entropy1964

Hey DD

I've been popping in and out of this thread to see if you've posted. How are you?

I appreciate your honest and direct approach. Almost always encourages an interesting debate. Hope you're well.

lessgravity

Yeah man, where you at?

daredevil

Regrettably, I’ve binged again since I last posted, but am back on the wagon.

I have come to realize that a part of me will always desire oblivion.

Wishing the desire for oblivion away, or medicating the feelings that accompany that desire, is something I’ve decided against.

Dee74

sounds like AV to me

I was utterly convinced that craving oblivion was a natural way for me to be given my life and history.

I realise now I'd given no decent amount of time to not craving oblivion.

I no longer crave oblivion.

I gave up drinking, faced my demons, and grew and changed as a result of that experience.

Noone should ever settle for craving oblivion IMO

D

GerandTwine

Congratulations, I believe you are making some positive movement towards taking a realistic position that will ultimately result in the destruction of your rhythmic cycling into and out of oblivion.

A rythym with desires and pangs just like eating/starving, breathing/suffocating, or copulating/celibacy.

Of course, the difference being, if you starve/suffocate THIS one you will return to human being.

daredevil

GT,

It's taking longer than I'd like, but the endgame is permanent abstinence.

I still find reprieve in the bottle, sufficiently that I've been willing to bear the consequences.

The benefits aren't entirely illusory, but net-net, best I give it up-sooner than later.

GerandTwine

I think “best I give it up - sooner than later” is the end-game, winner still unkown. To me, permanent abstinence is “game over”. (Neo stopping the bullets with his upheld hand in that apartment hallway. Or imagine Neo doing whack-a-mole mentally behind his back before the moles even make it out of the holes.)

JeffreyAK

You make it sound like you're a passenger, the train is delayed and it's beyond my control. But you are the only person who sets the timetable, so you get to decide what longer is, or what you'd really like.

It sounds like you want to continue this drinking/stopping for a bit/drinking cycle, and that's your choice. One of three things will result. You may be able to keep this up indefinitely without major negative consequences, and some people manage to do that. You may eventually decide to quit entirely, before or after you start accumulating major negative consequences. Or you may spiral all the way down the hole and die like so many have done before you. But you get to make the decisions.

dwtbd

As long as the AV defines/equates drunkenness as the only source of reprieve( and you aquiesce ) the longer permanent abstinence will allude you .

August252015

So I've hesitated to get back into this conversation....and after realizing I had at least a smidge of ego and judgment in my posts to you, I have a couple things to add/ask from a sincere place of curiosity: (from several people just commenting and from you DD)

"Game over" to me is to die sober. Nothing short. I'd be in this third category above that JeffreyAK points out if I don't stay sober- and fast.

Here's curiosity: how long do you envision this path to abstinence that you are taking ending in that result?

Also, so much of what you say is from the intellectual/rational/academic even POV - what about the more emotional? Things like how does it make you FEEL to think of craving oblivion as a good thing (I'm with Dee on this one- boy did I spend a lot of time doing exactly that)?

And I forget- have you shared things about your relationships and interactions with folks in your life? Are they "good"? Good enough?

Just some $0.02 and such this morning after my early AA mtg.

daredevil

After reading a couple of the responses, several things have become clear.

Evidence has shown that when I drink, I binge.
That when I binge, bingeing in the ensuing days is more likely largely to offset the malaise resulting from the binge.
And nothing good has come of bingeing (with the exception of oblivion, which is transient).

Next time I want to binge, I'll know that all factors considered, it's not worth it.

So I won't do it.

With that, I suppose, I have secured permanent abstinence.

dwtbd

Permanent abstinence requires that even if you do evaluate the worth-ness as a net positive, you still don't do it. ( Obviously, obvious , but worth consideration)

daredevil

That's true.

Whether I desire oblivion or whether I find similar reprieve elsewhere is immaterial. I think I'll always desire it, but going forward, I will not indulge the desire.

I believe that is permanent abstinence.

lessgravity

DD - so much ambivalence here, though I like where the scales are tilting, concerned with the fact there is anything on the other side, weighing against sobriety.

As an attorney, in voir dire, I often say to a jury regarding their hesitancy to commit to a verdict that they would not want to get on a flight where, before takeoff, the captain says "I suppose I will be able to land this plan in Cincinnati. I hope I am able to do so".

The same lack of commitment is apparent in your post.

August252015

One thing I'll add....IMO, IME and through 852 days of recovery to date - permanent abstinence is completely different than permanent recovery.

The latter, which I also frame as maintaining emotional sobriety, is the means by which I have found the freedom and the clear headed decision making and indeed the joy in sobriety - recovery is so much more than simply not drinking.

daredevil

Permanent abstinence is sufficient for me. I don't believe in emotional sobriety. I am glad, however, that you have found what you're looking for in terms of your recovery.

August252015

Why don't you believe in emotional sobriety?

GerandTwine

Your back foot is in the air and has ALMOST followed you across the threshhold. To keep it from getting stuck there, freezing you there, you must include ALL drinking, not just drinking to oblivion.

“You’ve done good, DD, of course there’s no need for oblivion, too many problems. When the time comes, though, you’ll certainly be able to manage a little glass of wine or a beer, or maybe even one classy vodka martini on that special occasion when [insert an event here].”

But maybe that’s what you meant by “similar reprieve elsewhere”. Were you also excluding moderate drinking within your permanent abstinence? In that case, you’re through.

And a final congratulations!

Carlotta

I do believe in it and not only for alcoholics but for everyone. It's always amazing to see grown adults having meltdowns and throwing tantrums but it happens and no, not just with alcoholics.

Think how many people have lost jobs and destroyed relationships because they could not handle frustrations and were incapable of coming themselves down and behave like grown up rational beings.

Also think about how many people really mess up their lives because all they care for is instant gratification and wear blinders and won't look at the bigger long term picture.

Emotional sobriety (or emotional maturity) is something which is important and allows us to function and adjust to society.

I once saw a grown man throw a tantrum and stomp his feet; red in the face and with tearful eyes because he was late registering for something and had missed the deadline (his fault). That person was not an alcoholic that I know of but obviously had no emotional sobriety.

Just go hang out on FB for a bit and see some of the crazy drama people stir up and post publicly!! A friend of mine was recently terminated from her job because she had to vent out her frustrations in public. She would have been better off doing some meditation or listing the pros and cons and taking action if she came to the conclusion that she could not handle it. Instead, she acted impulsively, posted her true feelings about the people at her job and got canned.

Meltdowns, tantrums, yelling, screaming, wanting your way and wanting it now show someone who is emotionally immature and lacks emotional sobriety and unless you are a billionaire (then people put up with it), it carries consequences.

daredevil

I agree that emotional maturity is imperative. It's important to know how to act, react, respond, and interact properly given various situations across social dimensions. I wouldn't call it emotional sobriety, because it's not a skill limited to former addicts and alcoholics.

Calling it emotional sobriety is just another entanglement in the language of recovery. But I do agree with your overall assessment.