August252015

So here's my last contribution so I don't seem argumentative as you seem to enjoy being, with essentially an insult to everyone's contribution.

Here are the things I do for my recovery, as I have shared MANY times here on SR:
AA - my sweet spot right now is 4-6 meetings a week.
A study and devotional routine that I do every morning- 5 things I spend about an hour on
Carefully choosing with and to whom I give my time, attention and love
Service to others- I run a recovery group for the restaurant industry
I also have two sponsees right now
I nap often, I do yoga 4-6 x a week and right now PT for a back injury - which circles around to meds: I am NOT taking any painkillers for my back bc my ortho, psych and I agreed that's not a good idea based on my honesty about being inclined to take pills in that vein more often than rx

So getting to drugs, happy to share as I usually do what I took and take now, if you're interested but it would be repeating myself. None now directly relate to drinking as they first did in my early sobriety - they all speak to emotional balance and the mental health issues that are very real in my life, and can be addressed exactly BC I am sober.

I am grateful that these drugs exist for people like me. They are merely supplements to my surrender to this beautiful life in recovery that I have now.

I tend to my beautiful family - my husband and 16 year old step daughter.

There are about a million other things I do to live my best life.

Best to you for choosing and living your best life.

dwtbd

DD
I'd say from your remarks that you are using the wrong definition of an alcoholic.

The def that says an alcoholic is someone that has a desire for intoxication is addicted to alcoholic , is unable to remain abstinent. That the presence of a desire is the sole impetus for alcohol consumption. This is the AVs definition.

The actual definition is in your OP , that you are neither happy nor sad about your consumption, you are ambivalent to alcohol consumption. Use of the AV's definition blinds you to the operative effect of recognizing the 'truer' definition. The fact that you are ambivalent allows the AV definition to be operative ,i.e. drinking ensues in the presence of desire.

Being a common teetotaler has everything to do with 'ending' the ambivalence and very little , if any, to do with the presence of desire.

daredevil

Therein lies the rub fini.

Therein lies my perennial inability to stay stopped.

I drink, then I'm miserable for a few days.
I feel better.
Start racking up some time.
Figure it's okay to drink again.

Fusion

Have you googled this decades neuroscience regarding addictions? That’s how I stopped drinking, and ironically, it was using a tool that was developed on the back of 1990s understanding of the then, neuroscience, on the back of eons of self-recovered, without the benefit of neuroscience.

At the risk of upsetting folks who believe in the disease model (and believe me, I know it works for some on SR, when they rely on their Higher Power, absolutely) but it was ONLY when I took responsibility for whether, or not, I acted on my thoughts, that I stopped my previous 20 plus year addiction, the last five of which were all day every day.....equivalent of a litre of vodka a day.

I stopped drinking by learning and fully subsuming that my thoughts were just that. Random thoughts, habituated, programmed as a child, programmed by society. The thoughts that say that a drink will remove uneasy, uncomfortable feelings, depression, PTSD, stress; or conversely, prolong or damp down happy feelings!

I learnt that my brain became habituated and likened alcohol as an elixir to cure any feeling, good, bad, indifferent or bored. I also learnt that, like riding a bike, or riding a horse, or flying a sail plane, my drinking habit had been encoded, or programmed into my sub-conscious brain.

Remember when you learnt to ride a bike, or drive a car, how difficult it was - then eureka, the skills required were transferred from your pre-frontal cortex to your sub-conscious and it became effortless. This is neuroplasticity at work and I learnt that provided I abstained, neuro plasticity also worked in reverse, so abstinence became the new norm, given time.

But I also learnt that the neuronal loops associated with the alcohol fix, can fire up to their old level, the instant I take a drink. You can’t unlearn riding a bike, same is true with the alcohol fix for feelings. Therefore I decided to never drink again. No matter what the pain, the agony, the fear, the happiness, I will never imbibe to lessen, or heighten any random thought or feeling I have (I call it my AV, others call it their disease talking).

So, that was the drink addiction sorted. Then I used bloody mindedness to reinforce that I was in control of my brain.

And I did. And I threw myself in at the deep end. Booked a caving experience that terrified me a few weeks after my stop date. Darkness, confined spaces, absailing, via faretta: CHECK! Concerts, socialising (after becoming a home alone drunk) CHECK!

Daredevil, you’d be surprised how capable you are at turning your drinking career around, if you really, 100% and without reservation, committed to anything: AA, SMART, AVRT, Freedom Model, SR.......all it takes is BELIEF in YOURSELF! Belief that you are not your thoughts, the AV/disease with its siren call for drink. You are more than that. You are not akin to Pavlov’s dogs.

JeffreyAK

Not sure why you say that, it's not true. Some people use medications to help them, naltrexone, antabuse, etc., but you'll find most do not. There are no magic pills, and nothing will "make" you quit if you don't want to quit, more than you want to continue drinking. What seems to help the largest number of people is recovery-related activity, i.e. meetings and social interactions with people following parallel paths and going through the same sorts of issues. That isn't necessarily a particular "program", though it could be, but at least it includes elements of programs - urge surfing tools for example, planning structure into your days, making contingency plans, and building new ways to react to things like stress.

The situation you describe, drink/feel miserable/feel better/figure it's ok to drink again, is totally normal, but the next step doesn't have to be "drink", it can be "do something other than drink until the urge goes away, and make that the top priority in my life".

Wholesome

I would wager that that's the experience of pretty much every single person on here, I know it was mine. I tried to control my drinking for years, I had all kinds of crazy rules, that I would break, sometimes just hours after I'd made them. It was very exhausting and disheartening. It wasn't until I fully accepted that the drinking had to be over, for good, that I was able to stop trying and start doing. Like Yoda says, "Do, or do not. There is no try." I used AVRT to quit, it's a how-to on how to quit and stay quit. The idea is not to remove the desire like other methods, or to treat some underlying condition, but to stay abstinent despite the desire to drink. It's not even about removing the AV or fighting against it, it's about not letting yourself be ruled by that voice in your head that talks you into drinking again, even though the real you knows better.

dwtbd

No such inability exists.

The longer you choose to ascribe to this false notion , the longer you will not exercise your natural ability to abstain.

ScottFromWI

That's pretty much the textbook description of the problem we all faced at some point. IMHO, the solution needs to be applied in the "racking up time" phase. AKA "having a plan". What that plan is varies as greatly as there are people in the world, but when you "figure its okay to drink again" that's a clear indicator that you either don't have a plan or you aren't following it.

I can't tell you what kind of plan you should make, but I can tell you that insulting other people or making light of their plans/methods should not be part of it. The arrogance others suggest is palpable in your posts as well - and that won't help you in any way either. I understand that many of the methods here in Secular are much more focused on the individual than a group type recovery, but to be quite frank you need to start listening to what others have to say and letting them help you. Your Ego is working against you, not for you.

fini

Quote:




so the issue is that you want permanent abstinence but temporarily the big picture of wanting permanent abstinence doesn't carry you through the immediate wanting of what you want now?

Therein lies the rub fini.

Therein lies my perennial inability to stay stopped.

I drink, then I'm miserable for a few days.
I feel better.
Start racking up some time.
Figure it's okay to drink again.

well, i was talking about "want". now you are talking about screwy thinking.
that is a different issue, though it leads you to the same result.

you do not have an inability to stop permanently.
from here, it looks like you perennially decide not to do what works for others as you think you already know better, yet it is your very thinking that screws you over after racking up some time.

maybe you do not know who you are, with respect to this?

in any case, just FYI, i am on no drugs that relate to addiction, alcoholism, emotions, psych.
though i do use my Asthma inhaler and my blood pressure meds daily and will take an ibuprofen if i have a giant headache

this is doable, daredevil.
doable by you.

Fusion

LOL, me too. No meds here to do with alcohol addiction, zilch, I’m now in complete control of my brain. Yes, there’s times when the AV kicks in, but I note and ignore it: neuro plasticity takes care of the rest.

The only meds I take are for, like fini, asthma.....probably exacerbated by having lots of dogs, cats, sheep and a horse....mega LOL. But I’m happy to take asthma inhalers to live with my loved ones. My horse was a focus and goal of stopping drinking, because there was no way I could care for a horse whilst inebriated. What is your focus, DD?

Whilst drinking I took a blood pressure medication. A year after stopping drinking or so, I no longer require a blood pressure medication.

Now, at, blimey, calculating here, at almost 21months alcohol free, I rarely think of drinking; and if “I” do, it’s not ME, it’s my “AV”: which I note and ignore. Then I move on in my fabulous sober life.

aasharon90

Many of us had to seek outside help,
outside ourselves to help us learn how
to remain sober via a rehab facility.

I tried so many times to quit on my
own and failed so many times until
family stepped in to help and place
me into the hands of those capable
of teaching me about my own addiction
and its affects on my mind and body.

Yep, for a long time I thought I
could take care of my addiction
on my own, handle it and stop
anytime I wanted. My pride and
know it all eventually came to a
screeching halt when the authorities
came to pick me up and take me
to the hospital.

It was there that I surrendered
all that I thought I knew or didn't
know about addiction and became
willing, openminded and honest
to begin working a program of
recovery in my everyday life there
after.

I spent 28 days in rehab, a safe place
away from the temptation of alcohol
while getting all the toxins and poisons
out of my body and allowed the fog
to clear in my sight so I could begin
to see what lied ahead of me.

Not everyone has to take meds and
I was very grateful I was one of them.
It wasn't until many yrs sober down
the road that I did seek help for my
anxiety for awhile which helped till
I no longer needed it.

Today, im extremely grateful to be
sober since the very first full sober
day beginning 8-11-90 with continuous
recovery every day since for some 27
yrs now with no meds to rely on for
anything.

However, I do know that I can use my
continuous recovery program to help
me remain sober each day and a physician
if necessary letting them know that with
out a doubt, that if any medication is to
be administered that it not be narcostic
or habit forming. Being completely honest
and firm with them letting them know
that my sobriety and recovery is extremely
important to me and I wont let anyone or
anything mess with it. Period.

Yes, it takes an awful lot of work on
a daily bases to remain sober or clean.
It's not just about not drinking, but is
about changing our ways, our thinking,
the ways we deal with everyday life,
with people we work with, family we
live with, strangers, etc.

We have to learn how to live life
without being numb all the time.
Too numb or inebriated to deal
with everyday situations. Learning
not to be selfish, selfcentered, self
absorbed. Being dishonest, stealing,
unfaithful, but rather putting other
folks before our selfish needs.

To be kind, understanding, teachable.
Learn to care, communicate, responsible.

Addiction robs us of everything and everyone
that is special in our lives. We don't have to
live with addiction anymore. Reach out and
except the hand that wants to lead and teach
you how to live life sober or clean. Addiction
free.

GerandTwine

Hi daredevil,

I haven’t read any of your other posts, but you landed in a forum of SR that I frequent. Welcome. And to the others following in the tailwinds.

A liter of vodka over 50 hours or so, that sounds about right to me.
You got what you wanted. If I think about it hard, a part of me is a little jealous. It also sounds to me like you’re doing pretty well; capable, sociable, willing to take chances, but understanding and wanting stability. And you’re here, you want permanent abstinence, and are asking for help.

You know it would be best for you never, ever again, at any time, for the rest of your life, to swallow alcohol. Why won’t/can’t you just do it; what’s preventing you from taking the pledge? Is it that time factor that keeps changing your conviction? You’re not alone.

Addictive Voice Recognition Technique can put you in a very advantageous position to take the once-in-a-lifetime pledge of permanent abstinence.

Here’s a couple exercises to set up a foundation for AVRT if you want to try it out.

Take your non-dominant hand and make it into a fist. Take your dominant hand and wrap it over the top of the fist like a five tentacled octopus grabbing the fist. This blob of hand flesh and bones that you are looking at represents your brain.

With this simple structural model of your brain, the fist represents the ancient, primitive part that has kept you alive; the vibrant spark of replicating life you possess that can be traced without interruption back billions of years. We’ll call it the mid-brain. Now, this is important, it’s totality is Pleasure Seeking and pain prevention. As human’s we “know” that all that pleasure seeking keeps us alive, but the human neocortex is only a several million years old. The pleasure drivers of life are billions of years old.

Your dominant hand, wrapping over and grasping control of your fist, represents your neocortex, with all your uniquely human attributes; and this is important, it posessses your ability to inhibit pleasure seeking with YOUR total control of all your voluntary muscles. Human society is completely dependent upon how, when, and why we control of our animalistic midbrain pleasure seeking appetites; breathing, sleeping, eating/drinking, passing waste, and procreating.

Everyone here has been quite intimate with our own appetites for booze. Well, AVRT calls this central nervous duality “the structural model of addiction” and uses it to clearly identify the strength and weaknesses of the unwanted appetite for booze.

IT, your midbrain, wants to drink some more, but YOU, your neo-cortex knows you’d better abstain permanently because you’ve done enough moderation experiments and they don’t work.

Now, lets call the five fingers of the fist hand your basic survival appetites, breathing being the thumb, and the other four food, sleep, waste, sex. Now, stick your fist thumb representing breathing out from the fist and pointing towards you. That represents you consciously recognizing that appetite and deciding to hold your breath. You’ve temporarily evicted that appetite from its midbrain functioning and you have started the process of voluntarily trying to suffocate yourself. (It won’t work, because you’d pass out first and start breathing involuntarily again). Holding your breath for a long time can cause a lot of unpleasant thoughts and feelings along with the huge demand for more oxygen. It’s like a phormer drunk’s first several weeks, or even months.

So, this is what we want to do with the appetite for booze. Start over with the hand representation but also take a pencil or pen and hold it in the fist hand with the extra length sticking out away from you so you can’t see it. This represents the state of addiction. You’ve got the invasive deep pleasure based appetite for booze, and you haven’t recognized it as such, YET. All this time, make sure your dominant hand is clawlike grasping your fist.

Now, push the pen/pencil through your fist so the extra length sticks out towards you. This represents that you are learning Addictive Voice Recognition Technique. YOU SEE IT. There it is. It’s obvious in its difference from your fingers, but it’s still there in your fist. A survival based appetite for booze with all the ancient demanding forces of the other appetites.

Now, take the pen/pencil out of your fist and put it in your shirt pocket or somewhere where you can still see it. This represents taking the once in a lifetime pledge of permanent abstinence. The appetite to drink some more does still exist, but you have removed it forever, from any possible connection to your voluntary muscles.

Drinking alcohol is such an obvious and deliberate event, that it is patently obvious that permanent abstinence can be acheived perfectly. Your midbrain, or in AVRT, the BEAST, cannot get you to drink any more than that pencil in your pocket can get you to drink. If you want to get dramatic, you can stuff and cut off the finger of a glove, or you can go to the Costume/Halloween/Party store and buy a plastic finger and put that in your pocket as a representation of your AV’s inability to get you to drink.

——————————

Here’s another exercise.
In this exercise the fist represents only the unwanted appetite for booze.

Put your hands back in the BEAST fist and NeoCortex wrap over it again.
Look at it and imagine the motives of each regarding drinking some more.

IT wants more of that deep pleasure sooner or later, it doesn’t really matter, when the desire gets strong enough YOU will feel the demand to mobilize and repeat the habit.

YOU are toying with what NEVER having that deep pleasure any more, ever again means. You see your life spread out behind you, and what may come ahead of you if you drink, or if you quit forever.

While you look at your hands in front of you some more, be aware, the human YOU, your dominant hand wrapping around, have absolute and complete control over whether it will be able to get to swallow that next first drink.

Now, experiment with the sentence “I will never drink again” and at the same time separate your hands a little bit while keeping them in the same shape. Next, open up your claw shaped neocortex hand all the way and face the palm towards you. At the same time move the Beast fist gradually away and move it around, but never let it get completely out of you perriferal line of vision. Then, directly in front of you, wiggle some or all the fingers of your neocortex hand all around in various deliberate motions.

The Beast is detached and hovering, but still there. You are going ahead and living your life while recognizing the Beast and it’s AV barking. If that fist starts moving closer to your open hand with wiggling fingers, it’s easy to just bat it away to the very edge of your view. There’s no need to imagine that it must disappear, because having that Beast is not a sign of disease or weakness, it is a sign that you have a healthy midbrain with appetite drives that keep you alive. That one, though, is one you can decidedly never again act upon.

If you have an interest in AVRT, and are willing to use it to take personal responsibility for both your addiction and your recovery, then you have completed over 90% of all the work and struggles related to your addiction and your recovery.

AVRT is a dissociative technique that isolates the appetite for alcoholic pleasure and renders it powerless - all the time, every time. I hope you choose to learn it and get on with the rest of your life.

GT

daredevil

GT: thank you for your thoughtful post. I’m sure it will help many, as it did me. You’re right: I have a good life—I just can’t beat the drink.

Tatsy: I am happy that you’re happy. As I said before I find your posts measured and incisive. I like the way you think and your approach to things is sensible.

Fini: I’d appreciate if you restate the question. I am not sure how to answer it, but your posts are thought provoking. You’re definitely on to something, and I’d like to discuss it in further detail.

Tomsteve: what does having a ‘massive attitude’ have to do with sobriety? Nothing, from what I can tell. You haven’t offered anything to help me abstain permanently. And to the people who thanked your post: being passive-aggressive is worse, in my opinion, than being a drunk.

Dee: as always, I appreciate your contributions to my threads. I find them helpful.

JeffreyAK: in rehab, they routinely dispensed AD's and sleep meds. A lot of people here seem to credit their recovery program for keeping them sober. Take away the AD’s, the anti-anxiety meds, the sleep meds, the anti-craving meds, and I suspect they’d be drinking in no time.

fini

couple of things: 12-stp topics are out of bounds for this forum, so that retricts the open discussion of all alternatives and suggestions, as well as relating of a lot of personal experiences.

just to keep thatin mind, as it limits how some of us can express what we have to share. if you seriously want a more inclusive array of views and eperiences, repost in the general Alcoholism forum and the field will be wider.

as for my question about knowing who you are with regards to this. it springs from my own experience of myself as an alcoholic. meaning: i cannot control my use of alcohol, ie i cannot moderate or any such thing. I tried for thirty years with all kinds of rules and could not make that work. i know the crazy talk of "this time will be different!" and having it turn out just the same.

when i understood and accepted, at the deepest level possible, that it would in fact never ever be different, that that is what being an alcoholic means with regards to drinking, that permanent abstinence was the only way forward for me ....then the crazy " Figure it's okay to drink again" found no foothold.because i knew and know without a doubt that it will never be okay to drink again.

that, to me, is what it means to know who i am with regards to drinking.

Cosima11

What I've seen in your posts is an ambivalence towards AA.. I could not make out what side of the fence you were on.

Now you're posting in secular connections inviting AAers to add their two cents and then shooting them down. My advice would be to pick a side.. Or don't, declare yourself neutral and then take on the responsibility of finding what works for you, rather than focusing on what you don't like and what doesn't work. Debating over recovery methods can take the focus off the actual issue, it seems.

If you think you need AA to stay sober, then you do. If you think you need meds to stay sober, you do. If you take away all the labels and formulas and just get really clear on what your bottom line is.. it gets a lot simpler.

I haven't read through all the replies here but Tatsys post is spot on imo.

JeffreyAK

I'm not sure where you were, but where I went they wouldn't prescribe psych meds like ADs to recovering addicts until they had been sober 6 months, before that there's too much other stuff going on to get a good diagnosis and appropriate meds. If people were already on them, fine, but I didn't see much of that in the outpatient program I went to.

Crediting a recovery program isn't the same thing as taking medications. You can follow a program, any program including one craft yourself, and not take meds, and that's what most people do.

But if you think medications will help, by all means see a doctor and give it a try, they do help some people. But I've never seen them substitute for a strong conviction that it's time to stop drinking, and a willingness to do whatever it takes to ensure that you stay stopped.

Snowydelrico

Hi DD, hope you’re well.
After years of quitting and failing it got harder and harder to take on the challenge to quit as I knew the effort that was needed was everything I had.

It helped having the realisation that one drink was not possible for me.
I know I couldn’t go through trying to quit again.
Maybe one day you will reach this point.( although I think maybe it’s the long way round)

For me one drink is to give up on life/a death sentence.
No meds required, just pure logic and fact.

Quitting still remains the best thing I have done.
Good luck DD

Gottalife

No mate, that’s the definition of a drunk. There is a difference.

The drunk could sober up if he would,
The alcoholic would sober up, if he could.

I have no doubt you are smarter than me. I came to my method of recovery with a higher than average quotient of stupidity, with my iq down around my shoe size. Alcoholism can do that to a person.
Gullibility was another part of my nature back then. Yet neither thing was a barrier to recovery. I was still able to find permanent recovery, thankfully without any mind altering drugs. They were not big on prescribing back then, especially when my real problem was so obvious.

The guy that called me the morning after my last drink probably saved my life. He suffered from what was then called manic depression, as well as alcoholism. He needed to take lithium to be stable. He hated it, and on several,occasions he tried to cut it out. When he did, he went high, thought it was alright to drink, and in a short time was in a padded cell. It took months to stabilize him again.

He eventually accepted his condition, and has been sober and a very valuable member of my fellowship, for a very long time. Now he is dealing with kidney failure due to the lithium.

In my experience it is quite rare, but over the years I have met a handful of people with serious mental and emotional disorders who have been able to find permanent recovery provided they follow their doctors directions as regards treatment for other illness. Not to do so can have devastating consequences, compared to which taking a drink can look trivial.

GerandTwine

These two quotes are a day and a half apart.

Notice how the first post was very reasoned, logical, to the point, reflecting a strong understanding of the situation with openness and vulnerability for new and possibly productive feedback and discussion.

This is because after a binge there is a period of clarity while the BEAST of booze has been placated and its Addictive Voice bark has temporarily fallen almost silent. This is just like after any appetite is sated; clarity within the afterglow, relaxation, reflection, all that nice stuff.

And the fact that the host human landed in Secular Connections was a stroke of genius of his human intelligence. He knew something could be wrong with his whole direction of recovery and knew this was the right forum to get on a new track.

In the second quote, though, we notice that the AV is starting to bark again. Clarity of what is in play is avoided. No movement towards any further learning. “...it did [help] me.” Notice the past tense like it’s over. “Yikes! All that structural model stuff with the hands and all. That’s enough. No more AVRT needed. Whew!” All BEAST.

I would not be surprised if the human host can recognize a deep seated terror building within that maybe, just maybe, this might be getting close to the end of not only the ridiculous assaults of deep pleasure from alcohol that are ruining his life, but also the end of an immersion in an ongoing recovery Way of Life as an Alcoholic which is unnecessary and actually antithetical to becoming simply a permanent abstainer whose never drinking again uses up none of his future time and effort.

That terror, of course, is ALL Addictive Voice.

I also bet, he can recognize an inkling of, “YES, of course I can “beat the drink!” Or more accurately, “Of course I can abstain perfectly and forever from picking up, pouring into my mouth, and swallowing that first drink.” And that can’t help but feel a little bit good.

daredevil

Yup. The AV barked- again. I bit. To the tune of 2/3 of a liter (yesterday).

I have to stop. But I don’t want to. That, in itself, is a problem.