thomas11

God, my spelling is horrible. I just re-read my post. Embarrassing.

LadyBlue0527

Wow, what a thread. You're a well educated young man who is truly interested in the whys of society and the current situation that you're in.

I'm going to insert a little dose of reality for you. Here is an excerpt of your very first post on this thread:

Now, let's scroll further in and take a look:

Coupled with the first quote where does the word "only" belong in that statement?

Finally, take a look at your question:

Your degree is in Psychology. The dictionary defines this as the study of the fundamental nature of knowledge, reality, and existence, especially when considered as an academic discipline.

After reading the definition, rereading the excerpt of your first post, and then the question you presented in the last quote, ask yourself the question you posed to us again. Does it make sense?

Please don't take me as snarky. Your mindset reminds me much of my attitude when I walked away from sobriety 19 months ago. I abstained from alcohol for 17 months and walked away because of those very same questions. I can't divulge the reason I am back here but suffice it to say that in the end, it wasn't my mindset that beat me. It was the failure to realize what alcohol had done to my body and I was none the wiser until it happened. For me the decision was solely based on how smart I could be about my usage. If I went 17 months without how did I know I really had a problem? I did pretty well for a period of time. Even at the beginning of this month took a six pack to a friends and left 2 beers there after having been there for 4 hours. Yay me! Not so much. Again, what happened had nothing to do with the ability of me to control how much I drank. It's what my body took over and did because of what alcohol has done to it.

Please believe me, you can roll the dice over and over again and win. There's going to come a time when you're number will come up the wrong way. That's a solemn promise.

Please think about this and keep up the work that you're doing. You will never regret it. If you don't there are no guarantees.

TorchedGrave

I don't understand your question, and which statement are you referring to? I think the confusion (on your part) arises from the fact that, in the first quote, I said "... for what seems like an eternity," (in reference to quitting) so maybe that's where the conflict with "only" comes in. But I think the key phrase there is "seems like."

You mean philosophy.

The question makes sense irrespective of any definition you pulled up or of the question's relation to or conjunction with other stuff that I've said in the past. Your question is whether my question makes sense, not whether, upon rereading earlier stuff I had said, I can now answer my own question.


Well I've stated this before, but my drinking was largely the result of boredom. I drank way more during the summer than during the semester, and I drank more during weekends than during schooldays. It's no coincidence that the two longest periods of sobriety that I had attained were during times that I was busy. Drinking was filling a void for me. So, has the drinking caused physical changes in my body? Almost certainly. But has this change been so significant to the extent that my body will now take control of me because of what alcohol has done to it? Who knows.

Sure that's the law of large numbers. It's inevitable. And it's also inevitable that if I stood in the middle of the street long enough, I'd get hit by a car, but that doesn't mean I should never go outside. It's like how cops like to say, if you follow someone driving for long enough, you'll eventually catch them doing something illegal.

I know I won't regret it. Any relapse, even the slightest one, will cause me to feel regret, but in no world would I regret not drinking. Sure I might miss it sometimes, but I never wake up and say, "I regret this decision." And like I said in a previous post, my not drinking isn't causing me stress, so maybe I'm lucky.

LadyBlue0527

Hi Torched Grave, please let me start by stating that I purposely asked you not to take my post as being snarky. I may sometimes say things the wrong way but my intent is always the care and concern for another human being who's dealing with this tremendously disgusting situation.

First, yes, I meant philosophy, my bad.

As far as my comment on the word "only" stop and think about this. As young as you are, in two years time you got to where you are with alcohol. So when you say you've "only" been drinking for those two years time is no longer relative. It's some pretty devastating stuff. We use words like "only" to minimalize the seriousness of the situation. How can you go from saying that you had been through withdrawal that was arguably the most scariest experience in your life, and then ask if it makes sense that if you don't give it another shot then you'll never know if the last three months have been for naught? If you think that withdrawal was scary the last time through, each time, it's worse. You're willing to risk that yet you think you still need to test the waters. So to me, that makes no sense. You don't see that there's already a problem that's beyond drinking due to boredom.

I think of how many times I read posts on this board and thought that I would never come to some of the situations that I was reading, I would never get there. I was oh so very wrong. I would give back every drink I took between the time I stepped away from sobriety to now if I could undo recent events that led me back.

I guess that each person that travels this road has to come to that same conclusion on their own.

I just know that as long as I am on this board I'm going to do everything I can to send the message that this will never get better. Ever. It only gets worse and if you think you have any idea of how bad it can get, think again. Still, I understand that you have to find that out for yourself.

I care and that's why I posted what I did. Pretty much all I have to say on the subject.

TorchedGrave

In this case, the duration of time is definitely a relevant factor. All other things being equal, drinking for five years is worse for you than drinking for two years. So when I say I've been drinking for "only" two years, it does make a difference. Virtually any study or article you read states explicitly that duration of drinking is one of the most significant factors in predicting relapse.

Not exclusively. We use words like "only" also when they're accurate. I only have one tumor in my brain. Sure it might kill me, but at least it's one!

You've brought my withdrawals up before, so let me address them directly this time. First, your insight into my experience(s) with withdrawal comes solely from my posts. You don't really know how bad they were, because they were, by definition, subjective. Obviously, since I had never gone through withdrawal before the first time, I had no benchmark against which to compare it. So my calling it a "mild" withdrawal does not necessarily make it so. It could've been more or less mild in an objective sense, just unknown to me, or by extension to you or anyone else on this forum, at the time.

In other words, our self-evaluations are not always accurate. This is the problem inherent with surveys and questionnaires. People are notoriously bad at diagnosing their own internal mental states. As humans, we're all vulnerable to innate cognitive biases. So when I say I may have had a mild experience with withdrawal, I could be downplaying it because I don't want to accept the reality that my problem is as severe as it really is, or I could be overplaying it because the fear/novelty of the withdrawal clouded my objectivity, thus making me believe the situation to be worse than actuality. Either is possible. But again my point is that humans make these mistakes all the time, and often not deliberately.

Don't get me wrong though. I know that withdrawal, in general, is a very serious thing, and that going through one, no matter how "mild," is prima facie evidence that alcohol consumption has caused one's body to react/overreact in an abnormal way. So yes, withdrawal is serious.

My first experience was 10x worse than the second. This is why I say it's highly subjective; it depends to a large extent on the threshold for what one considers proper withdrawal. Hand tremors? Anxiety? DTs? Which of those are necessary/sufficient? My second experience with "withdrawal" was simply not being able to sleep as well while sobering up, which is why I say the first experience was 10x worse because I was experiencing not only a larger quantity of symptoms, but their intensity and duration were also higher.

Alcoholic logic, what can I say?

I don't really see things as necessarily black/white. Research into addiction science is growing every day. There are things that we know now that we never would've imagined were true, say, fifty years ago. Who would've thought that there do in fact exist genes that make certain individuals, given the right environmental triggers, more prone to addiction? These are facts. And they're growing in number everyday. Maybe in another fifty years we'll have a more accurate picture of alcoholism, and maybe then we'll able to look back and say, well, some of these theories were correct; these others weren't. I just think it's too premature to say that we know everything with respect to alcohol and how different individuals become addicted differently. All of this is to say that, there are definitely counterexamples to your claim that it only gets worse. At the moment there simply isn't conclusive evidence to show unequivocally that alcohol is as progressive of a disease as people initially thought. It can be, but not universally so. The mechanisms behind addiction are quite complex, but also very interesting. That was my longwinded way of saying that our knowledge grows everyday, and there are some things that we accept as fact today that at some later date can be rendered false due to new information.

That's cool, because a lot of people don't care. (I don't mean on this forum; I mean people in general.) So thanks for the insight. It's always welcomed!

LadyBlue0527

Torched Grave, I'm grateful for you today.

You helped me to deeply identify with those who are on this board that offer words of caution that fall on deaf ears. Due to this you brought me to a deeper understanding of this disease.

Each person has to walk their own path to find out where it goes. Already previously stated, I know but I have to remind myself.

In between my words what you're reading is due to a fear that I have never experienced in my life. I would trade being in detox right now and going through withdrawals with the agony I am experiencing every waking moment (and last night in my dreams) due to what happened. Yes, it was that bad. Your observations of where you are today and thoughts of the possibility that maybe things are different now reminds me so much of me that it scares me. Does it mean you'll end up where I am? No. I can only tell you that I've never seen a person who returns to this board say "Oh, I'm fine, it went great! I found out I can drink again and don't have a problem!". Yes, that's probably because those who find that out don't return, what's the need? Or, maybe they met the final fate of alcoholism which is death.

For the record one of my favorite things to do is to debate a topic. I can do it without being hot headed and with an open mind. Where alcohol will lead you is not a good topic for me. Most likely due to my own experience so when I see "Maybe this time it will be different" all my rational thought goes out the window due to my experiences.

You are going to do what you're going to do. What the end of the line is for you is something only you can decide.

Be well.

shortstop81

My apologies for suddenly jumping into this thread, but I'd like to respectively challenge you on this. Surely duration can be a factor. But 'explicitly' the most significant factor?

TorchedGrave

Note, I didn't say the most; I said one of the most. And I said virtually any, not all.

See here:

Alcohol Dependence, Withdrawal, and Relapse

"The nature of and extent to which these factors are operable in influencing decisions about drinking not only vary from one individual to another but also depend on the stage of addiction—that is, whether the drinker is at the stage of initial experience with alcohol, early problem drinking, or later excessive consumption associated with dependence. Although many people abuse alcohol without meeting the criteria for alcohol dependence,1 continued excessive alcohol consumption can lead to the development of dependence. Neuroadaptive changes that result from continued alcohol use and abuse (which manifest as tolerance and physiological dependence) are thought to be crucial in the transition from controlled alcohol use to more frequent and excessive, uncontrollable drinking (Koob and Le Moal 2008)."

The operative word here being "continued." You might not read that interchangeably with "duration," but I think they're sufficiently synonymous to make my point valid. Regardless, though, I'd like to reiterate that it's not really possible to pinpoint the one factor that's most significant, because as the above quote states, decisions about drinking vary from one individual to another. But I believe it nonetheless stands that duration/continuation is a huge factor, but, again, the extent to which it is one will vary.

thomas11

TG, I will give you credit. At 22 years old, I find you to be a deep thinker, and its impressive. Speaking only for myself, when I was 22 I was enrolled in college and just beginning what became a fairly successful run at becoming a professional athlete. A true "jock" if you will. I did not think of such things until much later in life.

FYI--I think nice weather is headed your way, its gorgeous here.

TorchedGrave

Yes!

The forecast for Wednesday is 85, with the rest of the week following suit.

Where do you live btw?

frankster

Way to go. Excellent clarity. Good honesty. Never give up. Do whatever it takes. Stay sober. Welcome.

thomas11

Minnesota (for many years typically weather went from west to east, but the last 10+ years, the whole "typical" weather pattern has been blown up.

TorchedGrave

Do I hear 87 degrees?

wpainterw

Do I have to apologize for jumping into this thread? I majored in Philosophy and had a year of Graduate Study in that subject. I started to drink in college and thought and thought about alcohol and while I thought about it I was drinking it off and on. I was never able to think my way to sobriety. The more I analyzed the more I drank. Oh the reasons I gave for this! I drank because.... because.... because and often counselors would imply "If we only discovered why you drink then you might be sober!" Good old Dr. Freud! A real money maker for those who sat behind the fellow on the couch, saying little and making notes on a scratch pad. Meanwhile my body was changing. Marvelous thing the body. When you soak it in alcohol it revs up all those uptake receptors, makes corresponding changes in the transmitters and soon it not only tolerates alcohol but feels quite uncomfortable without it.(cf. Liza Doolittle, "Gin was mother's milk to her!)" So with tolerance you no longer drink for a buzz (or you don't remember doing that). You drink to feel normal and finally you drink to avoid withdrawal. But you're still thinking, "Why do I drink?" Reminds me of Milton's great description of "A gulf profound as that Serbonian bog....where armies whole have sunk." Paradise Lost (what an appropriate title!).
Some folks in AA suggest that it's best to turn your brain off, just do what you're told. I never subscribed to that literally but I did see some sense in the suggestion that too much thinking can impair one's ability to get the show on the road. In some ways drinking is a little like politics (maybe that's why there's so much booze at "fund raisers"). It's like politics because sometimes things get worse and worse until the whole thing hits bottom and people start to say, like the old song, " We gotta get out of this place!" This year, will politics drive us all to drink? Hope not. "Whatchyaself!" as they say in the mobster movies.

W.

TorchedGrave

Not exactly accurate. That's with addiction, not with tolerance. Tolerance is simply one of the many precursors to addiction. It's the beginning of addiction, not addiction per se.

That's where I have to disagree. You can call me naive, and I don't care. A lot of people will chalk this up to my age, because I'm "only" 22. I do definitely think that there are areas in one's life in which overthinking can be counterproductive (e.g., spending two hours thinking about whether the white clothes should be separate from the colored clothes when doing laundry), but I hardly think that this is one of those areas. It's abundantly clear that alcoholism and sobriety are two of the most important parts of some people's lives, particularly on this forum. If they're going to expend their mental energy on something, I hardly think it's a loss to spend time thinking about what ails them the most. But again, this could all vary on an individual basis. Some people simply don't like to think. They prefer to be passive and let someone or something else take the wheel. There's nothing inherently wrong with that. That's just not me.

wpainterw

TorchedGrave:
You wrote: "Not exactly accurate. That's with addiction, not with tolerance. Tolerance is simply one of the many precursors to addiction. It's the beginning of addiction, not addiction per se." Tolerance characterizes the beginning of addiction. Anyway, it's not what it's called. It's what it is.
I certainly think that it's important to think (sorry about the redundancy). I've said I do not agree with those who say you should turn your brain off and just follow orders. But thinking isn't enough. Reading isn't enough. Only doing may be enough. Note the "may be." Regrettably it doesn't always work. Recidivism is rampant in these parts. Good luck.

W.

LadyBlue0527

Stated previously, I think you're a well educated young man who has a profound need to dissect alcoholism to try to arrive at personal findings on the subject. You've had your run in so it's of interest to you. Sometimes I read posts in this thread and wonder if we're not all actually part of a thesis. Just a little lame humor there.

Here's my findings on that statement. I have always been independent. Even as a child my mother called me Little Miss Independent. I am a free thinker, always have to do things my way. No one can tell me anything.

Oddly enough though, the one thing that I will get wrong every single time is when I think for myself when it comes to alcohol. This is probably my umpteenth time quitting. My fourth (and final) true hearted attempt. The choice this time has been removed from me. I no longer have the right to think for myself when it comes to alcohol.

You know what? I've never felt a greater relief.

TorchedGrave

Kind of ambiguous.

Final because you're optimistic, in the sense that you feel confident that it's your last attempt? Or final for a different reason? Or do you mean final true hearted attempt, in the sense that any future attempts won't be true hearted?


```

Day 120

The weather tomorrow... That's all I can say.

Soberwolf

Nice numbers TG

LadyBlue0527

Day 120, congratulations! Good to see that number.

Apologies, I wrote the post on the fly. Here's clarification,

Half hearted attempts constitute all the times I woke up with a raging hangover on a weekend morning and swore off alcohol forever. Then, as the week progressed and Friday came near that resolve quickly wore off. Never even gave myself a chance. Tons of those, way too many to count.

Hearted attempts constitutes when I made it 30 days or more. There were a few of these. Rode the crave wave, had the urge but didn't pick up. Although I felt serious about the effort, I knew I was really just punishing myself for a while until I "learned a lesson". Even though I had no setpoint in mind where I would pick up again the thought that it was forever wasn't really the goal. It was to prove that I could go without drinking for a while. Because, if I could do that, then perhaps I really didn't have a problem with alcohol. Sound familiar?

Then came the first, true, whole hearted attempt. That was my last time through. That was it, I was done. I made it 17 months and then I let my resolve go because I had stopped working the program that I was using and walked away from here. One of the biggest mistakes in my life. I made it 19 months out until one fateful day almost three weeks ago.

So, I'll retract that this time is an attempt. I am no longer attempting, I am doing. Right now I am court ordered but that doesn't even matter. What happened will never allow me to be complacent again. The circumstances proved to me that it's no longer about how I feel when I'm drinking and try to gauge how present my mind is. I went into a blackout after having a few drinks. I've had blackouts before but when I woke up in the morning realizing it there was no denial as to why I did. I knew how much I had to drink and it made sense that I blacked out. It didn't happen all the time but when it did, it was understandable why. This time, no. I actually had not even drank the last time in over a week prior. How could a few drinks throw a person into a blackout? Then I realized, my body has come to the point where it can't process alcohol. I am not in control, the alcohol is and it can strike and without warning, That's scary stuff. What happened because of it is even scarier.

So, the choice has been removed and I can no longer deny that alcohol use is not all about my ability to consciously make decisions. There will never be a safe amount of alcohol for me to drink. Ever. This is it. the end of the road. I find great comfort in that.

This is a progressive disease/problem. It never gets better, only worse. It's proven time and time again. All you have to do is read the posts on this board. The question then becomes what it takes for someone in order to get to the point of realizing that alcohol has no place in their life, under any circumstances, and hope that the answer to that doesn't have anything to do with death. Thankfully, it didn't for me but the possibility was there.

Rock bottoms themselves have rock bottoms. I'm done. I wish that years ago I had realized this. The words "that will never happen to me" are false now. The best I can do is to turn this horrific experience into something positive by sharing my story in the hopes that I get through. I don't need to do any more research. My drinking problem is never going to get better. Fini.