daredevil

tursiops999: I just recently read a thread of yours, and I can only say I hope and wish I have the same resolve presented with similar circumstances. I hope everything with you is going well. I value your contributions.

Fusion

Thank you Daredevil, I appreciate your kind words. I just wanted to say, from personal experience, that the “no matter what” can be effective, in the face of desire. I know my brain is habituated to lighten my load, bring me pleasure, remove my anxiety and fears: but sadly, it fixated upon alcohol, instead of more life-affirming actions! I do hope you don’t drink today.

Wholesome

I understood before I made my BP that my greatest tragedies were my Beast's greatest opportunities because before I made it I'd been through several really bad tragedies and drinking didn't help me through a single one of them, in fact they made them all worse. I would rather face life's obstacles sober, no matter how hard they are. Plus I just don't drink. Period.

JeffreyAK

Why would a calamity be any different from a lazy Sunday afternoon? The results would be the same: My situation gets far worse that it was before I drank, not better in any way. I would now have two problems - my original calamity, which won't just go away, plus a new one, a fresh re-invigorated drinking problem. I would trade one problem for two, and the second one would quickly turn horrible.

I don't believe in beasts or voices or anything, to me I'm just me - and that me knows perfectly well and with total certainty that absolutely nothing good would come from me drinking alcohol under any circumstances. I know this from long past experience, and it's kinda like knowing that the sun will rise tomorrow morning - it just is, without any doubts. And once I understood this, years ago, I found that my desire to drink faded, and is now gone. Sure, random thoughts may pass by, but even that has become very rare, and I'll go a couple years before I find myself wandering to "wouldn't that taste good...." and then passing the thought along it's way without acting or taking it seriously in any way.

daredevil

Algo: I hope you are doing well, with the health condition you articulated. Your insight is always appreciated (by me). That said, if I want to, and choose to, drink, how is my beast? Does the separation only happen post-quitting, or post-familiarity with ABVT?

And, if you encountered a calamity where it wouldn’t be a direct noticeable detriment to your health, would you drink over it?

daredevil

JeffreyAK: you said you have had no desire to drink, no PAWS, and take no meds: how long will it take me to get to that point? When I was sober for 5 months, after 3 months, I was pretty good. Does that sound about right?

daredevil

fini: would you drink post-calamity? Why or why not?

GerandTwine

Short excerpts from p. 206-8 from “Rational Recovery, The New Cure ...” by Jack Trimpey, 1996

Attack Your Beast

Here’s how to attack your Beast. Address it as if it were another person in this way: “You keep trying to convince me that there are good reasons for me to drink alcohol. I just want to hear one good reason why I should drink alcohol, now or in the future. Why should I drink? ...

In desperation your Beast will resort to extremely unlikely scenarios to prove that your Big Plan has holes in it. “Suppose,” it may begin, “you are in a country where the drinking water is unsafe, and you are extremely thirsty, and the only beverage is bottled beer or wine. Wouldn’t you drink something then?” Or it may suggest, “Supposing you suddenly learn that a nuclear war has already begun and the missiles are in the air, and there are only thirty minutes left until the end of everything. What’s the difference what you do then?”...

At first these unlikely scenarios may create a real sense of conflict, which is exactly your Beast’s purpose in resorting to such arguments. But just ask yourself, “What are the actual chances of any of these situations arising?” You will quickly see that the probability is almost zero. Then, recognize that the Beast is attempting to use impossibly low odds to justify its position. Deep pleasure is all it wants, and it will use any warped logic to get it.

But there is something even more sinister in the contrived logic of the Beast, as we may see in the idea of using nuclear war to justify drinking alcohol. What kind of Beast is this that would barter the entire human race and the planet Earth itself for a lousy drink? This example was actually presented ... by a bright man who was struggling with his Big Plan. He said, “I can see not drinking under the usual circumstances, but if the bombs were falling, I know what I would do. I would grab a twelve pack [or litre of vodka] and go to the top of a hill where I could see it happen and go out with a buzz on. ...

[He was asked] Now suppose that you were unable to get any alcohol. Think carefully. What would you do then? The man paused, and tears came to his eyes. “I would hold my family close. They would be afraid. I would want to be with the ones I love. I would not want to be drunk with so little time left.”

A woman considering a Big Plan found that her worst case scenario would be the death of her daughter. She was shocked to realize that her Beast would cash in on tragedy that way, in effect saying, “You shouldn’t have to feel the pain of loss.” She realized, of course, that there is no grief without loss of love, and that the Beast was attempting to deny her the most meaningful emotions that she could experience. She recognized an odd smirking awareness about the possibility of drinking under those conditions.

...

AVRT is Effortless

There is no reason, ever, to negotiate or attempt to reason with your Beast. You will struggle if you do. ...

- End quotes -

AVRT = Addictive Voice Recognition Technique

Fusion

Forgot to mention, Daredevil, after thanking you for your condolences. I lost an extremely close member of my family. My Beast’s AV raised its saddo little ineffectual voice, but my BP is intact, why wouldn’t it be, because I didn’t need to do a CBA.

Carlotta

Hi Daredevil. I have over 5 years sober and I am not on any meds and I mostly feel content and at peace with life.
I meditate on a daily basis and it really helps.

I am the caretaker for my friend who was recently diagnosed with stage 3A lung cancer and given a 20% chance of cure and an average 2 year life expectancy. I lost my best friend 15 years ago to lung cancer

It hit me hard but thankfully, I had no thoughts of drinking but I started feeling anxiety about it and had a few anxiety attacks when I felt like someone was strangling me and I couldn't breathe and was choking.

I went to see an hypnotist who is also a Chakra worker. She hypnotized me and also cleared up my throat and heart chakras and it really worked for for me. I have been anxiety free for almost a week now.

Anyway, 5+ years sober, no meds, no meetings, no paws and feeling balanced most of the time.

daredevil

GT: a calamity is not always an unlikely scenario. It takes one to know one: BP notwithstanding, anyone who has been through one, knows, that despite the unbreakable pledge, it’s not that hard for alcoholics (ex-drinkers, non-drinkers, formerly-addicted, or any derivation thereof) to start drinking again.

soberista

As above. No meds here just play the tape and ignore the AV which pipes up less and less. 6 months sober tomorrow.

Fusion

Oh Daredevil, I’ve read back on your posts, and please forgive me if I’m incorrect....but perhaps you don’t want to stop drinking, maybe you want to moderate, or become a normal social drinker? If so, I also believe you know the response of SR folks to those ‘wants’, from their hard learnt experiences........

Algorithm

Your Beast would be fine in that case. It wanted to be fed, asked to be fed, and you agreed that it must indeed be fed.

It helps to understand that in addiction, as a state of ambivalence, there are, in fact, two survival mentalities competing with each other for control. The AV is a comprehensive style of thinking centered around the mandate of just one of those mentalities, and serves to both protect and further its own interests.

Most of the time, the forlorn addict simply lives out the dictates of their Addictive Voice, as if it were Gospel, and the Beast were a higher power unto itself. Every now and again, however, usually after some disaster brought on by living out said Gospel, the other, native survival mentality gets a grip. The AV breaks down, at least temporarily.

This provides an opportunity to take strong action against the Beast. Most of the time, that opportunity is wasted, and in time, the Beast reorganizes, as it must. Sometimes, however, it leads to the definitive awakening, rather than a gradual return into the chain, if I might borrow from Albert Camus.

That definitive awakening, of course, is what comes from finally expelling that rogue mentality from consciousness, by finally recognizing it as ego-alien. As separate from self.

Familiarity with AVRT can provide a framework for understanding, but by itself, it will no more bring about the necessary separation than a hammer will drive in a nail. It is simply a tool, contrived for the purpose of living comfortably with residual addictive desire.

Who is asking this question? You, or your Beast?

daredevil

Tatsy, I want to stay stopped. I can live my best life only if I do so.

GerandTwine

Of course, the Beast loves a low calamity threshhold = the Beast loves more rather than fewer reasons to drink.

It also loves the idea that it’s not that hard for alcoholics with an unbreakable pledge to start drinking again.

daredevil

Does it matter?
Is it not a legitimate question?

JeffreyAK

I don't know for you, for me I didn't really feel stable until I was 10 months sober, before that I felt kinda scared, I suppose - scared that some tiger was going to jump out from behind the next bush, and I was going to suddenly start drinking again. Something might happen and I'd lose control. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me now, but I guess at the time it was totally new psychological territory, and the weight of how badly shaken I had been still seemed heavy. So I did a lot of planning out my days, went to a lot of meetings, and spent a lot of energy on it all. But it all worked out, so no complaints - that's the only important thing, I didn't drink.

I guess it was 18 months for me before I'd say I was fully recovered and didn't feel a need for all that planning and organization, I was fully confident that there were no tigers behind any bushes, and I was always going to be in control. That's the sort of time frame people talk about for recovery from other major life events, like a divorce, and having gone through one of those too many years ago, that seems about right - up to 2 years before you're fully over it.

Fusion

Daredevil, are you still alcohol free, and if so, are you safely beyond the withdrawal stage?

fini

no.
why or why not?
not to be flippant, but it really is irrelevant to what happens in my life.
there are those fleeting random thoughts that Jeffrey mentioned, but they are also not relevant.

but i know from my past that there is irrational stuff mixed into these things, and i am not immune to that.

and i have seen, plenty of times in my sober years, that calamities don't result in relapse any more than ordinary stress or a promotion at work or a friendly get- together and feeling left out, irrationally .so i think the emphasis on calamity is misplaced and just a screen for the more obvious " but i can drink if something really baaaad happens, yes??????? YES!!!!!!"