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Have become all Beast again...need to just say it

Old 02-07-2013, 07:05 PM
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Thank you GT - umm, I think :-)

As I stated in my post above yours (perhaps they overlapped in the posting): I don't have any alcohol in my blood - even more so now, given it's even later in the day, and based on when I had the final drink relatively early last night. Also, I DO have a Big Plan.

I appreciate your significant efforts - and time - to comprehensively, forensically even, gloss Rob's remarks. I also have a reasonably well-tutored brain (as you rightly say, when completely sober, and assuming my years of drinking haven't effected much cognitive damage) in discourse analysis. So I will certainly make several more attempts to get the distinctions you've made above.

As for your somewhat blunt assessment of R's language as partially 'institutional AV'....well, I won't speak for R, whom I'm guessing will take your critique in his usual generous spirit. Having said that, I particularly appreciated precisely that generous spirit in encouraging ME - my best self, as it were.

Off to work, as it were :-) Just got back from the library with yet more books: one by Dawkins (illustrated, very unusual) and another on spirituality and science, an endlessly fascinating topic to me.
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Old 02-07-2013, 07:22 PM
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How can someone who has made a Big Plan voluntarily drink alcohol?
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Old 02-07-2013, 09:03 PM
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Originally Posted by GerandTwine View Post
Since this is an AVRT thread and I hear so much institutionalized Addictive Voice in Robby Robot's post, I thought I'd insert phrases that will get rid of that AV, as I understand AVRT. My basic process is to take an idea that supports the future use of alcohol or drugs and make it not do so.

I did not eliminate any of Robby Robot's text, just added to it, so you can read his complete message here again by just going down the quoted boxes.

Well, here goes -

Knock yourself out, GT. You and I have been here before, yeah?

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Old 02-07-2013, 09:34 PM
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Originally Posted by RobbyRobot View Post
Knock yourself out, GT. You and I have been here before, yeah?

Hey RR,

I think more linearly about AVRT's securing a presence in society as opposed to a "been here before" sort of cyclical struggle.

GT
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Old 02-07-2013, 09:40 PM
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Originally Posted by GerandTwine View Post
Hey RR,

I think more linearly about AVRT's securing a presence in society as opposed to a "been here before" sort of cyclical struggle.

GT
Yeah. Awesome. Me, I prefer to think out-of-the-box. Straight line thinking doesn't float my boat. To each their own. Later, dude.
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Old 02-07-2013, 11:06 PM
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Morning from the UK shift Glad to see you sounding so much more positive bemyself.

Cuppa?
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Old 02-07-2013, 11:37 PM
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Hi MTN - thank you! Yes, feeling more positive - it's the tea-time shift here in Aus (i.e. put my dinner on).

I think I'll keep right out of any sparring b/n GT and Robby: you guys seem to understand each other :-). All I will say is that I do tend to be more like Robby, in my thinking - not terribly straight line at all.

GT, your question above is indeed highly logical, but you may care (or not) to read my original post in this thread or as part of someone else's in Secular Connections, where I describe the actual feeling of 'wanting / deciding' - even with a BP. I believe it's the nub of addiction ambivalence - well, it was for me, anyway in those recent experiences!

Off to attend to my dinner - alive and sober!
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Old 02-08-2013, 12:58 AM
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Originally Posted by bemyself View Post
Hi MTN - thank you! Yes, feeling more positive - it's the tea-time shift here in Aus (i.e. put my dinner on).

I think I'll keep right out of any sparring b/n GT and Robby: you guys seem to understand each other :-). All I will say is that I do tend to be more like Robby, in my thinking - not terribly straight line at all.

GT, your question above is indeed highly logical, but you may care (or not) to read my original post in this thread or as part of someone else's in Secular Connections, where I describe the actual feeling of 'wanting / deciding' - even with a BP. I believe it's the nub of addiction ambivalence - well, it was for me, anyway in those recent experiences!

Off to attend to my dinner - alive and sober!
2 great things to be!

In a bit of a rush this morning otherwise would go get my book but there is a page with a list of reasons you may choose to drink...

mine was usually either the forget it, I want it so I'm going to have it or I'm just going to to shut the voice up because I can't take any more.

Now I've made myself late so apologies if that makes no sense. I'll come back later with more thoughts

Enjoy your dinner!
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Old 02-08-2013, 02:02 AM
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mine was usually either the forget it, I want it so I'm going to have it or I'm just going to to shut the voice up because I can't take any more.
i know those two lines , The first one i just have to remember No means No and there is no forget it , I would'nt say yes and forget about it to someone who bops me on the head and takes my wallet time and time again (something alcohol has done a lot) .

The second part i bombarded with logic , i might say i can't take it anymore ..
Where is the evidence ? There was no physical evedence i couldn't take the voice anymore the "i can't take it anymore" was part of the madness, so i called myself on it and with clarity i dismissed it and just sat comfortably listening to the radio or reading and waited it out .
The big fight took about a week and since then has reduced to nothing , if it comes back i can deal with it , i have endless patience in my resolve to stay sober , it dosn't .

Bestwishes, M
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Old 02-08-2013, 06:38 AM
  # 30 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by bemyself View Post
I think I'll keep right out of any sparring b/n GT and Robby: you guys seem to understand each other :-). All I will say is that I do tend to be more like Robby, in my thinking - not terribly straight line at all.
GT and I go way back into last year even with our differing experiences, views, and understandings. I think we sincerely understand each other enough to know we don't generally agree on how AVRT is practiced in the ongoing moments of real life Its all good though. We're each both free of alcohol more then three decades now, so this itself provides some insight into our entrenched disagreements.

This thread is awesome. Glad you're more your self again, Vic.

:ghug3
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Old 02-08-2013, 09:33 AM
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Originally Posted by mecanix View Post
i know those two lines , The first one i just have to remember No means No and there is no forget it , I would'nt say yes and forget about it to someone who bops me on the head and takes my wallet time and time again (something alcohol has done a lot) .

Very true. I've been mugging myself for years!

I like the line - I recognise, therefore, I abstain.

The second part i bombarded with logic , i might say i can't take it anymore ..
Where is the evidence ? There was no physical evedence i couldn't take the voice anymore the "i can't take it anymore" was part of the madness, so i called myself on it and with clarity i dismissed it and just sat comfortably listening to the radio or reading and waited it out .
The big fight took about a week and since then has reduced to nothing , if it comes back i can deal with it , i have endless patience in my resolve to stay sober , it dosn't .

Bestwishes, M
I like this. I've never thought about it like that. Yes show me the evidence AV, seeing as you are SO right. Prove it. Show me the evidence that I can't get through this. Tough guy! Lol Hmmmm that said, it did time and time again that I gave in and headed out for that drink.

Clarity of thought and mindfulness (is it mindfullness?) Is going to help me a lot now I believe. I always knew that if I could just take myself off to bed for 20 minutes, a power nap, that the feelings would be gone. Obviously not always possible, but I didn't know of any other way to deal with clearing my mind.

I've had a super day today and have downloaded a James Patterson 'novel' for some takes no thought reading. I'm looking forward to my bed tonight
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Old 02-08-2013, 09:35 AM
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Whoops I've miss quoted you and put my reply within yours.

This - Very true. I've been mugging myself for years!

I like the line - I recognise, therefore, I abstain.

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Old 02-08-2013, 09:56 AM
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Clearing the Mind Recipe

Originally Posted by MyTimeNow View Post
Clarity of thought and mindfulness (is it mindfullness?) Is going to help me a lot now I believe. I always knew that if I could just take myself off to bed for 20 minutes, a power nap, that the feelings would be gone. Obviously not always possible, but I didn't know of any other way to deal with clearing my mind.
There are literally thousands of links, but this is one that I really like.
Vipassana (Mindfulness) Meditation {Guided With Music} - YouTube
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Old 02-08-2013, 10:19 AM
  # 34 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by bemyself View Post
Hi all,
this is my first new thread as I don't want to hijack others'. {note, this could be a bit long, but I'm home alone, as always, and SR esp Sec Connections is my lifeline}.

It's only just midday here in Melb Aus, and I'm on my second glass of wine. It's part of a bottle left over from last night. Once it's finished there'll be no more in the house. Will I (note the use of 'will', for the AV language gurus...all opinions welcome) then get in the car etc to buy more - either before I get too drunk to drive, or after I've had a nap, or later in the day? All after trying sooooo hard to practise separating from my AV Beast voice.
I didn't get past reading this part of your first post for this thread because the thinking human that wants to quit and would have been able to utilize AVRT was absent from the universe at the time.

I then simply counted that there were 90 or so lines of text that extended over the next five hours in seven posts from inebriated BMS and dismissed them outright as irrelevant to towards an AVRT discussion.

In terms of working on AVRT, I think the title for the thread was completely accurate and sufficient just by itself. As it says "...to just say it."

Of course, other readers may find the writings of inebriated BMS interesting for other reasons.

In your eighth and later posts, I'm assuming your blood is clear of alcohol, so I reengage.

Originally Posted by bemyself
I describe the actual feeling of 'wanting / deciding' - even with a BP.
Anyone with a Big Plan can FEEL the "wanting / deciding". That's the way AVRT works. It's a passive technique.

But to have made the "transcending personal commitment to unconditional permanent abstinence" (from RR:TNC) and at the same time drink large amounts of wine goes beyond the bounds of any sort of believability I could ever imagine.
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Old 02-08-2013, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by freshstart57 View Post
There are literally thousands of links, but this is one that I really like.
Vipassana (Mindfulness) Meditation {Guided With Music} - YouTube
I'm struggling to find words. I've never known or done anything like that before. I can't even write this post in my usual type quickly, bang it out manner.

That's made me feel weird. But in a good way. I just feel like everything has slowed down.

3 minutes to type 2 paragraphs.

I do feel strange, like I want to cry. I'm crying. I feel like everything is coming out.

Oh my word. I never thought I'd be feeling so odd, but so good in a strange way to something I have often poo pooed the thought of before.

Thank you freshstart, even though it has frightened me a little bit... That was quite amazing. I still feel odd! Wow.
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Old 02-08-2013, 12:44 PM
  # 36 (permalink)  
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Thanks to mecanix, MTN and freshstart for their very useful posts - yes, I too try to do mindfulness as often as I can.

re the last post from GT: there are numerous things I might say in riposte, but to do so would get this thread closed down. All I will say then, GT, is that the tone of your latest post - in particular the bit about 'the thinking human being....was absent from the universe', as your way of opening discussion (!) - was, and is, personally offensive and insulting to me, my efforts in abstaining (particularly in such early days at another attempt), my very complexity as a thinking, feeling, uniquely individual human being.

I respect your decades of sobriety, very much. I do not respect, however, any response from any SR member (or those from any other programme devotee), which verges on dehumanising zeal.
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Old 02-08-2013, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by GerandTwine View Post

Of course, other readers may find the writings of inebriated BMS interesting for other reasons.
Of course, also, we could just care about BMS.

I do, I want her to keep posting and gaining knowledge.
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Old 02-08-2013, 01:54 PM
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Yes, quite!

On we travel, eh, MyTime?
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Old 02-08-2013, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by bemyself View Post
Yes, quite!

On we travel, eh, MyTime?
That we do bemyself,

you're very welcome
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Old 02-08-2013, 02:31 PM
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Originally Posted by bemyself View Post
Thanks to mecanix, MTN and freshstart for their very useful posts - yes, I too try to do mindfulness as often as I can.

re the last post from GT: there are numerous things I might say in riposte, but to do so would get this thread closed down. All I will say then, GT, is that the tone of your latest post - in particular the bit about 'the thinking human being....was absent from the universe', as your way of opening discussion (!) - was, and is, personally offensive and insulting to me, my efforts in abstaining (particularly in such early days at another attempt), my very complexity as a thinking, feeling, uniquely individual human being.

I respect your decades of sobriety, very much. I do not respect, however, any response from any SR member (or those from any other programme devotee), which verges on dehumanising zeal.
I can't imagine myself having a greater interest in your "very complexity as a thinking, feeling, uniquely individual human being." I believe your becoming an abstainer via AVRT will allow that for you so much more than your becoming a lifetime member of the recovery group movement.

Your title for this thread suggests that you were absent from the universe. If you are "all Beast", there's not much room left for much else at that time, especially an un-inebriated brain to do AVRT.

I have a certain regard for the capacities of the Beast. Mine knows me better than any other person. Its existence is a sign of health. But as I transitioned from simply dependent to addicted, its goal became repulsive to me in the extreme. The Beast is all animal in an anti-human way. Even drinkers who don't think it's wrong to get drunk still have to do a lot of work to stay out of trouble with other thinking human beings.

People who try to do AVRT while drinking eventually come to realize its futility. I'm not saying you shouldn't be posting here, even when drinking, but there's no way you can do it and not expect to get some straight-up AVRT feedback.

AVR is a passive Technique. Once learned, it requires no action other than occasional short pauses without action.

Learning AVRT can also be done by simply reading and/or listening and thinking. It can also help to be able to speak (or write, as here on SR) with others to learn it. But, when people who do not fully understand AVRT talk together about it, the learning can take side tracks and become prolonged. This is partly because the institutionalized AV has a background influence in many assumptions people make. There is a real likelihood the AV will attempt to throw red herrings into the discussion.

My goal here is to practice the technique of recognizing the Addictive Voice the best I can.

Here's some more AVRT. When someone tells me I am "sober". I will come back with the AVRT response that I am not sober, but I am permanently abstinent. In AVRT sobriety is a tentative not drinking limbo based on all kinds of successes or failures in various ways of living. My abstinence has nothing to do with anything else in my life. I am not living a sober life, I am living MY life as an abstainer.
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