began to look at my part in our dysfunction, I found that I had been very arrogant without meaning to be. I had felt he needed to be reformed, and I had taken that on, uninvited, as my duty. I was wrong. Had I figured that out 12 years ago, maybe things would have been different. Who knows, can't tell, but it was a major contribution on my part to our marriage's dysfunction. I regret it. If I had let the chips fall as they fell without my "management" (read interference), his abusive alcoholic behavior might have been cut short or if not, I might have left years ago and spared myself and my kids a lot of pain.
Wow.
I wish I had written that.
Word. For. Word.
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Old 01-08-2014, 03:47 PM
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I want you to know I was not intimating that he didnt care for you or was faking his attraction to you. I felt he was saying these negative things to have control. That is what they do. They say things that bring you down a notch, put you in your place or have you questioning your worth to get the upper hand.

I dont think going to the sofa because you were upset with his behavior is putting pressure on him. Just my thought but if I told you my husband said I was getting heavy and wasn't attracted to me so I tried to talk about it and he didnt like it would you think I was putting pressure on him or would you think I was trying to get to the bottom of what he said so we could figure it out?
He may make you feel like you were putting pressure on him but having a discussion should not make you feel like you are pressuring someone and therefor should not speak about it. It is another form of control.

I am glad you decided to come here for support and I know from experience how hard it can be to hear the hard truth or not what we want to hear. Some may feel picked on but believe me that is not what I nor anyone here is about. We all care very much about the people who come here and tell them the brutal honest truth (as gently as possible) of what we have learned from our own experiences.We learn a lot ourselves, every day.

No matter what you decide, I hope you continue to come here and post. I know this is a difficult issue to deal with and no answer seems easy.
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Old 01-08-2014, 03:56 PM
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Originally Posted by needingabreak View Post
I want you to know I was not intimating that he didnt care for you or was faking his attraction to you. I felt he was saying these negative things to have control. That is what they do. They say things that bring you down a notch, put you in your place or have you questioning your worth to get the upper hand.

I dont think going to the sofa because you were upset with his behavior is putting pressure on him. Just my thought but if I told you my husband said I was getting heavy and wasn't attracted to me so I tried to talk about it and he didnt like it would you think I was putting pressure on him or would you think I was trying to get to the bottom of what he said so we could figure it out?
He may make you feel like you were putting pressure on him but having a discussion should not make you feel like you are pressuring someone and therefor should not speak about it. It is another form of control.

I am glad you decided to come here for support and I know from experience how hard it can be to hear the hard truth or not what we want to hear. Some may feel picked on but believe me that is not what I nor anyone here is about. We all care very much about the people who come here and tell them the brutal honest truth (as gently as possible) of what we have learned from our own experiences.We learn a lot ourselves, every day.

No matter what you decide, I hope you continue to come here and post. I know this is a difficult issue to deal with and no answer seems easy.
Thank you Needinabreak. I don't feel cornered, I just feel supported. All these people take time to write and help. I didn't expect that and I mean it . Also, I somehow feel the difference between the brutal honesty from people here and brutal honesty from him, which no less takes me apart. I hear what everyone is saying, in many different ways.
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Old 01-08-2014, 04:21 PM
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Abelle,

Just know that this is a safe place for you. You got so many responses today because there are so many of us that went through the same thing. We care for you here, and we don't want you to hurt the way that we did.

In the beginning of a relationship, (and yes, 8 months is the beginning) there are many things that we miss, because we all make adjustments for a new relationship. We try to compromise. After all, we are not perfect either.

I saw many red flags along the way, but I just tried to explain them all away.

I was married for 21 years before I started to research verbal and emotional abuse. I always wanted to blame his behavior on something else. His drinking, his childhood, is he depressed, did he have bi-polar. It all came down to that it didn't matter. The things that came out of his mouth hurt me. So after all my research, after all the excuses I gave him, it still came down to the same thing. The things he said hurt me. (I won't even get into the physical abuse).

What I wanted to say though, was just like you I needed to ask questions, see, I was questioning my own sanity, so I am glad that you are asking the questions, instead of trying to change yourself into what he wants you to be, which is always wrong anyway.

I do hope that you stay around, it is a great place also for us to figure out why we do the things that we do.

I am really impressed that you stayed around all day and talked. I also invite you to read the stickies that are above, regarding what abuse is. Your relationship is still new at 8 months, so you may not see a lot of you in there, but just so that you can see things when they happen, and know that it is not you, might really help you a lot.

Look forward to knowing you better.

((((((((((hugs))))))))))

amy
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Old 01-08-2014, 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by amy55 View Post
Abelle,

Just know that this is a safe place for you. You got so many responses today because there are so many of us that went through the same thing. We care for you here, and we don't want you to hurt the way that we did.

In the beginning of a relationship, (and yes, 8 months is the beginning) there are many things that we miss, because we all make adjustments for a new relationship. We try to compromise. After all, we are not perfect either.

I saw many red flags along the way, but I just tried to explain them all away.

I was married for 21 years before I started to research verbal and emotional abuse. I always wanted to blame his behavior on something else. His drinking, his childhood, is he depressed, did he have bi-polar. It all came down to that it didn't matter. The things that came out of his mouth hurt me. So after all my research, after all the excuses I gave him, it still came down to the same thing. The things he said hurt me. (I won't even get into the physical abuse).

What I wanted to say though, was just like you I needed to ask questions, see, I was questioning my own sanity, so I am glad that you are asking the questions, instead of trying to change yourself into what he wants you to be, which is always wrong anyway.

I do hope that you stay around, it is a great place also for us to figure out why we do the things that we do.

I am really impressed that you stayed around all day and talked. I also invite you to read the stickies that are above, regarding what abuse is. Your relationship is still new at 8 months, so you may not see a lot of you in there, but just so that you can see things when they happen, and know that it is not you, might really help you a lot.

Look forward to knowing you better.

((((((((((hugs))))))))))

amy
Amy
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Old 01-08-2014, 05:42 PM
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I'll bite here on some of the things you have written about that I don't think have been addressed.

Some recovering A's have problems with sex. As in no sex drive and intimacy issues. There is quite a bit of information on here about it, I invite you to read the many, many stories on here regarding it. Loss of sex drive does not equate to demeaning another - it just means loss of sex drive.

My husband is one of those people. He lost his sex drive when he got sober that initial date was in 2002. We have sex, its great, and its not often. Bothered me at first A LOT. Now it doesn't at all. We have a wonderful relationship now. Its simply not the most important thing. That works for me it may not for you.

Its easy to attribute strange confusing behaviors to recovery, trauma etc. you can spin around the world trying to psychoanalyze his behaviors and what they mean. People simply aren't that complex or mysterious. In fact his behavior may not have a damn thing to do with addiction or recovery - may just be who. he. is.

You are here asking so you know something is wrong. I imagine life with him will be like this always - confusing. For me it would have ended when he said he didn't want to further the relationship due to the kids.

Under the best of circumstances entering into a relationship with a recovered A needs consideration. A relapse is always a possibility - I know - I have been through one. They suck.

Proceed with caution - something is very wrong here.
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Old 01-08-2014, 09:24 PM
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I have to put this out there, and if i am thinking unclear, I know my SR friends will reel me back in............ but............

Has anyone else had thoughts that perhaps this guy is struggling with his identity?

And I am not solely implying his sexual identity, from what you have shared with us Abelle, this guy does not appear to know who he is.........
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Old 01-09-2014, 12:19 AM
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Originally Posted by marie1960 View Post
Has anyone else had thoughts that perhaps this guy is struggling with his identity?

And I am not solely implying his sexual identity, from what you have shared with us Abelle, this guy does not appear to know who he is.........
I had these thoughts. Especially that in the last 8 months he twice was thinking of changing his successful career to something completely new. Well, that alone does not say there may be identity issues but in the process he would say one set of things about his current career and give all the most valid reasons and describe quite strong feelings. Then everybody gets him support in his new development, me, his family. We research, chats it through with him from different perspectives etc. And then he changes back his mind and feels completely different about everything again. That would be a huge mental work to do it properly, I can't imagine it happening in such short periods of time, no matter RA or not.

When we met, he spoke in definite terms, expressing positive certainty in all aspects of his life. He said he knew what he wanted from life. This changed. Now he says, not without heartbreaking emotion, that he doesn't. It seems he suffers all this yo-yo too. I feel his recovery was going ok before he took on a relationship.
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Old 01-09-2014, 04:58 AM
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Sounds like what I call the dreamer syndrome. Coming up with plans and putting some effort into the "dream" via talking but no action. The idea becomes the occupation.

Its clear he is dissatisfied with his life. Seems to have no idea how to move forward in a positive fruitful manner. Probably doesn't do anything of substance until he has no choice but to (i.e. losing a job and having to find another).

Or, he could just be lazy.

These are personality issues that aren't specific to addiction. My guess - he has always been this way.
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Old 01-09-2014, 05:09 AM
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Hi Abelle,

Welcome to SR and sharing your story. As you can see it has been a great opportunity for all of us to share our own experiences and history with similar situations with loved ones who do and say things that are complete head scratchers.

When you take situations like this and share it you get a lot of different opinions and it is very enlightening for all of us. I just know read all 5 pages and as a card carrying codie in recovery with children that I raised from infancy to adulthood by myself I will share my thoughts with you.

I was raised by an abusive alcoholic... a truly cruel man and family of origin was insane...truly. Life lesson: Just because I was abused does not give me a hall pass on behavior as an adult. Neither does it give an A hall pass because they are "sick".

We are all sick... we all are capable of cruelty, selfishness, thoughtlessness etc. You said he was a person of faith so you get this... we are responsible for our lives and our choices.

He is "sick" and you feel like you need to treat his issues with kid gloves because he is an A allegedly in recovery. This is common for A's to use the "recovery comes first" as a manipulative tool and of course we don't want to rock the boat because they are "sick".

As others have pointed out a life recovery plan is a program of action and not isolation. It is when we open up to others and are transparent and ask for honest feedback it is when we grow. Now who we open up to and trust can be a therapist, a pastor and in AA it is a sponsor which is sort of like being disciple in the Christian faith. You choose a wise person maybe with a great deal of expertise in addiction in one of those fields and you actively pursue those character defects that make you say hurtful things that are selfish in nature. Selfishness being the root of many, many issues in alcoholism.

AA meetings are the social part of the wheel. A lot of people don't like open meetings but my now XRA and I found Big Book meetings and 12 step meetings to be very helpful to him. We attended on open BB meeting together for over a year that had some great wisdom and life changing folks that had been meeting together for many years. To go to meetings and meet with a sponsor regularly is a time commitment and requires effort. Show me your calendar and I will tell you where your heart lies or your "program". A sponsor and the steps are the real program of recovery in AA.

The A that is running their own recovery and doing their own talking to their head is on a bad path in my opinion. Now if your reports had been different about his behaviors towards you I might be more open minded that he is the rarest of the rare alcoholic who can be his own therapist and thrive...but its not working! He is still "sick" and apparently needs you to overlook his bad behaviors because of his "brain".

Now...it takes two years for the brain to fully recover from alcoholism damage. Whatever brain cells are left well that is what he has got to work with. My XRA drank like a fish for over 15 years and would drink to almost .50 regularly and was given death sentences 5 times in hospital emergency rooms. He lived. He has been sober this last time 5 months and I guarantee you he killed million of brain cells and when he was drinking he was said some seriously nasty cruel things. But sober? He would never, never tell me anything like your RA has said to you... oh my.

Not being attracted to you sexually. Say what? That is clearly not normal for a love relationship between a healthy man and woman in the honeymoon phase. Everyone has a different sex drive and while I am abstinent right now being single I simply couldn't imagine having a man in my life if sex weren't a huge motivator for me to give up my independence as a single woman. And for me to enter back into a relationship it would have be off the scale insanely good and frequent...but that's just me.

The kids. I never married any of my boyfriends who wanted to marry me and be a father figure to my kids. My kids didn't want a stepdad in the house and so I never let them marry me. But somebody who didn't love my kids or at least like my kids a lot... well...they would be off the list too. And remember...what your kids see in your relationships is what they will imprint as "normal" and it does affect their adult choices later. So model healthy stuff to them as they are and always should never be second to any boyfriend.

As other posters have pointed out this your decision entirely and our posts are just our thoughts based on very limited information... you are there and know this man. And if your heart tells you he is worth taking to the time to make sure he is not the right guy for the rest of your life then that is OK too!

But... what do you want? Forget him. He is a big boy and he has already said he doesn't want to talk about recovery and he knows all the answers for himself and even his A friend! Sounds like the blind leading the blind but that's just me.

What about you? What kind of life do you want with what kind of man? Can you be happy with a part time guy that not that involved with your kids that you are kind of friends? It doesn't sound like he will be ever a sensuous partner that will tell you how you drive him crazy thinking about you all day and he can't wait to tear your clothes off... do you want to give that up forever? To me that was the best part of being in a relationship and cuddling and sharing our deepest thoughts and dreams. That is intimacy at its highest level... is he capable of that?

Once you know what you want (not him) and you decide what your boundaries are then you can share them.

Questions about recovery and his recovery program? Completely valid. Relationships with A's are always risky. If you continue and learn about alcoholism and get involved with Alanon you will definitely begin to operate from a position of knowledge and your own self discovery. Knowledge is strength. Would he support your attending alanon? It is a great question to see how confident he is in his "recovery".

If he is having problems in the sex arena and you would like to have a great sex life what is willing to do about it? See a doctor? Sex therapist? Take Viagra? What will he do FOR YOU to meet your needs sexually? Does he even care???? Making love is the glue that helps hold a couple together and for good reason... our bodies are designed to dump a huge amount of chemicals that make us feel good about ourselves and our partner. It grows a relationship.. it makes us closer in every way... we become ONE... he isn't interested in that??? There is reason physically or mentally there... or as has been said maybe it is something deeper. Has he had previous intimate successful relationships with women ever? If so go to lunch and ask them (just kidding!) But seriously what is his past history here?

Now liking or wanting kids is a red flag. Not desiring you or wanting an active sex life is a red flag. His program of recovery is a red flag. It just sounds like he is not happy in his own skin and you make him feel better but he is restless and irritable and discontent... he has not arrived in true recovery from his alcoholism is the quick read for me.

Once you know what you want and can effectively communicate it and find out if he is willing to work on these issues together you will know more if he is the "one" maybe. Or it might reveal that he is not the "one" and you need to start seeing other people ... you don't have to completely curb him but maybe distance your heart a little?

These are just thoughts... and you can take what you need and leave the rest. Maybe he is in a rut and will spin his wheels and get back on track and all this will be a distant bad dream some day... but there are lots of red flags here! AS we say... red flags are not party favors so don't collect them!

Guard your heart... you sound like a very together smart gal... and you have gotten a lot of feedback on this thread. You are ready to figure this thing out...we are all rooting for you and wish we had come here at 8 months! LOL... most of us were many years in and enmeshed by the time we got here.

Keep us posted...
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Old 01-09-2014, 05:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Hopeworks View Post
Hi Abelle,

These are just thoughts... and you can take what you need and leave the rest. Maybe he is in a rut and will spin his wheels and get back on track and all this will be a distant bad dream some day... but there are lots of red flags here! AS we say... red flags are not party favors so don't collect them!

Guard your heart... you sound like a very together smart gal... and you have gotten a lot of feedback on this thread. You are ready to figure this thing out...we are all rooting for you and wish we had come here at 8 months! LOL... most of us were many years in and enmeshed by the time we got here.

Keep us posted...
Thank you Hopeworks, there is so much to consider and feelings to get over. But I already feel stronger by simply talking to you.
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Old 01-09-2014, 01:16 PM
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What would be the best way to part with someone so that they are encouraged to seek help?
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Old 01-09-2014, 01:17 PM
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um, one is not connected to the other....if that is your motive then you are trying to control HIS outcome.
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Old 01-09-2014, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Abelle View Post
What would be the best way to part with someone so that they are encouraged to seek help?
I did smile a little at that one Abelle.

Let him go he will find his way when the time comes.
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Old 01-09-2014, 01:23 PM
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Originally Posted by AnvilheadII View Post
um, one is not connected to the other....if that is your motive then you are trying to control HIS outcome.
Not, that's not my motive. I just want him to seek help, whatever it is, go back to AA meetings, have a sponsor or therapy. Whichever. Things are getting stranger and stranger, I don't see anything wrong with pointing that out. It's just how to do that right. Or should I just pretend I don't care and leave saying nothing, only to hear a few weeks later that he relapsed?
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Old 01-09-2014, 01:32 PM
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Tell him what you just told us. Things are getting stranger and stranger and you feel it is time to end the relationship. You have literally no control over whether he relapses afterward or seeks recovery. You can wish him the best and tell him you hope he finds happiness, whatever that means for him. I don't think there is a "right" way to point out the issues you have with how another person is behaving without coming across as judgmental, which I don't think is what you want.

In our relationships, the best we can hope for is that we are with someone who we can accept for exactly who they are right now and who can do the same for us. If that level of acceptance isn't there for whatever reason, it's not a crime. It's nothing to feel bad about. It just isn't. Or it's bad timing. The most respectful thing to do is move along so everyone can be available when someone comes along who can take us as we are, or so that we can get ourselves into a better place for being in a relationship with anyone. I think you probably already understand that, though.
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Old 01-09-2014, 01:32 PM
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yesterday 6am: His lifestyle is very healthy, he has a successful career in sport, an affectionate relationship with his parents (with whom he gets in touch every day), a lovely property he done up all by himself and you can continue the list far and far with his personal and professional qualities and achievements. I see him as a very driven and self-disciplined person.

today 1pm: I just want him to seek help, whatever it is, go back to AA meetings, have a sponsor or therapy. Whichever. Things are getting stranger and stranger, I don't see anything wrong with pointing that out.

so, according to you, in the course of one day this man went from having his sh#t together, being healthy driven and motivated TO needing help, needing to return to AA, seek therapy, because he is on his way to relapse.

all that really changed was YOUR point of view. i'm not sure you are really the BEST judge and jury here for what HE needs?????? take care of YOU, he's a big boy and can figure things out for himself.
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Old 01-09-2014, 02:00 PM
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Abelle,

It is confusing isn't it...??? It is totally overwhelming, confusing and your emotions are all over the place right now. Take a deep breath and relax...it is completely normal to be all over the map...there is the emotional side and the logical side of your brain and heart. There is the A himself so sweet one minute your heart just wells with love and hope and the next minute Hyde shows up!

And you come here and are swamped with advice that none of it feels real great right now... most of us know how you feel because we have walked in your moccasins.

Here is the problem with your using your knew knowledge of what he "should" do : it will go over like a lead balloon. He won't welcome it at all because he has already communicated that he has his recovery under his control in his opinion and it is his opinion that counts right now. It is his recovery to manage.

If you start controlling or shifting his "program" even if you are right on time he will resent it and if you have to herd him to real or authentic recovery how can he maintain if you don't keep helping? That was my dilemma... I could run my A's life very well thank you but it was a full time job that required babysitting, sober policing and bail bonds on occasion. They have to figure this out for themselves or it does not stick!

I know it is hard, hard, hard but sweetie you have to concentrate on you and why you are so attached to a guy that has great big holes in him. I know why I pick those kind of guys because I am addicted to fixing everybody and everything... er.. . or I used to be!

Now I get to come here and share my issues and how I resolved them and it helps me not go pick up another drunk to raise! LOL...

You are less than a year into this thing... you aren't married or carrying his child. You aren't sharing your home or finances so this all good. You are on a path of discovery and on it you will figure out where you start and he ends.... we call it staying on our side of the street.

He has to find his own way out and how to live life alcohol free with joy, peace and happiness in his own being. So do you... have you considered alanon? A great therapist is worth their weight in gold...

Honestly... a lot of women would have high tailed it to the hills and you might be glad you stuck this thing out! He may be Prince Charming in the rough and just needs time and his own polishing to just come through... but...

This is all about you! Create boundaries (google and stickies here) and communicate exactly what you are looking for longterm in a mate. See if he wants to stick around and try to make that happen with a proactive plan. Alcohol or no alcohol... does that make sense?

His A issues he has to figure out... alanon will help you here a LOT!

You are doing great just by sticking it out and asking questions. If I were a betting person I would put a lot of money on you are going to figure it out and make the right decisions in the end.
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