Bulgakova

Dunno Sainos... see in my mind drinking all the time because it feels good is mentally misbalanced. Try applying that to say, masturbation. How healthy is someone that locks themselves up all day every day to self pleasure? And that doesn't even have the rampaging physical destruction of booze.

Being ready to spend that amount of time, mental resources, bodily sacrifice, and money, because something feels good, to me, is for sure a mental health issue. Same as eating fast food three times a day, every day, or steroid training to be Mr Universe. It's compulsion, and lack of internal resources to face compulsion.

Our former selves would die as animals in the woods. We'd get eaten alive while forgetting everything around us while we satisfy our compulsion on repeat.

That said, depending on your view of mental health, I could imagine a revulsion to the idea. But it's not bad news--this stuff is workable.

So what are you gunna do with all that time? You never answered. What are you interested in taking on? I love reading about people's interests

sainos

PS I also get the point about recognizing the statement "I can't drink" as the AV..I would never have thought of that, but yes as jaynie said..it does bring on a sense of deprivation when I said it to myself as opposed to "I don't drink" which is empowering

sainos

Bulgakova, I am well past the point of pondering on the WHYs of drinking. People drink for all sorts of excuses, the bottom line being, because it feels good.
I am only interested in ending it for good. And with AVRT I have done that.
To me, drinking and mental health issues, or any other issues for that matter are a seperate thing. Stop drinking, then if you have mental health issues get them sorted.
I know from past experiences, that good mental health does not protect you against drinking, at least it didn't me. Drinking may cause you mental health issues though, while you are drinking
I don't know yet what I am going to do with myself..I was always complaining about isolation, but I think now, it's me that was doing the isolating, not other people TO me. So for one I will be getting out and about more

sainos

Bulgakova, AVRT gives an explanation of what has gone wrong in the midbrain to cause the want for drink even though it is being so destructive in our lives.
It is a maladaptive survival drive, which AVRT calls the Beast. Although I understand it well and it is working for me, I cannot articulate it very well yet. So maybe if you read some threads on AVRT you will get a better understanding of what I am talking about?

Bulgakova

I have looked into AVRT, and as much as I do like it, I personally think that their take on science is a little outdated. It deals with a more old school of thinking, where they were more compartmentalized in areas of study. Ant totally--reject the hell outta that.

Modern takes are getting more cross disciplined, and are marrying things like cognitive therapy with biology. The disease model is not what it use to be-- in terms of disease getting redefined, and ideas of permanency disappearing. And that is also just one model. Brains are such a new science...

That said, science is surely not everyone's cup of tea, and if it is not pragmatically useful for the individual, for sure chuck it aside. I personally love looking at research, but that is surely my academic background in play.

Anyway, we have different interests and that's okay. But we do have the shared interest of getting out there and socializing, so lets focus on that

I've been finding that my previous assumption that I'm more fun drunk was totally bogus. I'm still my lively goofy self--turns out that had nothing to do with liquid courage. Difference sober though is that I'm a way better listener. I actually have the focus and attention span to let the person finish their thoughts. Much more rewarding.

sainos

Well whatever you chose to believe, I hope it keeps you away from drinking .
AVRT to my understanding, is not a disease model of addiction.
AVRT has shown me a way to end my drinking , and for me, that is an end story. A happy ending.

tursiops999

sainos, going back to your original post, I had a similar experience. Having discovered the key that is AVRT, lots of time and energy has been freed up to focus on all sorts of things that improve my quality of life-- exercise, hobbies, connecting with others around something besides alcohol.

That being said, I still like reading and posting on SR. Even though the basics of AVRT can be learned fairly quickly, I find that my understanding of some of the subtler issues (such as, how doubt and fear can often be the AV itself) took awhile, and continue to evolve.

The 'pay it forward' issue is a big one, too. I don't know where I'd be, really, if I hadn't discovered the AVRT threads and interacted with those posters who are able to express the concepts so clearly. I don't think I'd be drinking, but I might be struggling with those issues of doubt and fear. I now get to live without fear of drinking again, and that is an incredible gift. I'd like to be able to pay that forward.

And I'm still learning how to do that. It seems rather tricky, since so much of what is posted is the AV (including some of my own posts, hopefully less now). I'm trying to learn by example, from the venerated ones here.

Algorithm

It was Trimpey's intention to simplify things with AVRT, and avoid as much scientific confusion as possible. This is why the structural model is simple -- so that addicted people don't get lost in complexity. He is explicitly rejecting the "diseased, hijacked brain" model, and explaining addiction instead as an adaptation, albeit a destructive one, by a healthy brain.

That said, he also predicted that others would eventually 'discover' AVRT, and indeed they have. I recently watched the film "Pleasure Unwoven" by Dr. Kevin McCauley, and he basically says the same thing -- that the old base brain confuses the deep pleasure produced by hedonic drugs with a primary survival mandate.

This film is part of the ATI, and caters to the RGM, so Dr. McCauley, himself 'in recovery', concludes that the base brain is 'hijacked' by drugs, and that the power of choice is rendered null and void by the hijacked brain (aka, the Beast). Therefore, he concludes that addiction is a disease, and that addicts have to manage their sobriety, one-day-at-a-time.

Ultimately, for the purposes of AVRT, it doesn't really matter what the source of the Addictive Voice is, however. It could be Satan himself urging addicted people to get drunk with sweet nothings, and AVRT would still work just as well. AVRT is just the addict's missing moral conscience as it pertains to the use of alcohol and other drugs.

Fusion

Science is 'my cup of tea'. The remarkable point, in my opinion, is that despite AVRT being presented in the mid 1990s; as a simple and straightforward explanation of how folks have self-recovered for eons - the subsequent discoveries of science, specifically neuroscience; have only added credence to it.

Of course there's a cross-over between the old and new brain. Hence the AV can use images, your voice and feelings to suggest drinking as a cure to you feeling out of synch. But the massive advances in neuro-science have credited, not discredited AVRT.

Whereas the rat park experiment and Johann Hari talks, of which you wrote on another thread, have been discredited.

I really don't know your purpose posting here. The OP views himself as recovered. Why would you question that? I too am recovered after applying AVRT. On the back of a two decade addiction.

I also do not subscribe to your view that addiction is a mental health issue. Referencing my rejection of the rat park experiment and its dubious findings: when I crossed over that line after drinking too much, I was successful, content, happy, celebrating my good fortune by drinking!

Then, due to excessive drinking, my success went south and thus, I suffered. My ingrained, learned behaviour, mis-directed survival drive (aka the Beast) suggested, strongly, that I drink even more, because it linked drinking to my success, feeling good, satisfied, better. IT then believed that alcohol was a panacea for all feelings. The good, bad and ugly. A mis-directed survival drive.

sainos

Yes tursiops, I fully intend to keep reading the AVRT threads on here, for exactly the reasons you say.
Once I have my full brain power back and have learnt all I think I can on it, then I will have no hesitation in trying to do for other people asking, what has been done for me.
But I guess you can say, what I meant to say in the first post, which Ive only just realised myself, is I have stopped searching. I have found myself comfortable with a method I am suited to.
And yes, living without that fear of drinking has freed up a lot of me. I want to use that freedom and make up for lost time



And the losing interest of being on recovery sites for me is so much is as you said in so much of what is posted is the AV

sainos

Algorithm and Tatsy..thats articulation

Bulgakova

Tatsy, the research methods are sound in the rat park experiments. It's just some of the conclusions that are questioned. The research discussions do actually tackle this.

As for my goal of posting? I had a thought, like you had a thought. I'm not sure why that is viewed as anything negative. There was no questioning of his recovery at all.

sainos

Bulgakova, do you mind! I'm a she not a he..although the moustache I have grown during the menopause may cause some confusion haha

I think what Tatsy is getting at, is that I did the original post, not to discuss different theories on addiction and recovery methods, but on a different subject. I have already made up my mind and applying my method, opinions on it weren't asked for.
If you want an open discussion on the theories of addiction and the effectiveness of different recovery methods..why not start a thread on it?

soberlicious

I recovered using AVRT-esque methods. I came to SR 4 years after becoming a non-drinker. I definitely enjoyed learning specifics about the method and talking with others who could put words to the unease and cognitive dissonance I had experienced in traditional "recovery" programs. Though I had no name for how I ended my addiction, there was definitely a separation at play, whereby I decided that was "not me" and that anything having to do with excuses to drink would be dismissed. Although I've enjoyed the discussions over the years, I too have drifted away from SR and anything to do with recoveryism. In my life, I've found that modeling behaviors of the never addicted has been just as valuable as looking to those who have beat their addictions. People find that weird for me to say, as there is the theory that only someone who has gone through addiction can understand my struggle, but I've found it not to be the case. In looking at successful, happy people who have never experienced substance addiction, I can see ways of thinking and living that are effective. I don't have to have support from strictly those who have been addicted to end my addiction.

sainos

Soberlicious, How interesting that you came to that yourself! Although AVRT is based on what people who stopped themselves had to say about how they did it, isn't it? haha. I agree with you about the value of not just hanging about people who had addictions to get valuable insights to life, this is one of the reasons I need to broaden my now narrow horizons I have created for myself over the years.
It is good to talk to people you have things in common with, and epecially like a godsend, to talk to people who understand the method you are using to stop not drink.
But like you said, hanging out with never-addicted people is invaluable.
As AVRT seperates the addiction to the substance, from the person, once you get rid of the addictive behaviour, you are left with a person who still has the same trails and tribulations in life as someone never addicted. So there is no reason not to find value in how the never-addicted cope with things in their lives.
Thank you for your post, very refreshing

Fusion

The whole point of research is to determine conclusions. It's my understanding that the research methods weren't questioned, but as you agree, the conclusions were.

Bulgakova, I don't believe you questioned the OPs recovery; but the recovery method. Being a recently recovered (saved) person, via the same method, I'm rather touchy when I read, what I understood to be, a negative post. If your post wasn't intended to be negative regarding AVRT, then please accept my sincere apology.

In any event, I do wish you well in your journey towards sobriety and hope it's shorter than mine.

soberlicious

sainos,
Yes, very true...AVRT is based on strategies/methods of the self-recovered. There are untold numbers of people who've employed a variation of this method and never speak about it. Makes sense, since most self-recovered view "recovery" as a very private matter. Because of that, it's hard to get data or information from that population.

The grave concern that I have with the recovery movement as it stands today (in the US at least) is that so many recoveryisms are taken as fact. The idea that one simply *cannot* end their addiction if they don't publicly label themselves an alcoholic is false. This leads many who are on a good path to doubt themselves, to fall back and allow the beast to take over...all because they don't understand the method of separation. Treating the addicted as if they are idiots, cannot think for themselves, or follow a plan without the help of others (or a higher power) send the message loud and clear "Do not believe in yourself. You are not capable." That concerns me a great deal.

sainos

It concerns me too sober.
Recoveryism is taking ever bigger steps in the UK. The NHS used to offer a service for addiction based on one-to-one counselling, cbt, psychotherapy and group therapy (not that I think any of this worked)
But now their service is an outpatient 12 step rehab 5 days a week in which you also have to attend 3 AA meetings a week in the evening.
I no longer believe CBT/REBT/MBT etc work in helping not drinking, for me (I worked Smart for years and found it useful to cope with other things though). But the way things have gone in the NHS, choice has gone out of the window.
And with that, more people are being coached that there is only one way out of addiction, and you play by their rules, or you stay in your addiction.

Even the NHS workers do not believe for a second ANYONE can end their addiction themselves, as you say, what message is this sending to people?
My "recovery coach" said I sounded insane when I finally said, enough, I'm doing it on my own.
She and no one else at that recovery centre had heard of AVRT except one man, who said he had read "all about it" and it wouldn't work. Didn't I realize the AV was me? That was me talking to myself (yeah, well, he understood AVRT well then didn't he? NOT haha)
Which is why I had to either stay there and listen to stuff I really didn't believe in, or break away and do AVRT alone. I can't believe the almost emotionally violent reaction that comes from people when you tell them you are doing it alone! Although, to be fair the man at the recovery team who had the worst reaction, was a former addict.

GerandTwine

After many years of “never drinking” taking up zero minutes in my life, I joined SR in 2012 to engage in AVRT discussions in SC. This is one of those good threads in Secular Recovery that will serve people well over time, and I believe will become part of the multifarious history of addiction recovery itself.

Regarding chemical dependency upon alcohol and drugs, a phenomenal paradigm shift occurred in Western thought in 1840-1843, when it became common knowledge that drunkards could quit for good upon making a pledge of total abstinence, because many tens of thousands did just that. It was the original Washingtonian Movement. It took only three years for social forces to attack, devour, digest, and destroy that movement which was based on the pristine pledge of total abstinence. Even the history of the original Washingtonians has been skewed to give it some semblance to AA. In essence, they were polar opposites.

Rational Recovery re-introduced that pledge in the Big Plan several decades ago. The pledge mode of quitting has never gone away and can never be eliminated, because it is so individually empowered and it makes such good sense for so many reasons. But that didn’t keep predators away, or many drunkards from lying about making the pledge.

Over the last 175 years, the history of the Recovery Group Movement and the Addiction Treatment Industry is an amazingly convoluted one of opportunism practiced by people from all walks of life: in churches, in governments, doctors, lawyers, non-profits, to name a few. A prime directive of these parties involvement in recovery was and still is (except for RR) to bastardize the pristine pledge by adding special interest clauses, or to declare the pledge as bad or impossible to begin with. There are simply not a lot of services to be provided when the unconditional pledge of permanent abstinence is taken. And then, of course, those newly abstinent people need to be shown the correct way of living and believing! So pledging required Way of Life codicils rendering them ineffective against the AV, there was always a way out - to drink again. "Oh, doggonnit, God isn't helping me, ... so I might as well have a drink."

Addiction scientists use the plasticity of the brain to create a questionable construct of physical areas of disease or behavioral phases of disease that can be changed over time. Every time I have brought up the effect of The Big Plan upon the plasticity of the brain with addiction scientists, they all immediately associate it to someone going through a huge religious re-birth, or “I found Jesus” type of experience. Not so at all.

There is every likelihood the Big Plan DOES exert the greatest possible mind-driven influence upon the plasticity of the brain when it is made. But it is a very specific change. I believe that happened to me and it had nothing to do with being reborn. It was like learning whether or not to touch the glowing orange circle on the glass stovetop. The Big Plan, the Washingtonian Pledge of 1840, created a very real and major short circuit to every option leading to drinking again.

And because of that plan, “I cannot drink anymore.” Hah, yes, that sentence does make sense to me here way, way, on the other side of addiction. It doesn’t even matter why I quit. I just know I did.

sainos

Brilliant, thank you for that back history! And the insight into addiction scientists attitudes!
Those "recovery councellors" that work for the NHS put themselves across as "independant" recovery workers. Although they are now sending everyone they can to 12-step rehab. (in my area anyway). They even have a class called "breaking down the myths of AA" just incase anyone has "heard" anything bad about AA. So removing any notion that you might have an opinion on it. You are just misinformed, by "whatever" you have "heard"
This, from a public funded service that is advertised as giving a "rounded" view of recovery.
It's a shocking situation that is developing in NHS funded recovery services in the UK.
AA has always been there, and some people will always get some good out of it, if thats what they want.
Smart recovery is there if people want it, and find it useful.

But nowhere, in the "recovery industry" do you find anyone encouraging anyone to take the pledge, make a Big Plan, or even have the mad thought of going it alone!
The NHS is massively strapped for money, the addiction services they do offer are stretched to the limit, the waiting lists months long even get to see anyone.
Their stratergy to deal with this?
No, don't give the people who decide they want to go it alone after seeing what is on offer, any encouragement or information about doing just that.
Instead, use public funds to send them to an expensive out-patient rehab while others are sitting rotting on the waiting list, and do all you can to encourage them to become as dependant on others and the overstretched service you provide as possible, if they REALLY want to stop drinking
And actively and aggressively discourage anyone who even thinks about just quitting without "back-up services"
Your post is very informative, an eye opener. I don't mind that I can never drink again...I like even better that I don't drink now, and won't ever again.
Say that to a NHS recovery worker, and they will choke on their Starbucks (actually mine did splutter on hers a bit)