bemyself

Hi all,
this is my first new thread as I don't want to hijack others'. {note, this could be a bit long, but I'm home alone, as always, and SR esp Sec Connections is my lifeline}.

It's only just midday here in Melb Aus, and I'm on my second glass of wine. It's part of a bottle left over from last night. Once it's finished there'll be no more in the house. Will I (note the use of 'will', for the AV language gurus...all opinions welcome) then get in the car etc to buy more - either before I get too drunk to drive, or after I've had a nap, or later in the day? All after trying sooooo hard to practise separating from my AV Beast voice.

I've been working on doing just that on and on this past week or more. Yet, despite having made a Big Plan (and noting same on one of the recent threads here), I seem to just get 'done in' by flooding, vertigo, whatever you care to call it. Bizarrely, I even verbally noted 'vertigo' to myself whilst IN the car yesterday afternoon, driving to buy more wine.

I'm doing this all alone, literally - apart from you guys on SR SC in particular. I've stopped going to AA meetings quite some days ago for all or any of the many reasons which so many talk about both here and on LifeRing and other non-12 Step type sites / discussions. Interestingly, I took a call only this morning from an AA 'mate', who was just checking to see how I was -because people had noticed I hadn't been attending, and those I do speak to knew from my own admission that I'd been drinking again, on and off many times over recent months and weeks. He, the mate, was cool; but I did feel quite ok stating that I simply can't go back to meetings (for the various reasons). I didn't ramble on, but simply said: 'I have NOT given up on getting and staying sober, I'm just taking a non-12 Step path'. I'd mentioned RR / AVRT to him on the call, but simply what AVRT stood for, that's all. I wished him well, and said, 'luv to all the crew, hope to catch up for a coffee sometime [i.e. not at meetings]'.

I hope the mods won't move this thread elsewhere, because I only mention AA as part of my attempt to quit for good, using AVRT. Sorry: what I mean is: I much prefer AVRT for a host of philosophical etc reasons, because AVRT type people (at least here on SR) will engage, discuss, be intelligent, etc.

Having said all that, some of you laser-like minds here (bless you!) might well say (perhaps): so just stop drinking! The infuriating thing for me is that I GET THAT, the sheer, beautiful logic of that, Big Plan, AVRT and all. Yet.......here I am, still drinking. I'm smart, I'm super-educated, I love discussion on a huge array of topics, I'm alone, I'm often bored, I love my dog, I have no family or friends (within striking distance), I love gardening, I'm retired due to various disabilities (including alcohol dependence, but that's not the only one), I have some money other than the pension, I'll always be a renter as I age further (due to past relationship / financial disasters)......on it goes. I kind of know who I am.

I've 'Identified' as 'an alcoholic' in the past year of meetings and at the rehab I attended for a month Jan 2012. That's all very well, but I wish to not be 'in recovery mode' as RR points out as an endless hall of mirrors, a reductio ad nauseum kind of being.

I guess, I just wish I could BE 'recovered', be done with it, get through the first day, 2nd day, etc as the blasted Beast does its thing with withdrawal symptoms, thoughts, and all its other tactics. But I simply seem not to be able to just separate fully.

I'm not being hard on myself; I know I CAN do this for good. But by gees, there's something I'm missing - not in the technique, but in myself. Bleh!!!

bemyself

Bless you RevivingOphelia - I didn't know if anyone was up (I get lost in the different time zones, given I'm in Australia, and so many are in the US / UK.)

Thanks luv, just for saying thanks!

bemyself

I'd dearly like to clarify something re what could be taken as an inference about AA / AVRT: I have DEEP respect, big time, for some members, esp those like RobbyRobot and probably others whose names I forget right now, who are indeed highly engaged, intelligent, will discuss stuff without sloganeering and so forth.

God, it's quite a minefield, this whole 'getting off the grog' thing. Anyway, that's by the by, and quite a different topic.

Main thing is, thank God/desses or whatever for SR.

Lenina

Be myself,

The endless hall of mirrors for me was continued drinking. Making a Big Plan solved a lot of stuff for me because I committed to never drink and never change my mind. Do I want to drink? no. The Beast may attempt to rally from time to time but that does not mean I need to act on it. Drinking is not an option.

I hope someone who is a better writer than I comes along soon to help you through this. You made a very good call to come here. SR is great.

Is your addictive voice maybe batting you around between recovery methods and taking you hostage? AA and AVRT, SMART...does it get you confused?

Love from Lenina

Received

bemyself,

For me, all my deep philosophical thinking did nothing but feed my beast. It was nothing but beast.

I don't need to know anything, believe anything, debate or engage in deep and prolonged discussions about life, etc. In fact, for me, that is my way of avoiding the very simple truth in regard to alcohol, which is, I will never drink again and I will never change my mind.

I'm sure others will come along to share their understanding and experience as am not an eloquent communicator.

I'm sorry you are in this seemingly awful, awful place in your mind. I've been told some people think themselves to death in order to drink themselves to death. To me, that's pure beast but then you already alluded to such.

Again, I'm sorry.

bemyself

Hi Lenina and Received,
thanks so much for responding to my rather torturous post :-)

I have great respect for you and many others who do stay sober, truly. And, btw, you each write / speak perfectly clearly!

I think Lenina remarked / wondered if I was sort of confused (to summarise) between AA and AVRT etc. I don't believe I am confused, or sort of strung between, the different approaches. I certainly WAS, a while ago; but now, I am clear in myself that the sheer blinding clarity of AVRT cuts through all the other confusions endemic in the 'recovery industry' if I may use that term. Several posters in this section of SR have used terms like a 'smart bomb' / laser' for AVRT; you know, like one for one's own mind.

For it is IN one's own mind / brain wherein the Beast hangs out. I discovered this - even before I really got into the AVRT threads here, and before I finally got and read the RR book, which was only about a week ago. Even during mid- and late-2012, I'd seen a truth (for me) that - even after coming home (for example only) from a meeting, which often had been 'good' for me - there I was, just 'wanting' / 'deciding' to drink. [To parse that: once all the to-ing and fro-ing of what I later learned was addiction ambivalence etc was / is noticed......I could feel, really feel, the decision To Drink. Gross! In Step parlance, I used to think, oh it's the disease etc. Most recently however, I know it's AV: IT!

Received: thanks to you too for concern, much appreciated! In one aspect, I get what you mean about over-thinking; indeed, I spend a lot of my days practising letting thoughts go, etc as per meditation and mindfulness. However, I do accept that thinking - a great deal - is just part of who I am! Indeed, what I so appreciate about SR people is that fact: we think..and then write about what we're thinking, often in wonderfully compassionate and eloquent ways. I love the thinking SR community!!! And, when all is said and done, AVRT in particular is solely about our 'thinking'. Hence the overall notion of Rational recovery.

maybe I'm just too ir-rational, as it were, at heart?! I don't know. I'm just glad to be part of this community, and the more support and thoughts coming my way, the better!!!

Thanks, crew.
Vic

bigsombrero

Thanks for your post. I am also going through this alone, with just a smattering of "program-related" interactions here and there. AA rubbed me the wrong way, and I'm starting to explore AVRT but honestly haven't done more than go to my local bookstore yesterday to find that they didnt' carry any copies of RR books.

I wish I had advice for you, but at this point I can only say that I hope you get out of this rut and find success. As someone else who is going at it alone, I am interested in hearing both your triumphs as well as your challenges. Best of luck with everything, and thanks for the informational post.

Received

Hey Vic,

I too so much appreciate SR and all the compassionate thoughts and insight.

You might like to read my first thread on here back in the early days of January to understand a bit of my journey.

I guess what I'm trying to communicate is RR educated, untwisted the years I'd spent in a program and led me to the very simple, basic, irrefutable fact that I had been missing all along, my BP. I will never drink again and I will never change my mind.

Anyway, I'm a bit tired but if you are interested look back on the first thread and other few I started in the first week or so.

I know I can over think a speck of dust but when it comes to not drinking, I keep it straight to the point. No mucking around with that. And please know this is just my experience.

ETA: I don't wish away my years in AA. I believe in the beginning it helped put some time between me and alcohol. It's just that I know now, I don't drink ever and I will never change my mind.

xo

ntmu

Hi,

I do not know if I can help you, but you just helped me.
I just realized that I had given up other addictive consumptions as well. Junk food, meat, hard drugs (I'm kinda afraid to talk about this here yet).
But the drugs are the best example probably, I was more or less experimenting with them, but they became addicting very fast and one of them was definitely getting bad enough to where I knew I should be getting help, but could never talk to someone about that.
Without rambling on about the whole thing, I got to a point with each of these things where I said, "that's too addicting for me, I can't have that", almost in a way where I'm offering it a compliment as well, as not to seem too self-righteous. "I like it too much".
And that's worked, I got hooked on some very addictive substances, but with respect not to the extent of many people out there, but
alcohol -yes, without a doubt.
My alcoholism has trashed my life for almost 20 years and I continue to love it.
I need to say, "that's too addictive for me, I can't have it", "I love it too much" & let it go before it starts.
As some of the other comments said, "I will never drink again, I will never change my mind" - that will never work for me.
Trying to stop my mind from changing is impossible, but I will also never get a new one.
I need a quick retort towards my substances to change my mind and my direction, as well.
I hope I remember I wrote this, it will help me a ton going forward. hmmm...

shockozulu

Let's keep non-secular programs out of this thread please.

I know several people who found SMART Recovery help them while also working RR. The tools might help you too. It can't hurt and its a secular program too. In fact, they have the same roots.

bemyself

Thanks to all who responded, very much.

Shock, may I first say I have / had NO wish to offend anyone, least of all your good self. I have found many of your posts very helpful. I merely mentioned my 'passage', if you will, through a year of AA meetings AS PART of my journey. When there's an overlap (in time, and thought), it's very difficult to excise one bit of one's experience into This forum whilst keeping another bit in That forum. Sometimes, there is merely - well, some overlap. I totally respect and understand the differences between the SR sub-communities. However, I have often noticed that a few respected members do in fact mention their time (some, current time) in AA or similar whilst mainly discussing secular approaches.

And, yes, I do know a little about SMART - however its meetings are so rare where I live. I see things like SMART as likely very helpful for many; but for me (just saying), straight CBT has never truly cut it for me, with depression or anything else. I really love nuances and the melding of differences, I guess. Probably part of the reason I often feel I don't 'fit' in anywhere: not just in the world of recovery, but anywhere. What I mean is: I find it very difficult to 'conform' to a set of rules which are circumscribed by X, Y, Z.

Sorry: maybe I just miss Terminally Unique.

bemyself

BigSombrero:

Getting the RR book hardcopy is quite difficult by just going to a bookshop, or even (here in Aus at least) in a library. I just did a search on various online book sites and ordered thus - it took a couple of weeks to arrive from the States, but it came.

I've noticed that (weirdly) stuff like RR books are nowhere near as prominent or available (i.e. in stock everywhere) as stacks of other recovery books / materials. It's quite a bore, really - I guess I'm glad that I'm a librarian's daughter, an ex-post grad type whose thesis (unfinished) was on books n publishing and new technologies....so, somehow, I just know how to dig and dig into the Net to find whatever books I need.

bemyself

BTW Dee (or Anna) please move my thread elsewhere if you feel it appropriate. I have no idea currently where it 'should' be. Apols if I've p&%%ed off members on this forum.

RobbyRobot

Hi Vic,

I'm glad you started this thread.
No worries, you'll soon be quitting again, and it can be the last time you need to quit. Absolutely it can.

Sometimes the harder we work and try for something, the more difficult and challenging the task mysteriously becomes...

Its easy to say, but, relax and give up trying to do AVRT perfectly. Its not about getting AVRT done right that is important, its really more about using AVRT to get right with yourself about not drinking. You're far more important then any AVRT techniques. AVRT is simply a tool to help YOU be the YOU only YOU can be when not drinking -- AVRT helps you to not drink, and really doesn't do much more then advertised.

Sometime people come to think AVRT makes it impossible to drink, and that's just not true about AVRT. AVRT makes it possible to stay away from drinking, without fail, unless one decides otherwise. Our decisions makes or breaks the strength of our AVRT.

"But I simply seem not to be able to just separate fully."

This kind of misunderstanding in itself can create enough doubt to seriously have you at the mercy of your Beast and AV.

Separation does not require a valuation of "fully" or "this much is enough" or whatever -- with AVRT any separation is enough and sufficient to successfully keep away from drinking.

Its really that simplistic. AVRT is not difficult to enjoy instant satisfactions with going forward.

When we believe we don't have sufficient separation, we do ourselves great harm, and AVRT is pretty well useless after that to aid us in not drinking.

I am suggesting you revisit the idea that AVRT is a way and means to separate YOU from your Beast/AV, and that AVRT is totally capable of accomplishing that separation without struggle or difficulty.

I also suggest, the struggles you are having with drinking is not you, but those of your Beast; and the struggles you're having with not drinking are the struggles you're having with yourself.

Take a good hard look at what I just suggested. Listen for the AV. Recognise it. Let it go. Move on. Listen for more AV. Recognise it. Move on.

Feeling like drinking? That is the Beast you're feeling, not YOU'RE feelings.

Feeling sure of not drinking? That is not the Beast, that's all YOU

Please try to take it easy, Vic. I have every good hope for YOU.

ntmu

.

RobbyRobot

Actually, we are fortunate enough to have THIS forum which is rich with Terminally Unique's postings.

Awesome.

shockozulu

I understand where you are comings from, I just want to make sure we need to adhere to the forum description. I did my SMART meetings online and then joined another fellowship.

CBT is not enough for me, but it gave me some good tools to work with. My attitude is we are all different and so it may take a mix of programs for each of us. For me, I started with SMART, later became a facilitator where I learned even more and then when some tough times came later I joined another program. That is why I thought SMART online might be a good fit with RR.

It never hurts to try and it is better than where you are now. It only takes an hour of your time to log on their chat room and attend a meeting.

As a person who thinks outside the box SMART was perfect for me.

GerandTwine

There's no way to know for sure whether or not someone is under the influence of alcohol when they are posting here, so I appreciate it when someone says they have been drinking right at the get-go.

Here is the very first paragraph of "AVRT: The Book Course" in "Rational Recovery, The New Cure For Substance Addiction" by Jack Trimpey.The sentence I bolded is very true and understanding why it is true for "any amount" was a good learning exercise for me, and further nailed down the lid on the coffin of my Beast. It also reminded me why it was morally wrong for me to drink any more when I made my big plan.

bemyself

Thank you a very great deal to all who responded later. I particularly was struck (positively!) by Robby's very considered explanation. this morning, I also revisited some parts of the excellent 4 Part AVRT 'seminar' as I like to call it led by Terminally Unique back in late 2011.

Right now (almost 24 hours to the dot, i.e. midday since my first post), the remaining wine is long ago down the drain; I've been repeating my BP to myself and listening for AV responses. As with the past few 'day 1's, for me it's at It's most apparently 'persuasive' as a direct, felt solution to physiology of withdrawal...e.g. actual symptoms such as heart palpitations and so on . So for those, apart from the mental separating, I am judiciously taking one 5mg tab of Valium (left over from this time last year, prescribed to take home with me 'as required' by the psychiatrist there).

I must confess that the physical withdrawal side of things is - in my opinion - a little too cavalierly dismissed by Trimpey in the book, along the lines of 'just like a mild case of the flu'. I remember reading years ago in Allen Carr's book on quitting smoking (not read his equivalent on drinking cessation) that Carr used almost exactly the same words, and sort of 'pfff-ed' withdrawals off in like manner. Just my thoughts anyway.

thanks again everybody, and I'll keep on keeping on sober. I thought earlier this a.m. that I'd likely reflexively post something like: 'I hope / maybe I'll get through today and tomorrow sober....'. And there it was: ALL DOUBT IS AV!!!

GerandTwine

Since this is an AVRT thread and I hear so much institutionalized Addictive Voice in Robby Robot's post, I thought I'd insert phrases that will get rid of that AV, as I understand AVRT. My basic process is to take an idea that supports the future use of alcohol or drugs and make it not do so.

I did not eliminate any of Robby Robot's text, just added to it, so you can read his complete message here again by just going down the quoted boxes.

Well, here goes -

when somewhat inebriated
Read the rest of this on a day when you don't have any alcohol in your blood.
don't
It's not hard to do.

If you haven't made a Big Plan yet,
with the Big Plan, that impossiblity is true. If you think
then that thought is your Addictive Voice, because a Big Plan makes it impossible for the one who made it to drink again. That's simple logic. So, I will repeat,
hasn't made a Big Plan and
one-day-at-a-time sobriety, which is the opposite of the solitary (BP) decision that's part of
if you have a Big Plan.

don't
far from being
because it is so easy to do. Think about the Big Plan and you can't help but get sufficient separation - IF you believe drinking any more is wrong for you. If you don't believe drinking any more is wrong for you, then it clearly wouldn't make sense to make a Big Plan.
your AV wants you to believe
Actually it is the opposite. The struggles you are having when you drink is you trying to stay out of trouble. If you don't get in trouble, well, then you've succeeded for that drinking episode, whether it's surfing the net safely from home, or whatever; and the struggle you're having with not drinking are the struggles of the Beast - 100% - that is the definition of IT!!

And don't expect any of this to make sense if you've got alcohol in your blood.

I believe it is important to identify the institutionalized Addictive Voice as much as one's individual Addictive Voice.